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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    [Ret] With 5.3 around the corner...

    How did you guys feel during 5.2?
    It all felt pretty good in regards to PvP.. Except for still having
    to work harder than most classes to stay alive.

    I love the new damage buff coming to us in 5.3, but I would rather
    some more survive ability to be quite honest.


    How about you guys? Enjoy this patch, or looking forward to the next?





  2. #2
    5.2 made Ret a lot better than it was before. Unfortunately Ret was pretty bad before it so that doesn't really say a whole lot.

    In 5.3 we are getting a pretty nice damage buff, but with PvP power going down it will probably keep us around the same amount of damage we do now.

    Blizzard has failed so far at giving Ret more survivability which is what we need most. That trend seems to be continuing into 5.3. And with Healing going down our defense might even be weaker than on live.

    However I did ask Ghostcrawler on twitter about the possibility of bringing back the Cata version of Sacred Shield and this is what he had to say,

    "One of the issues is that Ret mostly takes SH while Prot only takes SS. Maybe both Ret and Prot would want (Cata) SS as a talent. Could replace current talent with the Cataclysm Sacred Shield and give the current one to Prot baseline I guess."

    So it seems like something they might consider. Even though I think the Cata version should be baseline for Ret (and maybe prot). Unfortunately that might not happen for 5.3 at this point.

    Over all I think Ret is and will be in an "ok" spot.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    5.2 made Ret a lot better than it was before. Unfortunately Ret was pretty bad before it so that doesn't really say a whole lot.

    In 5.3 we are getting a pretty nice damage buff, but with PvP power going down it will probably keep us around the same amount of damage we do now.

    Blizzard has failed so far at giving Ret more survivability which is what we need most. That trend seems to be continuing into 5.3. And with Healing going down our defense might even be weaker than on live.

    However I did ask Ghostcrawler on twitter about the possibility of bringing back the Cata version of Sacred Shield and this is what he had to say,

    "One of the issues is that Ret mostly takes SH while Prot only takes SS. Maybe both Ret and Prot would want (Cata) SS as a talent. Could replace current talent with the Cataclysm Sacred Shield and give the current one to Prot baseline I guess."

    So it seems like something they might consider. Even though I think the Cata version should be baseline for Ret (and maybe prot). Unfortunately that might not happen for 5.3 at this point.

    Over all I think Ret is and will be in an "ok" spot.
    I don't quite understand that.
    Regardless of if we do the same amount of damage.. That means other classes will do less.
    Since their PvP Power is going down also.

    Isn't that true? Or have I missed something?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    I don't quite understand that.
    Regardless of if we do the same amount of damage.. That means other classes will do less.
    Since their PvP Power is going down also.

    Isn't that true? Or have I missed something?
    Well, if I remember right... many classes get a damage buff. Wait, ...

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/9135374/

    There.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    I don't quite understand that.
    Regardless of if we do the same amount of damage.. That means other classes will do less.
    Since their PvP Power is going down also.

    Isn't that true? Or have I missed something?
    Relative to other classes we will probably do more "effective" damage than we do now, but we aren't the only class getting buffs. Feral druids for example are getting a 10% physical damage buff. And since the 15% Sword of Light buff only effects 2h weapon damage, spells like Exorcism and Hammer of Wrath will actually do less damage than they do on live. So even if other classes are getting damage and healing nerfs through PvP power, it still means Exo and HoW will hit for less than they do now.

    But more or less I think our damage is fine though. We just need better survivability.
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2013-05-16 at 03:45 AM.

  6. #6
    This is true

    Infracted. Please post constructively. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-05-16 at 02:04 PM.

  7. #7
    Oddly, 5.3 brings more changes to classes then 5.2. Maybe it has something to do with losing 1 million subscribers? Anyway, I'll try to explain what's changed, and what to expect.

    The #1 change has to be resilience is removed from gear, and everyone gets 65% equivalent. What this does is make it less gear dependent for new players to get into PvP. It also makes it viable for classes to use some PvE gear, such as Rets T15 4 set. It also means that world PvP will be dominated by PvE players, since gear isn't scaled back like it will be in 5.3. All gear will be limited to 496 ilvl. Probably rightfully so, since anything being done in the world, will be PvE related. Though it doesn't mean PvP gear isn't still better for PvP, but it doesn't make you god over someone who doesn't have the gear.

    The next big change is that PvP power and resilience gems are getting nerfed. They're also nerfing PvP Power so it's like 50% less effective. What that essentially means is that you want strength and hate gems.

