1. #1

    What is wrong with my Prot Warrior DMG in 25's

    So in the beginning of this expansion I started out in 10 mans. I held really good ranks in dmg, like top 5's in Hardmode content. I am a 6 year old prot warrior that has played in every patch. Last patch I had to stack str and I used dps trinkets. Since 5.3 I found my Str gear does nothing. I've herd of using crit instead of str but I'm not sure I can do that since my 25 man raid is now getting into Heroics. I've lost my spot in the progression 10 for many reasons, but one of the main problems is that I can not compete with other tanks.

    So what's the problem? is Prot warrior dmg broken? No one is hardly playing this game anymore and I can't find any information. Tankspot is dead, elitist jerks is dead.

    I started ignoring heroic strike to shield block more but it's not getting me anywhere.

    I get pulled off of by the other tanks when I taunt even.

    Yes there are prot warriors everywhere but no one knows how to play them. If you look at logs the end game guilds do not use prot warriors. The pally tank is so much better then the warrior tank. I would even say that the warrior tank is useless and the worst tank atm. Is it just me or am I rite?

  2. #2
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbert View Post
    I've lost my spot in the progression 10 for many reasons

    No one is hardly playing this game anymore and I can't find any information.

    I get pulled off of by the other tanks when I taunt even.

    Yes there are prot warriors everywhere but no one knows how to play them.

    The pally tank is so much better then the warrior tank.

    warrior tank is useless and the worst tank atm.

    Is it just me or am I rite?

    I helped you pointing out the core statements.

    Also, I assume it´s only you.

  3. #3
    O ty tyvm. I didn't know I could answer my own question. Sit down troll. I held 15 ranks going into this patch. I've held #1 in the world. Our 10 was top 90th US with me in there. I am legit one of the top 100 US Prot Warriors easily. I'm not in the 10 cause they xfer off to get more recruitment and push higher progression then what my server was capable of. They came back, but I don't raid full time anymore, and I'm a bit of an a-hole when people die to dumb stuff. My skill isn't in question. I need to know if the class is all around screwed. I need to verify it. If there's something I can do I'm going to try it I just don't know what else to do from here. Looking on the internet didn't help much since I can't find much information.

    I don't even play much anymore but my guilds 25 needs me this week for 25 Heroic Horridon. I'm surviving pretty easy on boss, but I'm on the bottom of the charts. I can't do adds cause I have to physically hit everything to pick up everything. It's too much movement and not enough dmg to the adds. I put myself on boss and I'm using HoPs, that will work. I know if a pally was tanking the boss, it could be a few % lower. Once we move onto other bosses that becomes a bigger issue. What I been doing is stacking another tanks vengeance and using intervene and taunting to take debuffs. Those kind of fights I wont be tanking a lot but I'd like to do more dmg. I don't get much vengeance that way, If we did normal switch offs I would have to have more output.

    I don't need trolls, I need people with information.

  4. #4
    Sorry about wall of text:

    I'm running 10 man normals with a soft-core raiding guild, can get away with tanking in full dps gear as damage is fairly trivial. Been focusing on maximizing my dps as a result to speed things up, and also because I enjoy to maximize my tanking dps. However I quickly ran into a few problems in the progress, which might also apply to prot warriors in heroic content:

    1. Haste scaling for prot warriors is all but inexistant, this renders Heroism/Bloodlust and any haste on gear nearly useless. While haste is a fantastic dps AND mitigation boost for prot paladins, monks and to a lesser extend DKs. This seems to be close to the core of the problem.

    2. To maximize our prot dps we need to greatly jeopardize our active mitigation whereas paladins, monks and DKs don't have to. We can't use Heroic Strike at all outside of free procs (if we'd still receive rage from auto-attacks or damage taken, things might be different). We can't use Shield Barrier without loosing out on significant ammounts of Shield Slam damage through Heavy Repercussion Glyph. Same goes for execute, we have to drain all our active Mitigation to fuel Execute spam, a Blood DK alway has a spare blood rune for Soul Reaper.

    3. Vengeance scaling. Warriors seem to take by default less damage than most tanks on a hit-by-hit basis (high armor, 25% passive reduction, and high block uptime), which might lead to much lower Vengeance for Prot warriors as a result. I could be totally wrong here but I believe this leads to Blood DKs and Monks having much higher vengeance and dps by default when tanking, as they are designed to take most of a bosses melee damage, then counter it through self-healing and in Monk's case staggering, but also geting a large ammount of extra vengeance as a result.

    Since I'm propably missing something from the big picture, I guess a fairly reliable way to compare the dps performance among tank specs is looking at Raidbot, which reveals prot warriors as the bottom dps tank spec by a huge margin in both 10 man normal modes and 10 man heroics (10 man for purpose of bigger sample size, however the picture is not much different in the 25 man samples):

    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...11111111000000

    On world of logs there are also plenty of top prot warrior parses who went all out dps-whoring on patchwerkish fights like Jinrokh, using dps gear with the dps legendary meta gem and spamming Execute, but they still cannot come even close to the output of other tanks.

    For comparison,
    top prot warrior dps rankings for Jin'Rokh 10 man heroic:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ction_Warrior/

    top Blood DK rankings:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/

    The second lowest tank ranking for this single target fight comes from Brewmasters, the top Brewmaster being about 25% higher than the top ranking prot warrior, and the top ranking blood DK being 50% higher in dps than the top ranking prot warrior.

