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  1. #141
    Fun. Prestige. Competition.
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  2. #142
    The Patient derp singed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryft View Post
    If you are more skilled than another person or team, you will win.
    This is not true anymore.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Fun? Look at Dota/HoN/LoL. Those are probably the most popular pvp games that exist and there is no goal or reward you play for fun.



    Also why is being a professional sports player not laughable but vidya gamer is?
    You misunderstood. I don't find pro gamers to be laughable. Just pro WoW players. I don't think an MMO is a justifiable tournament game.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Synthaxx View Post
    This guy get's it. Unfortunately, it stopped being a reason when botting became more viable, and got worse when they evolved to actually being able to kill enemies.
    Bots are taking over the world !!! of warcraft.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  5. #145
    Blademaster Xuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddown View Post
    ..when you strip down sports they are generally an athlete and some basic equipment. So it's the athlete (or team of athletes) that makes up the sport. For video games, it's a computer and a game that makes up the majority of it.
    Athlete = Gamer
    Basic Equipment = Gaming Rig + game

    Bad Comparison

    While I understand that if the market exists, there deserves to be people making money to play, part of me does think the concept of a professional video game player is a bit odd. Like when there were professional Guitar Hero players a few years back, I just found that weird.
    Professional gaming is no wierder than Professional anything else, if people will spectate then advertisers will advertise and money will get made.


    I could take Messi and dump him on the street with no shoes and a patched up football, and he'd still be the best soccer player in the world. You can't do that with a WoW/LoL/Dota/HoN/Other Acronym player.
    Another bad comparison. If your giving Messi the most basic equipment and a location to play he can still play...So you'd have to do the same with the Gamer, give him a comp with the min spec to run his game of choice.
    "You have six different smiles. One for when you're angry. One for when you tear flesh. One for when you chew flesh. One for when you loot bodies. One for when you skin game. And one for when you want to kill something."

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Fun? Look at Dota/HoN/LoL. Those are probably the most popular pvp games that exist and there is no goal or reward you play for fun.


    lol.

    League is all about the carrot on the stick.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    You misunderstood. I don't find pro gamers to be laughable. Just pro WoW players. I don't think an MMO is a justifiable tournament game.
    Have you watched a 3v3 tournament? I don't know how you could think otherwise unless you had no idea what's going on.

  7. #147
    Brewmaster Zaxio's Avatar
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    Its like in PvE you not going for gear you going for title and other prestige stuff who will stay with years

  8. #148
    I got through 5 pages of this thread before I felt to respond. Here's what I know so far.

    Up until this point in WoW's history, gear progression has been a huge part of PvP. Changing it now seems silly.

    The reason I find the new patch silly is because the game is inherently IMBALANCED. If you can pick from any class or spec for your RBG team are you going to take a Ret Paladin? Will the best Ret paladin in the world beat the best Warlock? Gear imbalance helps players that like playing specific classes succeed in an unfair world. End of story.

    I'm a casual hardcore player. Dabbled in heroic raiding but a long term player. I've never gotten to 2200 because I cap and GTFO. When they announced the *never implemented* rating scaling to help people push 2200 for elite gear I got excited. I got excited for the first time in regards to WoW and PvP in a long time.

    The problem is that when you PvP and cap out gear, as the seasons progresses everyone else gets stronger and you feel proportionally weaker. Which is no fun. On that same token don't you want to feel like you can kill people easier? That you are more effective at your job than others? I like owning noobs for sure. But I also love that feeling when I see a Tier 2 player and I say to myself "OH SHIT, put your game face on."

    I think Blizzard fucked this up hard. I think they should have made 476 gear craftable with material requirements that require you to, get to 1200, get to 1500. Keep it low tho, not too much more. Hell, craft a weapon for cheap if you get 1800.

    Right now, craftable 458 gear is a slap in the face - an insult to new PvPers.

    I've always been one of those players who always wanted to get 2200 and never had the time to dedicate to it. Come 5.3 I'm going to cap 2 more weeks and finish my Tyrannical set and never set foot in arena again.

    I've always thought that seeing better geared players was a motivational factor. This is an RPG and you have an avatar in game. You play the game to make your character better. When you play a billion hours a day and it's impossible for you to enhance the strength of your character....someone at Blizzard failed.