    The final big change is that Sword of Light now increase 2h weapon damage by 30%, which means a 15% damage increase. Probably the least important change concerning Ret, as it's mostly a PvE change then it is a PvP one. Still, more damage is better. This would probably work better with the T15 4 set in PvP.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal saidolol's Avatar
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    pve ret=fucking joke, so bad dps it's sick and discusting

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by saidolol View Post
    pve ret=fucking joke, so bad dps it's sick and discusting
    It's not even half as bad as all the whiners make you believe it is, while some classes are quite far ahead it's hardly "sick and disgusting", get the right tools(Feather, 522 - 541 weapon and 4set T15) and Ret is a lot better than what you make it sound like.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  10. #10
    Field Marshal saidolol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    It's not even half as bad as all the whiners make you believe it is, while some classes are quite far ahead it's hardly "sick and disgusting", get the right tools(Feather, 522 - 541 weapon and 4set T15) and Ret is a lot better than what you make it sound like.
    yea, and maybe get martin thunder while iam at it?

  11. #11
    Huh, well, I play Ret at an average level I suppose. Got my gear more or less optimized, and I got more or less steady rotations, but not flawless play in any way, and I still do comparable dps to other classes with equal average ilevel, which for me is about 500. We might be a bit low compared when you have elite players (I have no knowledge of this), but at least from LFR and dungeons, it doesn't seem that we are doing shitty dps, so it's not like we suck. I always welcome a dps buff though
    Mother pus bucket!

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Ret is in a fair place. Not a good, barely decent. I always look at other specs toolkits and I know the weight of every tool.

    Mostly, CCs work better than anything else since it can guarantee a kill if done in sequence as much as to guarantee a base capture on BGs, not to mention for peels. So CCs are great utility, defensive and ofensive and the game must be balanced arround it. I will not count here the amount of CC others have right now, but I will if someone says something against instant Rep and 1 min Blind.

    For Ret AND PROT only, ordered by priority:

    MUST:
    1) Instant Repentance (think BASELINE PARALYSE for Monks - this is not OP, is a MUST)
    2) 1min CD Blinding Light (6 secs, dot breakable CC - 2 mins is way out of hand, look at other classes CDs),
    3) Bring back the Glyph of Magic BoP (nice on Cata, not a reason to remove it)
    4) 2min Devotion aura OR make it last for 10 secs (3 mins is a joke, 6 secs does not help a lot for the CD)
    5) Absolve on Hand of Salvation, so we don't have to trade a mitigation hability for a dispel (duh)
    6) Hammer of Righteous have no need for a target, like Divine Storm is now (Ret's AoE already suck enough as it is)
    7) Emancipate for PROT FC (WHY NOT GIVE TO IT ALREADY? What could this disbalance for the game?)
    8) Absolve for PROT FC (Same as Emancipate, give SOME reason to take a Pala Prot as FC on BGs)
    9) Better movement (maybe a glyph) for some kind of leap/interevene or a glyph to reduce the CD of Light's Speed for PROT FC ONLY

    Nice to have:
    5) Make Divine Prot usable silenced/stuned OR remove some type of CC (fear/stun/disorient),
    6) Old SS whould help a LOT on survival


    Defensives must be reliable and the CDs must not be so spread out too. Think how most of the BIG defensives have lower CD than 5 mins. Think how a lot now can be used without dropping the flag/orb. Dispersion, Zen Meditation, Dark Bargain... those are just some. Low CD, does not drop flag/orb and get almost the same as immune for a while with some cost. Take a look at how much just Dark Regeneration and Unending Resolve are WAY better than Second Wind and Shield Wall.

    So, for Ret we have a BIG OLD PROBLEM called: Divine Shield. Nowdays, every spec can do some bubble effect on lower CD than 5 mins. Anti Magic Shell, Might of Ursoc+Survival Instincts (etc), Deterrence, Iceblock, Zen Meditation/Difuse Magic, Dispersion, Vanish/Combat Readiness/Cloak/Evasion, Shamanistic Rage, Dark Regeneration/Unending Resolve/Sacrificial Pact/Dark Bargain, Second Wind/Defensive Stance/Shield Wall. Those are all relevant defensive CDs, with CDs lower than 5 mins and therefore more reliable (usable more than once in a medium battle).

    My point here is that Divine Shield is the big defensive that the Paladin Class is balanced arround and it is too strong and therefore have a way too long CD. The game as it is, we need shorter CD defensives almost as strong.

    My sugestions? Just some ideas for Ret/Prot only:

    - Baseline Umbreakable Spirit, Divine Shield does not dispel all effects, and some other spell like Divine Protection remove a CC.
    - Hand of Protection no longer immune Physical, instead give a 50% reduction to all damage and everyone can attack with it and (maybe) on 3 mins CD.


    And then Paladins are golden for PVP.

    This or fix the other classes/specs.
    Last edited by Cronosmash; 2013-05-16 at 03:54 PM.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Faesroll View Post
    It's not even half as bad as all the whiners make you believe it is, while some classes are quite far ahead it's hardly "sick and disgusting", get the right tools(Feather, 522 - 541 weapon and 4set T15) and Ret is a lot better than what you make it sound like.
    Seriously, I'm sick of people saying it's not as bad as people make it out to be based on their own biased personal experiences because when you actually measure it out with people who actually know what they're doing, every class has a DPS spec ahead of ret:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

    Please stop denying reality.

