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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    They're fixing cross-realm arena+merge arena all arena battlegroups. Should help increase participation and gladiator spots
    Stop making me hopeful.
    ):

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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    why is there pve gear progression but not for pvp?you high skilled pvers need better gear then the rest of wow?why?i want to do end game raids but gearing up for it is to hard,change it.its not fair,it supposed to be about fun,its all about skill not gear.RF should have the same gear as heroic raids,not everyone has the time to waste raiding herioc 25 man raids every day.not every one belongs to top end raiding guilds.

    see how fuckign dumb that sounds?thats all you pvers are saying about gear scaling in pvp.stop crying the game is in easy mode now compared to what it once was.maybe thats why wow has been going down hill since wrath.o thats right you tell me in wrong about that to.
    PvE and PvP are two different beasts, and if you don't understand why one has gear progression each tier, and the other one doesn't, then nothing anyone says is going to appease you. You were right about one thing though, all that gibberish you typed up really does sound 'fuckign dumb'.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Even on counter strike - if you won the first round you had more money to buy better weapons than your enemies. Even counter strike HAD a minimal sense of progression and achievement and reward.
    well that's why cs is actually kind of a bad game unless you're playing on infinite $ or deathmatch servers

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Lies and more lies. Look at sport irl. People don't play just for the fun, there are millions in rewards and pay on the table.
    Yes, because everyone who plays sports is a professional...oh wait, no they're not. In fact 99.99% (give or take) of the people who play organized sports in the world play for free...actually check that, most pay others so they can play.

    The NBA employees about 430 professional basketball players in two countries, in the US alone there are 26.3 million people who play basketball. Using the 0.00163% of a population to justify a point is beyond silly.

  5. #125
    I stopped pvping when they started removing progression back in wotlk, well right as cata came out I guess - started with the honor weapons, and now it's gotten to the point of no return lol. PvP is fun when you are battling other people, but it's even more fun when something is on the line - they took out the rating requirements and in the process took out a major reason why people are competitive.... yeah, it's fun to go around and just kill people regularly, but for me at least, it was a lot more interesting when there's a purpose behind it.

    Now to make PvP interesting they are doing dire things like taking resil out of the game - I don't think this will make much of a difference because resil has been replaced with PvP power.... they'd honestly have to take both out, otherwise PvP power will have the same effect that resil did in the first place. But anyways, beyond that, I really don't think that change will make as many people PvP as blizz thinks it will.

  6. #126
    So, casual has the same PVP gear as you high rating are ?

    Did you usually...

    1. Get carried by your friend to 2200+ then bought your High Rating gear, and go to Random BG/WPVP pawn everyone there ... but can't do it anymore ?

    2. Bought Rating to some Rating Seller then bought your High Rating Gear, and go to Random BG/WPVP pawn everyone there ... but can't do it anymore ?

    3. Sell Rating, but can't do it anymore cause none give a damn about it, since they can bought it without rating ?

    4. .... ( can't think anything else atm )

  7. #127
    If you thought PvP couldn't get worse... blizzard balanced PvP based on what people said in the forums... Noobs who don't even PvP, were giving advice on how classes should be... that's worst idea ever... would you ask a 6 year old about how to take out and clean your corroboratory?[/QUOTE]

