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  1. #21
    So now we are comparing hobby to someone's job? Both pro athletes and pro gamers are getting paid because its theirs job.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    Can't people play games for the sake of playing games anymore?
    Sure - but if the end game content is ruined by baselining a game around ultra casual play, then it is no longer an enjoyable challenge. Why play a game if you're instantly as good as everyone else by not doing anything with skill and actually continuing to play gets you nowhere?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    lol that is the day I officially quit

    what I liked about wow is that it valued talent and skill. LFR already makes raiding almost effortless, every noob gets arena gear too. There's no sense of accomplishment anymore
    Just wait for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    Can't people play games for the sake of playing games anymore?
    Single player games? Sure! Competitive? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by nomadwgk View Post
    So now we are comparing hobby to someone's job? Both pro athletes and pro gamers are getting paid because its theirs job.
    Sports for the vast mayority of people IS a hobby. The difference here is that there is simply no reward whatsoever for higher ratings in PvP that is substantial in any kind of way the only exception being rank 1 stuff which can only be gained by a very small ammount of people. Basically if you can't push rank 1 there is no reason to try to get a higher rating at any point.

  4. #24
    People need to stop feeling a sense of entitlement around gear in PvP.

    If you are more skilled than another person or team, you will win.

  5. #25
    Haha, I always thought Skills > Gears, look someone trying to stay ahead of the majority and gain an unfair advantage.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    ..titles, prestige, adding special tabards, cloaks, gear, etc for high ratings. Most people don't pvp for a gear grind. they pvp to pvp and gain the prestige that comes with being good at it. It's all for looks. They want pvp to be on an even field, as it should be. gear should not win fights for you.
    QFT

    if you pvp for gear, you aren't 'wrong' but I feel it is the wrong reasons.

    Should always be skill vs skill. You die, try to improve. High ratings should give vanity gear, to 'show off' your higher skill level. That is the excuse people have all the time about old wow and it being less 'accessible', that you could tell a great player by their 'gear', it was prestige and something to aspire to; vanity gear give just that ... the visual standout, prestige, and something to aspire to. When that isn't enough, you are basically saying you can't attain that high of a rank, or you don't want a challenge.

    Usually all I think about when pvpers complain about gear is 'oh shit, I won't be grossly overpowered so I can't guarantee a gank any longer'. The only real reason ganking can be ok, is when it used to get people to bring their mains/guildies/pvpers from cities ... and the ganker wouldn't just run away when opposition showed up.

    If you are afraid that pve geared player will kill you ... practice more pvp. Your reaction times, your knowledge of classes, cds, dr, etc should be far superior, even at a slight power disadvantage in the open world. In arenas and bgs ... everyone should be on equal footing. period. I guarantee that person stuck at 1200 rating cannot kill you, at equal gear, if you are really a 2600 rated player. If they can, they are stuck with a bad team, or you are carried on yours, or both.

    Playing IS the reward. The thrill of battle. Surviving against all odds. Even losing a good or underdog fight can feel satisfying. In BGs, sometimes you losing a fight, but holding them off a bit is what gives the win ... with equal gearing, skill will determine how long the better player(s) holds the objective against a greater force.

    It is fun now and then to be OP, I won't lie. I recall times in lower bgs in full heirlooms on random alts ... holding a flag in AB against 4+ players for minutes, waiting for noob backup to quit fighting in roads It can also be a thrill; but less of one when you are in a group of overgeared players stomping on a few undergeared underskilled players.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryft View Post
    People need to stop feeling a sense of entitlement around gear in PvP.

    If you are more skilled than another person or team, you will win.
    Other stuff as a motivation would work just as well, mounts/pets for certain ratings starting at 1,8 and then every 200-400 rating you get the same thing just with more spikes/nicer colors. The problem is, there is nothing like that.

  8. #28
    I always found PVP gear a weird concept, to be honest. I mean, if one person has way better gear than another, skill isn't even a factor anymore, whereas if everyone has the same level of gear, skill will be what decides who is actually good, and who simply has a lot of time to farm honor/conquest points.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryft View Post
    People need to stop feeling a sense of entitlement around gear in PvP.

    If you are more skilled than another person or team, you will win.
    Except for when classes and abilities are so ridiculously similar it doesn't come down to skill, it comes down to whoever pressed their one-shot macros first... and I don't consider that skill.

  10. #30
    Ok, I agree with LFR, it destroyed the motivation for cooperative play and the excitement of "progressing" through the raid instance.

    I see PvP as a bit different though. Reward for playing well, I get it. Currently playing well will only raise the cap of how many conquest points you can earn per week and thus get geared faster but ultimately, everyone will end up with the same gear. You do get titles/prestige to some extent but hopefully you're having fun too. That's not entirely wrong, next season good players will gear up faster and inititally at least, win the 'arms race', temporarily.