    I'll say it one more time, attempting to equalize an inherently imbalanced game is pointless.

  9. #149
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psilar View Post
    I got through 5 pages of this thread before I felt to respond. Here's what I know so far.

    Up until this point in WoW's history, gear progression has been a huge part of PvP. Changing it now seems silly.

    The reason I find the new patch silly is because the game is inherently IMBALANCED. If you can pick from any class or spec for your RBG team are you going to take a Ret Paladin? Will the best Ret paladin in the world beat the best Warlock? Gear imbalance helps players that like playing specific classes succeed in an unfair world. End of story.

    I'm a casual hardcore player. Dabbled in heroic raiding but a long term player. I've never gotten to 2200 because I cap and GTFO. When they announced the *never implemented* rating scaling to help people push 2200 for elite gear I got excited. I got excited for the first time in regards to WoW and PvP in a long time.

    The problem is that when you PvP and cap out gear, as the seasons progresses everyone else gets stronger and you feel proportionally weaker. Which is no fun. On that same token don't you want to feel like you can kill people easier? That you are more effective at your job than others? I like owning noobs for sure. But I also love that feeling when I see a Tier 2 player and I say to myself "OH SHIT, put your game face on."

    I think Blizzard fucked this up hard. I think they should have made 476 gear craftable with material requirements that require you to, get to 1200, get to 1500. Keep it low tho, not too much more. Hell, craft a weapon for cheap if you get 1800.

    Right now, craftable 458 gear is a slap in the face - an insult to new PvPers.
    Gear progressing is still a part of it, it's just going to be less retarded than last season. Gear should matter, partially, as in how you gem or which trinkets you use, but not to a point where someone can simply destroy his opponents without having to do his best because your weapon is 50% stronger than someone else his. Last season there was very little you could do if you say met a t2 warrior while sitting in honor gear yourself than dying quickly.

    Also, I think the 458 crafted gear is fine, considering how ridiculousy easy it is to get honor gear nowadays. You don't even have to set a foot in a battleground anymore, just doing dailies or random dungeons is more than enough.

    As for rating requirement on gear, I think it's a pretty bad idea if you want more players doing arena. If I recall correctly, 1.3k is where you are in the top 50% so you'll end up with the majority being unable to get geared. 1.8k for a honor weapon would be crazy, especially when you consider how much of a difference it makes between having a PvP weapon and not having one.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by derp singed View Post
    This is not true anymore.
    Its still is most of them time honestly. Their were some rank 1 rmp last season dude when rogues were the worst class ingame.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 10:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    Gear progressing is still a part of it, it's just going to be less retarded than last season. Gear should matter, partially, as in how you gem or which trinkets you use, but not to a point where someone can simply destroy his opponents without having to do his best because your weapon is 50% stronger than someone else his. Last season there was very little you could do if you say met a t2 warrior while sitting in honor gear yourself than dying quickly.

    Also, I think the 458 crafted gear is fine, considering how ridiculousy easy it is to get honor gear nowadays. You don't even have to set a foot in a battleground anymore, just doing dailies or random dungeons is more than enough.

    As for rating requirement on gear, I think it's a pretty bad idea if you want more players doing arena. If I recall correctly, 1.3k is where you are in the top 50% so you'll end up with the majority being unable to get geared. 1.8k for a honor weapon would be crazy, especially when you consider how much of a difference it makes between having a PvP weapon and not having one.
    You should just get the current season t1 for free the difference is huge as a dps honestly.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    Every single person who makes the argument, "It makes an even playing field" is a noob... they're just trying to justify why they keep dying in BG's... even when they have the best gear and still die, they make an excuse that PvP sucks and it's not worth the time. I walked into bg's with pve gear, I've walked in with blue pvp gear... and guess what, I wrecked a lot of people because I knew what I was doing. PvP is all about knowing what you're doing... if you walk into a BG and you're a clicker, keyboard turner, don't know anything about your class other than your 6 button rotation... you're doomed to fail. Bad players ruined PvP... rating requirement was awesome... I loved that drive and feeling of pushing for 2200 so that I could get my t2 wep. People fail to realize what even playing field even means... in a BG, I'm not stopping you from reaching 2k... yea I might have better gear, but you didn't have a chance regardless of what I was wearing... so let me ask a question: If your argument is about even playing field... why are you worried about my better gear when I'm at 2400 mmr and you're at 1300? We'll never player each other so you you still have just as easy/hard time as me to get what I have. During the climb to 1800, you don't face gladiators non stop... You might, but you won't lose much at all if any.