    A lot of newbs players do understand more about pvp then blizzard. Blizzard defended warriors when they were op saying tfb stacks were a learn to play issue and gag order was ok. But even a 1200 rated players could tell that was overpowered. It took blizzard months to finally change it. Blizzard argued against the player base for a good bit when it came to both hunters and warriors. Look at how horrible season 12 was at the start. They honestly don't know much when it comes to pvp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chestbrah View Post
    ^^ yep. And this is why ratings are completely different than they used to be... because you have geared baddies sitting in the 1400-1600 with full gear that anyone can get easily now. You get a few geared cleaves together in 2s or even 3s and they don't need to have coordination or skill to win the game, they just do it with the gear they got for free and stacking a powerful comp. If there were rating requirements they would have never gotten all the gear in the first place, and thus wouldn't be saturating the playing field.
    Its mostly the rbg heroes who got free t2. A 1200 team with max gear is beatable because they are a 1200 team. L2los their cool downs and land yours if they are a 1400-1600 you should destroy them no questions asked. A lot of the players I see in 2's that are playing at 1600 have their 2200 or 2400 achievements in arena. Sometimes I fight multi-glads and arena masters as well.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by prestilence View Post
    There is no one that PvPs to 2k "for fun". It is not fun at all, it is a grind! The only fun you get while doing it, is once you achieve it. So grinding to 2k is an achievement, and in this game achievements merit rewards. And rewards in this game are gear and titles relevant to those achievements.

    BAck to my Blood legion analogy that you seem to not be understanding. Blood Legion would not be what it is today if there was never gear differentiation. Ther wouldnt even be "top guilds". It would be so many new guilds everytime new content is released, and the best would remain instead of top 10, top 100. WHich is comparable to how the pvp ladder works, so if you consider this analogy, a pve with no heroic gear, is similar to the "player reward" style we have currently in pvp.

    The difference is, this style would NOT be effective or even worthwhile in pve. And subscriptions would drop, again. So why is it the go to solution for pvp? Ther are only 2 ways to play wow, pve or pvp... Nothing else, everything falls under those categories. Yet blizzard must have felt at some point that players were discriminating the other play style so much, so they wanted to implement a way to make pvp players feel the can PVE, and vice versa.. The problem is that change came and predicted the rest of the future for the ladder, pvp. Ther is no more reward for pvp. You can argue it as much as you want, and we can chase each others tail all day, but what it boils down to is facts.

    In pve players are rewarded for being "better" than other players through heroic gear, and better heroic gear on harder heroic fights
    In pvp players are rewarded the exact same quality of gear, and is a ceiling, meaning ther is nothing else better. So the only separation is skill.... The problem with skill as a difference, is that balance is NOT always a factor. Frost mages stacking crit gems, ward procs increasing their 30% crit modifier + any addition (gem) crit, resulting in no possible way for any gemmed resilience to counter it. That is NOT balanced.

    To compare to pve, what happens when a boss is too hard? Hot fix, nerf, player buffs to counter encounters, basically changes that allow you to overcome that disadvantage.

    The only time this happens in pvp is at the end of a patch ("suck it up, love blizzard") or dramatic patches that change a character entirely "early season chaos bolts, or warrior heroic striking", which results in a magnitude of tertiary issues in its own. There is no "true" balance in pvp since a class at any given time can manipulate itself over the majority of other players. When DKs are OP, when Rets are OP, when Mage burst is un-livable, etc

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:44 PM ----------



    I would have to disagree here as well, lol.. PRESENTLY, most players dont walk into a BG not because of gear, but because of bots. They plague battlegrounds now and is like fighting my NPC vs Your group of NPCs and lets see who wins. BGs nowadays are like watching 2 computers play chess on the same difficulty setting lol.
    Getting stomped and then figuring out how to counter another teams is hella fun what game do you play?
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2013-05-18 at 03:56 AM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeshiro View Post
    well that's why cs is actually kind of a bad game unless you're playing on infinite $ or deathmatch servers
    Says the communist regime? CS was the biggest trend, the most played game, for at least a good 5 years (2000-2005).
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Birkhoff View Post
    None. You are ultimately treated the same as the noob who finds a mate in trade every week for quick points. Blame the casuals that wanted to get the same gear above average players get, just like they want to get the same gear raiders get. PvP and PvE ruined because of spoiled kids.
    PvE can put you against an opponent for whom you are geared for.
    You can enter skill and gear appropriate PvE as a route to gaining more.
    There is no such progression in PvP where quite rightfully blizzard equated it to being put in raid content without the normal and heroic dungeons in between.