  14. #14
    Pandaren Monk solvexx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Seriously, I'm sick of people saying it's not as bad as people make it out to be based on their own biased personal experiences because when you actually measure it out with people who actually know what they're doing, every class has a DPS spec ahead of ret:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

    Please stop denying reality.
    I hardly think a DPS bot is really anything to go by.
    Plus.. You really shouldn't personally attack someone
    just because their opinion differs from yours.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    I hardly think a DPS bot is really anything to go by.
    Plus.. You really shouldn't personally attack someone
    just because their opinion differs from yours.
    lol how is he attacking someone? you must be a really oversensitive nerd to feel attacked just because someone says "Please stop denying reality."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Seriously, I'm sick of people saying it's not as bad as people make it out to be based on their own biased personal experiences because when you actually measure it out with people who actually know what they're doing, every class has a DPS spec ahead of ret:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

    Please stop denying reality.
    There's an easy way to measure exactly how effective a class's spec is working in PvP.

    Step #1 Visit the damage dealing forums.

    Step #2 Look for threads that complain about getting killed by it.

    Step #3 Count them up. The more you see, and the bigger the threads, the more likely it's working perfectly fine.

    I can assure you there's not a single thread complaining about a Ret Paladin killing them. Not this expansion anyway.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire Cronosmash's Avatar
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    For someone to say that Ret DPS is good... the same person must think Lock DPS is low. For the Ret to be doing the same amount of damage as the other top DPS - the Ret must be a 2x better player.

    Really, I NEVER see a "LF Ret" for NOTHING EVER.

    That's a FACT.

    This does not mean Ret is rock botton, but as Reith said (and well said): every class have at least one DPS spec way ahead of Paladin Ret.

    This is not right. Even Druid as Hybrids (if the term still apply) have both DPS specs ahead of the only Paladin DPS.
    Last edited by Cronosmash; 2013-05-17 at 12:39 PM.
    "I notice my rating actually boosts when I remember to have fun. Playing competitively while also enjoying yourself and focussing on having good games instead of getting rating is way more important.
    After 2.2k the fun devolves into a twisted realm suffering and despair and you will quit pvp from extreme traumatic stress and you will probably xfer to Moon Guard and join some Belf rp guild and become a prostitute in Silvermoon."by Clukclukbewm

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronosmash View Post
    For someone to say that Ret DPS is good... the same person must think Lock DPS is low. For the Ret to be doing the same amount of damage as the other top DPS - the Ret must be a 2x better player.

    Really, I NEVER see a "LF Ret" for NOTHING EVER.

    That's a FACT.

    This does not mean Ret is rock botton, but as Reith said (and well said): every class have at least one DPS spec way ahead of Paladin Ret.

    This is not right. Even Druid as Hybrids (if the term still apply) have both DPS specs ahead of the only Paladin DPS.
    I never said it was good, I said it wasn't as "sick and disgusting" as people make believe. Like I said once you get feather, a proper weapon and 4 piece it's pretty decent. And just to clarify, decent doesn't mean competing with warlocks and rogues but being able to stand your ground and not be a liability to your raid. There's genuinely no reason to not bring a player who knows what hes doing not to a raid because "He's Ret".

    PvP on the other hand is a whole different story but let's not get into that.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Colmadero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidolol View Post
    pve ret=fucking joke, so bad dps it's sick and discusting
    I may not be in a top 10 raiding guild or anything or the sort, but I'm a paladin with 509 ilvl and I always am around 1-4 top dps of my 25 man raiding guild

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:08 PM ----------

    Also, look at my Armory profile. I may not be the best ret paladin around, but I get by.
    Quote Originally Posted by themightysven View Post
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    My armory

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by colmadero View Post
    I may not be in a top 10 raiding guild or anything or the sort, but I'm a paladin with 509 ilvl and I always am around 1-4 top dps of my 25 man raiding guild
    Also, look at my Armory profile. I may not be the best ret paladin around, but I get by.
    Statements like the one here, while certainly relevant to you, are not at all valid or useful in stack ranking anything. Your sample size is far too small, with too many variables, and too anecdotal to be useful. I'm not saying you're bad or your guild is, that's great that you're doing well in the context of your team, but it does not bear any real weight in terms of class performance.

    Not that the gentleman you quoted is right, either. Ret is not sick, nor disgusting, but it is certainly not tier1 (a la Lock/Rog). But, then again, not everyone cant be. The SoL buff will certainly help, but as stated prior, most of our "competition" is also getting commensurate buffs, so I don't think anyone should expect a significant shift in the stack ranks or paradigms.

    "LF Ret then GTG" said no one, ever. Still.
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