    Should rename this thread bad pvpers ruining the game for everyone else. If you thought PvP couldn't get worse... blizzard balanced PvP based on what people said in the forums... Noobs who don't even PvP, were giving advice on how classes should be... that's worst idea ever... would you ask a 6 year old about how to take out and clean your corroboratory?
    The strangest thing... if you went and had a look around PVP forums, most high level players would agree that it is a good thing to not have rating requirements. It's usually only the middling players that are the most vocal proponents for.... and there must be a bunch of those in this thread.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxio View Post
    Its like in PvE you not going for gear you going for title and other prestige stuff who will stay with years
    The problem with this is, there aren't any real title or prestige stuff for PvP. You're getting mounts, titles and pets thrown at you in PvE till you die, there is hardly anything like that in PvP. Between capping points each week and rank 1 there aren't any kind of real rewards that are going to stay with you, non.

    If they want to remove gear as rewards that's fine in to me, but then they need to introduce something else to make up for it and they are NOT DOING THAT.


    Quote Originally Posted by hitmannoob View Post
    Its still is most of them time honestly. Their were some rank 1 rmp last season dude when rogues were the worst class ingame.
    1. The were around 3 or 4 rogues above 2,2k from the statistics I remember.
    2. Who exactly? I'd like to know because most likely the other two carried him to be there.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    no pvp and pve are the same-blizz refuses to separate the two "half the problem".tell me why is it ok for pve to have gear progression but bad for pvp?
    Based on the premise that PVP is meant to be about competition, it's because having "progression" and the playing field tied together when a zero-sum ladder is involved is stupid. The very nature of such a thing creates inequalities which run counter to competition.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 05:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I stopped pvping when they started removing progression back in wotlk, well right as cata came out I guess - started with the honor weapons, and now it's gotten to the point of no return lol. PvP is fun when you are battling other people, but it's even more fun when something is on the line - they took out the rating requirements and in the process took out a major reason why people are competitive.... yeah, it's fun to go around and just kill people regularly, but for me at least, it was a lot more interesting when there's a purpose behind it.
    Didn't season 1 and 2 have the highest participation rates?

  14. #154
    As I said many times, halting progression in terms of gear in the name of equality, fairness and balance, will highlight the class imbalances. If there is an edge you can get, people WILL go for it. The only punishment to playing fotm (or reactivate your account with the fotm class) was the effort to level up a new character and catch up on gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  15. #155
    Warchief Velthy's Avatar
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    Isnt the whole point of playing pvp, just to have fun?

    Signature made by my best friend Aryiana.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    As I said many times, halting progression in terms of gear in the name of equality, fairness and balance, will highlight the class imbalances. If there is an edge you can get, people WILL go for it. The only punishment to playing fotm (or reactivate your account with the fotm class) was the effort to level up a new character and catch up on gear.
    So what. For ppl who want to be on top of ladders it changes nothing, they will farm it if they have to and for normal guys who play more for fun FOTM does not matter. Going back to MOBA games you can clearly see that ppl don't just pick tier 1 champs ... they pick what they like and/or are good at. As long as the balance is reasonable it does not matter one bit.

    And why should there be a punishment for playing other class ? We are talking about game you play for fun. Punishment is a silly word in this context. You have to grind to change class, it has to be long and painful experience ... funny

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    So what. For ppl who want to be on top of ladders it changes nothing, they will farm it if they have to and for normal guys who play more for fun FOTM does not matter. Going back to MOBA games you can clearly see that ppl don't just pick tier 1 champs ... they pick what they like and/or are good at. As long as the balance is reasonable it does not matter one bit.
    But it's not just the top of ladders. It's everywhere from 1500 to 3000. How many warriors did you encounter in your 5.0 arenas? Personally it felt like 7/10 games I played against had a warrior. How many rogues in cataclysmic season? How many shadow priests this season? Where are the warriors now? Where were the shadow priests in malevolant season? Where were the rogues, in arguably their worst season, malevolant season?