  10. #130
    Brewmaster Xl House lX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmowin View Post
    Been playing this game since wrath. Back then every piece of gear had a rating requirement. Slowly blizzard started removing rating requirements from gear and now have completely gutted the pvp system so that their is absolutely no progression anymore. Unlike raiding where there is always progression the first weeks and months the raid opens and even after that their are still hard modes that give even better gear. I have always been a decent pvper. Nothing special never gotten glad but have always been above 2200-2300ish. So my question is whats the point in pushing high ratings anymore since you get absolutely NO reward for it other than just too play?
    I don't play WoW anymore... but there are a few problems with PvP that makes it a hell hole compared to other more PvP friendly games out there.

    The Problems:
    1. PvP Rewards
    2. Gear

    The fixes:
    1. Begin by removing PvP rewards that change the power of your character. The idea that your power as a character should increase the more you PvP is such a terrible idea. Why? Because it creates this situation where people who do nothing but PvP gain an unfair advantage over those coming in brand new by being way outgeared than them. "Lol thats dumb idea those who play more deserve a reward!" you tell me. Well, those who PvP more should get a reward, but not gear. Maybe transmoggable gear with no stats, tabards, titles, mounts, and pets would work, also maybe Blizzard could introduce a Prestige system of sorts, like certain emblems/etc. that occur next to your name in PvP settings.

    Also, if you PvP a lot, the removal of gear and equalizing everyones stats at the beginning of ever duel/arena/battleground shouldn't be a problem for you, if it is it means you need to PvP more because you haven't learned everything.

    Doing my system will TRULY set the pros from the noobs. Gear should never ever have anything to do with the outcome of a PvP match. I don't win in Halo/CoD cause my bullets and grenades are stronger than other peoples, I win cause I've learned all the tactics and counters. This SHOULD be the same concept with WoW PvP, or any PvP for that matter.

    2. Everyone who participates in PvP should be given a full set of gear for their spec (make it cost gold or something, make it cost SOMETHING to get started in PvP), that is equal in overall power for every class in spec. This is the ONLY gear you can use in PvP settings (and is also gear that cannot be used anywhere else but in PvP settings), world PvP will engage players with PvE gear. Upcoming changes to player baseline resilience should make this a non-problem.

    -Or allow this 'set' of gear to be usable in the world as well, but the gear is not allowed in PvE instances/raids/scenarios.

    The gear 'given' to everyone can be transmogged to look a certain way by PvP transmog items that can help show how much you've earned your dues in the fields of battle. This way you can still distinguish the pros for the noobs, and the aesthetic appeal of the transmoggable items will add incentive to PvP. The gear can also be reforged and gemmed to slightly change the stats according to the players individual playstyle.

    Boom, PvP fixed bitches.

    EDIT: As long as gear that makes your character more powerful is an incentive to PvP exists, the longer PvP will be unbalanced. Of course my fix won't truly fix PvP, but it will make it 100x better at the least. The rest will be up to Blizzard to keep classes as balanced as possible. PvP prowess should ALWAYS reward prestige, not power.

    EDIT #2: Some examples of games that are doing PvP RIGHT:

    -League of Legends: When you win, you earn Riot Points/IP points. These points are spent on new champions/champion skins. This in no way shape or form directly increases your power as a player (and look how popular it is)
    -Call of Duty: Completing challenges earn you new calling cards, emblems, weapon camos, and the ability to add your emblem and clan tag visually to your gun. Going into prestige mode also earns you a new emblem next to your name, as well as earning you extra class slots.
    -Halo: Completing level ups and commendations earn you new armor. (Completely aesthetic, they in no way shape or form make you more or less powerful.)

    EDIT #3: TL;DR: All PvP players are given a set of gear that is equal in power with all the other sets of gear given to other players, and this gear can only be used in PvP settings. (World/Arenas/Duels/Battlegrounds). The PvP set given to you can be reforged, gemmed, and transmogged to your choosing. This gear is not usable in PvE situations. (5-man Instances/Raids/Scenarios).