    Since it's rated, you're basically fighting people with relatively the same amount of gear and skill as you so where do you truly benefit from gear anyway? Is the point of getting pvp geared so you can anihilate anyone in BG's without even trying or applying any skill? Gear never ever 'sticks with you' even if you need a higher rating to get them, next season, everyone will be able to get them so I'm not sure what rewards people really want.

    If it's "I'm already better than most and thus I need better gear so I can create a wider divide between me and my competition" then I see a flaw in that. There's already a pretty big divide in gear within BG's....RBG's/Arena, you'll face people similar to you.

    Then again, WAY too many pvpers gear up and then stop playing meaning the gear they just got means nothing whatsoever. If you don't have fun doing it, just don't do it.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryft View Post
    People need to stop feeling a sense of entitlement around gear in PvP.

    If you are more skilled than another person or team, you will win.
    no because the game is far from balanced

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Chestbrah View Post
    Sure - but if the end game content is ruined by baselining a game around ultra casual play, then it is no longer an enjoyable challenge. Why play a game if you're instantly as good as everyone else by not doing anything with skill and actually continuing to play gets you nowhere?
    The whole point is that your skill determines if you are as good as everyone else, not your gear. If you're truly better than someone, you don't also need to be given a gear advantage on top of it in order to win.

  13. #33
    PVP gear feels like, say, you play football (or soccer for Americans), and as you win more games, your goal gets smaller and smaller. It just... makes no sense.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    The whole point is that your skill determines if you are as good as everyone else, not your gear. If you're truly better than someone, you don't also need to be given a gear advantage on top of it in order to win.
    Then I've won and got a higher rating than he has, which gives me what? Oh wait right, nothing. He gets the exact same stuff I do! (Not talking about gear here, but about everything else there is such as mounts. He'll get the RBG mount aswell, just slower.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynneiah View Post
    PVP gear feels like, say, you play football (or soccer for Americans), and as you win more games, your goal gets smaller and smaller. It just... makes no sense.
    Just that irl teams who win a lot buy better players and win even more eventually winning tournaments, loads of money and other stuff.

    Try taking away champions league, take away trophies, money rewards, titles and other stuff and see what will happen to football even on a very fundamental level.

  15. #35
    Just to compare to actual sports, since someone brought that up, both golf and bowling give the lower skilled competitors handicap in order to raise them to a comparative level as the higher skilled people.

    Can you imagine if it was the baddies that got the better gear instead of the good players? Like if the highest tier gear required a rating BELOW a certain thresshold? Use your imagination a little bit and you'll figure out what those ramifications would be. Now you see why the whole idea of more power depending on your skill level is ridiculous no matter who gets the power increase.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Chestbrah View Post
    Except for when classes and abilities are so ridiculously similar it doesn't come down to skill, it comes down to whoever pressed their one-shot macros first... and I don't consider that skill.
    Oh I agree - but that is a problem with abilities, not gear. (The toolsets every class has in wow need to be completely reevaluated imo.)

    I will never agree with gear being used as an advantage.

    If I get beaten by someone, I want it to be beacuse I got outplayed - not outgeared.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Other stuff as a motivation would work just as well, mounts/pets for certain ratings starting at 1,8 and then every 200-400 rating you get the same thing just with more spikes/nicer colors. The problem is, there is nothing like that.
    Thats a really good idea and I wish Blizzard would introduce more things like that.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Then I've won and got a higher rating than he has, which gives me what? Oh wait right, nothing. He gets the exact same stuff I do! (Not talking about gear here, but about everything else there is such as mounts. He'll get the RBG mount aswell, just slower.)
    First of all, this thread IS about gear, so you can't just remove it from the conversation.

    Second, your reward is getting the title or the mount faster. Blizzard has stated that often, similar to why you can still get Ulduar mounts or Lich King titles, etc.

    Just that irl teams who win a lot buy better players and win even more eventually winning tournaments, loads of money and other stuff.

    Try taking away champions league, take away trophies, money rewards, titles and other stuff and see what will happen to football even on a very fundamental level.
    Professional sports teams are a business. You can't compare some random schmuck playing battlegrounds to the owner of the New England Patriots.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    The whole point is that your skill determines if you are as good as everyone else, not your gear. If you're truly better than someone, you don't also need to be given a gear advantage on top of it in order to win.
    Again bringing up someone's previous point - the game is far from balanced, and thus no matter what it won't be a "skill vs skill" fight. Unless you're fighting the same class, same spec, in the exact same gear... which, you know, would be really enjoyable to be doing all the time.

  19. #39
    Stood in the Fire RyokuchaMidori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    I'm actually considering trying out PvP again for the first time since TBC.

    And when did "just to play" stop being an acceptable reason to participate in a competitive activity in a game?
    This ! Some Pvpers do it just because they like it, getting better gear is just the cherry on the cake.
    "Skill, as the world of warcraft goes, is only in question between equals in pvp power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

    Thucydides : " The Melian dialogue".

  20. #40
    If I get beaten by someone, I want it to be beacuse I got outplayed - not outgeared.
    I just can't resist not to comment. Don't you all start with the same gear? Who's fault is that you got outgeared?
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

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