    And why should there be a punishment for playing other class ? We are talking about game you play for fun. Punishment is a silly word in this context. You have to grind to change class, it has to be long and painful experience ... funny
    How fun is it if you play against the same classes, over and over? More over how fun is it if you are losing against the same classes over and over and over? And how fair is it if skill isn't the deciding factor and a class carries/hinders you?
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    But it's not just the top of ladders. It's everywhere from 1500 to 3000. How many warriors did you encounter in your 5.0 arenas? Personally it felt like 7/10 games I played against had a warrior. How many rogues in cataclysmic season? How many shadow priests this season? Where are the warriors now? Where were the shadow priests in malevolant season? Where were the rogues, in arguably their worst season, malevolant season?

    How fun is it if you play against the same classes, over and over? More over how fun is it if you are losing against the same classes over and over and over? And how fair is it if skill isn't the deciding factor and a class carries/hinders you?
    Thing is with steep gear progression fotm classes get stronger faster and dominate even more than in case of mellow gear progression. Punishing players for switching is bad on its own, steep gear progression that makes the gap between top geared fotm and low geared average wider is bad as well. So what exactly are the positives. As it is gear progression does not stop ppl from fotm rerolling between seasons and what else is there.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  19. #159
    Thing is with steep gear progression fotm classes get stronger faster and dominate even more than in case of mellow gear progression.
    I can't argue with that. What you said is true.

    From my point of view (1700-2000 rating) it is ok to lose to a fotm regular, that just happened to play the right class at the right time. That his main class turned out to be fotm.

    However it is infuriating to lose (or struggle to win) a 1500 fotm reroller, that jumped the wagon of opportunity.

    If you play a lot you can distinguish who is who out of those above. Gear is a big clue.

    If your girlfriend is about to cheat on you, it better be someone important than a nobody mouth breather that is sweating.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  20. #160
    Bloodsail Admiral Luminoth4's Avatar
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    Agreeing pretty much with what Psilar said. Not much point removing the Carrot on the Stick for WoW PVP, it has always been about gearing up and the sense of progression, in both PVE and PVP. They finally got rid of PVPers requiring PVE Weapons to ultimately screw it up due to PVE. PVP Gear has a lower item level than PVE Gear because Blizzard did not want people to use it to get into LFR in 5.0. So ultimately it made the gaps between Dreadful (458) and Malevolent (483) much bigger. Most of those complaining about PVP expect to go into Arenas or BGs with less than 300k HP and eat everyone alive. Then when they get eaten by someone whose worked on their gear and put effort in, they come to the forums and complain. Not sure what people with 295k in questing greens expect to happen :S

    I agree the damage needs to be nerfed somewhat, but not at the expense of making PVP Gear less of a reward. Increasing the Base Resilience and a massive nerf to PVP Power pretty much invites PVEers to PVP, without any return for PVPers beyond 'more people'. Base Resilience should be be kept at 40%, and have the entry set (Crafted Dreadful now) give 55%, Malevolent give 60% and Tyrannical give around 65%. An increase of 5% per season isn't much, plus readily available Contenders and Crafted Dreadful should support people to make an entry.

    My concern more than the normalization of gear is Class balance. I have a Mage, Rogue, Paladin, Priest, Warlock and Warrior at 90 currently, and regularly cap most of them. I can easily say if I pitted my Rogue against my Warrior the Warrior would get so massacred in even gear I'd never wish to play it again, just because of balance issues. Trying to cap my Warrior this week was a nightmare due to Rogues, generally dying in openers despite starting in Defensive Stance with 1H/Shield and 426k HP. Nerf overall damage sure. But don't remove Gear Progression from PVP. My incentive is entirely gear based. Even playing something like CoD, the leveling up system of Black Ops 1 was so you could buy better gear. Cosmetics are nice, but I generally just play for the cap and never expect to see the tabard and cloak of 5.3. I am interested in getting that upgrade that means I have better damage/survivability.

    Anyways /rant over. Feel free to criticize my opinions. People play for goals, whether that be in Reputation, Skills, Fun or Gear. Making one of these a smaller incentive isn't in my opinion the way forward.
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