    PvP rewards that change your power (gear and enchants) are removed. PvP rewards are in turn now items/effects that reward prestige, such as new titles, mounts, pets, tabards, transmog items. A new prestige system could be implemented to help show your valor (such as an emblem or 'aura' around your character in PvP settings). High ratings in Arenas/Rated Battlegrounds award highly prestigious items and effects such as Tabards/Titles/Mounts that are way more appealing visually than rewards earned in normal Battlegrounds/Duels/World PvP (yes items can be bought by dueling now, dueling earns you currency to buy these things, but the duel is 'calculated' similar to an Arena is calculated to avoid abuse by the players).
    Last edited by Xl House lX; 2013-05-18 at 06:12 AM.
    Call me House.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeshiro View Post
    well that's why cs is actually kind of a bad game unless you're playing on infinite $ or deathmatch servers
    Problem is, many other games act the same. Quite some FPS games now even go with "ranks".

    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    Yes, because everyone who plays sports is a professional...oh wait, no they're not. In fact 99.99% (give or take) of the people who play organized sports in the world play for free...actually check that, most pay others so they can play.

    The NBA employees about 430 professional basketball players in two countries, in the US alone there are 26.3 million people who play basketball. Using the 0.00163% of a population to justify a point is beyond silly.
    And again, you're making wrong comparisons because there's nothing else for you to do. People who actually play in organized groups for sports usually play against similar groups and in most cases there is a ranking and rewards even if they're solely bragging right rewards such as medals or a higher ranking. Hell you get medals on goddamn school sport festivals already.

    Stop lying that there doesn't need to be any kind of reward for PvP, we both know that to not be true.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    And again, you're making wrong comparisons because there's nothing else for you to do. People who actually play in organized groups for sports usually play against similar groups and in most cases there is a ranking and rewards even if they're solely bragging right rewards such as medals or a higher ranking. Hell you get medals on goddamn school sport festivals already.
    No, the massive majority play for fun of the competition, they don't play for medals. From loosely organized pickup games, to intramural leagues at high schools, colleges and community centers, the way most people play there are no formal rewards, just winning the games you are play. Even the more organized leagues that have formal award, they mostly consist of a paper certificate that finds it's way in the trash within a few days of receiving it, but it doesn't matter.

    Also, you are changing your argument here, you said that people play sports because there are "millions in rewards and pay on the table", that's a heck of a lot different than getting a certificate or a cheap plastic medal.

    In fact, go find someone playing a pickup sport and ask them to list the reasons why they play, I'm pretty sure "reward" won't even come up on the list. "It's fun", "it helps me stay in shape", "I like to hang with friends" and "it's better than sitting home watching TV" will all place a lot higher.

    I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be some sort of reward for PvP, but this notion that people are driven to play sports because of a monetary rewards is moronic.

    Stop lying that there doesn't need to be any kind of reward for PvP, we both know that to not be true
    First of all, I wasn't lying, I was just pointing out how silly your argument was. I'm fine with cosmetic rewards for PvP, or funky mounts or a new wider array of titles, that's all good. I actually never said otherwise, I just couldn't believe to try and "prove" your point that you tried to argue that people play sports because there are millions of dollars in rewards on the table (again, your words). If you can't see how silly that statement is, then there's really nothing left to be said about the subject.
    Last edited by Siddown; 2013-05-18 at 02:12 PM.

  13. #133
    What else besides rating and fun do you need ? In MOBA games all you fight for is rating, you don't even get special skins or anything. It's fun, it's a challenge, there is a ladder ... that's all you need for PvP imho.

    What's the worst that can happen to you ...

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Lies and more lies. Look at sport irl. People don't play just for the fun, there are millions in rewards and pay on the table.
    Wrong. Professionals in sports don't just play for fun, but everyone else does. And when there are professional WoW arena teams (laughable as the concept is) they're competing for money and pride, and don't give a crap about gear. Ask any pro, and they'll tell you PvP would be better if everyone was equally geared from the go. The incentive for any true competitive player is the competition itself, and if good enough, possibly money. They don't want a gear advantage over others.

  15. #135
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    Fun? Look at Dota/HoN/LoL. Those are probably the most popular pvp games that exist and there is no goal or reward you play for fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Wrong. Professionals in sports don't just play for fun, but everyone else does. And when there are professional WoW arena teams (laughable as the concept is) they're competing for money and pride, and don't give a crap about gear. Ask any pro, and they'll tell you PvP would be better if everyone was equally geared from the go. The incentive for any true competitive player is the competition itself, and if good enough, possibly money. They don't want a gear advantage over others.
    Also why is being a professional sports player not laughable but vidya gamer is?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Also why is being a professional sports player not laughable but vidya gamer is?
    This might sound arbitrary, but when you strip down sports they are generally an athlete and some basic equipment. So it's the athlete (or team of athletes) that makes up the sport. For video games, it's a computer and a game that makes up the majority of it.

    While I understand that if the market exists, there deserves to be people making money to play, part of me does think the concept of a professional video game player is a bit odd. Like when there were professional Guitar Hero players a few years back, I just found that weird.

    I could take Messi and dump him on the street with no shoes and a patched up football, and he'd still be the best soccer player in the world. You can't do that with a WoW/LoL/Dota/HoN/Other Acronym player.

    See, arbitrary.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Fun? Look at Dota/HoN/LoL. Those are probably the most popular pvp games that exist and there is no goal or reward you play for fun.



    Also why is being a professional sports player not laughable but vidya gamer is?
    Actually the whole DOTA concept is that you gain resources while denying resources to outgear your opposition.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    First of all, I wasn't lying, I was just pointing out how silly your argument was. I'm fine with cosmetic rewards for PvP, or funky mounts or a new wider array of titles, that's all good. I actually never said otherwise, I just couldn't believe to try and "prove" your point that you tried to argue that people play sports because there are millions of dollars in rewards on the table (again, your words). If you can't see how silly that statement is, then there's really nothing left to be said about the subject.
    Fact is, even on a basic level people are being rewarded, there are medals, there are titles, there is prestige. In WoW PvP except for the one to two spots on most battlegrounds there is nothing like that and that is my main gripe. If they remove gear they have to introduce something to make up for it and they are not doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Wrong. Professionals in sports don't just play for fun, but everyone else does. And when there are professional WoW arena teams (laughable as the concept is) they're competing for money and pride, and don't give a crap about gear. Ask any pro, and they'll tell you PvP would be better if everyone was equally geared from the go. The incentive for any true competitive player is the competition itself, and if good enough, possibly money. They don't want a gear advantage over others.
    Stop talking about gear when that at no point was ever what I was on about. Instead of money in WoW you get stuff in form of mounts, titles and other fun things to show around. Currently in PvP you don't and that is my main gripe. If they remove gear as motivation they have to introduce other vanity rewards to make up for it and they're currently not doing that.

    Hell even games such as CoD, Halo and others are nowadays introducing these "carrots on a stick" to motivate and reward players but you guys claim it's not needed for WoW when it is for the most part what fuelled everything in WoW since day 1.

  19. #139
    The only people that are mad about this change are the basement dwelling neck beards.....because they might actually lose to a guy who is more skilled even though he can only play maybe a hour a day. I have always thought since day one it should be a even playing field, Of course i think they should add some form of reward for doing well in pvp.....just not better gear.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    I'm actually considering trying out PvP again for the first time since TBC.

    And when did "just to play" stop being an acceptable reason to participate in a competitive activity in a game?
    This guy get's it. Unfortunately, it stopped being a reason when botting became more viable, and got worse when they evolved to actually being able to kill enemies.
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