    Prot warriors need a significant single target dps boost (not that our AoE dps is great either), allowing auto-attacks to generate rage again would at least a step towards a solution, if only to make haste at least borderline useful.
    Last edited by Calamari; 2013-05-15 at 11:31 PM.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

  5. #5
    well, when i tank i use dancing steel on the weapon and if your surviving well the strength expertise trinket from SPA is more than viable, bloodbath should be your teir 6 talent, and dragons roar unless your on an aoe fight (though you did say your on hc horridon so im sure thats fine), cant see logs so that all i can say really.
    low weapon speed might also have something to do with it, dps weapons are 2.6 but the tank one is 2.4 that logically should make it worse as otherwise dps would take it.
    Damosapien - DPS(whatever spec is better in that teir)/prot Warrior http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...apien/advanced
    Damodrood - Resto/feral(hybrid) Druid http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...drood/advanced
    Damoo - Blood/frost Death knight http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Damoo/simple

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by blackbert View Post
    I held 15 ranks going into this patch. I've held #1 in the world. Our 10 was top 90th US with me in there. I am legit one of the top 100 US Prot Warriors easily.
    If you're as good as you "think" you are. Then you shouldn't be having any problems with anything, and should be able to solo tank all instances. Your raid history, and wow-heroes pages both say otherwise I'm afraid.

    PS:
    Don't get cocky on the forums, demand answers, and then bash at anyone pointing simple things out.[COLOR="red"]

  7. #7
    High Overlord Hatebox's Avatar
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    I'm nowhere near all your Top 100 US progress as a Prot Warrior but:

    1) Dragon's Roar + Bloodbath will be nice for you. You can always pop it right after a taunt. Remember to cast Intervene/Safeguard some secs before, so you can get some free Vengeance.
    2) As lots of better warriors than me say, drop HS. Just use it when button glows. Rest of the time, pop Sblock+Shield Slam. Make sure you'll have Shield block out of CD after taunting back.
    3) On Horridon, pop Sbars for Triple Puncture, Shield Blocks for the rest. Shield Slam will hit like a truck. Could pull like 187k+ as a Tank (10m Normal), solo+bop duty like you.
    4) Fix some minor stuff at your Armory: Blacksmithing: 1 missing socket and Jewelcrafting: 1 unused Serpent's Eye.
    5) Grab Dancing Steel is a nice enchant. Will give you moar deeps/threat and some free parry.

    Hope this little one helped, at least a bit, sir.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  8. #8
    Calamari, have you tried hit > Exp > Crit ? Vengeance scaling does bring more light to what's going on. It explains why I can burst on a group off adds then lose them to the other tank when the burst wears out. It's not just that we are the lowest but that pally's are so much higher. If dmg was even then there's still the issue of survival. I think using crit gems might help but it means that I have work harder to do it. Taking more dmg means I have to use all my cds and it might leave me with none some times. It's 25 so there are a few externals. A pally surv better taking more dmg. What happen to Blizz saying bring the player not the class.

    Damosapien I was thinking about bloodbath, I'm going to try it later. I use dragons roar a lot but not lately, I would use that tonight but it's herroic Horridon and I like running over and stunning the adds while he charges the door. That trinket is awesome, I want that trinket lol. I think the tanking enchant sux, my sha weapon has dancing steel.

    CamelLogic, I'm a legend brah.

    Drugshock, Either doing that or changing to that. see above . Intervene/Safeguard some secs before, so you can get some free Vengeance is one the best things about a warrior. When I'm stacking the other tanks veng, it keeps me from losing dmg. I like to enrage SS after using it on cd. 2) As lots of better warriors than me say, drop HS. Just use it when button glows. Rest of the time, pop Sblock+Shield Slam. Make sure you'll have Shield block out of CD after taunting back. Yea I find that I'm not getting better dmg by much but I'm maintaining as if I was striking but with greater surv. Yeah horridon is easy. 4) Fix some minor stuff at your Armory: Blacksmithing: 1 missing socket and Jewelcrafting: 1 unused Serpent's Eye. Yea those go in my new gloves, I forgot them and took a week off.

    I'm not trying to be smug I'm stating that there's an Issue. I'm not some scrub there is something wrong with balance here. I'm saying that I got the experience to know that warriors are a little broken atm. It wouldn't be the 1st time, remember TotC. I'm trying to confirm it.
    Last edited by blackbert; 2013-05-15 at 11:58 PM.

  9. #9
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    I did some detective work and found your logs.
    You dont play nearly as good as you claim... :P

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1633&e=1978

    Fight lasted ~344 seconds.
    You hit shieldblock 8 times lol.
    You hit shieldslam 39 times (Without snb procs, you should have atleast 57...)
    You hit heroic strike to much without ultimatium procs.
    Low revenge use.
    Your using avatar instead of bb.

    This was just an overview, didnt even dig into the logs.

    I rank top 10-50 on any given fight this tier, the problem is you, not the class. (Tho prot could use some buffs, cant argue that...)
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-05-16 at 09:25 AM.

  10. #10
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Was just about to ask for logs then scrolled to the bottom of the page and saw santa666's response :P
    Basically yeah, no offence but if you got any ranks it was due to you gimping your survivability so hard that vengeance just took over and carried you

    The DPS prot warrior can pull is pretty high if played correctly and can be even higher if you gear correctly

    The more vengeance you have the less potent STR becomes relative to crit, to the point of that if you are going for any Heroic mode ranks with 'smash' gear it should be crit based and not STR based

    Your haste trinket also will net you about as much DPS as chucking a landshark on the pull as well btw, if you don't have any others go get the carbonic carbuncle from brewery Heroic, that thing is AMAZING... pretty much BiS for prot DPS from the last tier and only ToT trinkets seem to outperform it
    Or go buy the VP Expertise, str proc one

    Warriors played well won't pull the same numbers as paladins, but they are pretty damn close if you do it right... there really is nothing wrong with the class atm

  11. #11

  12. #12
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gromnak View Post
    This is a very entertaining thread.

    /popcorn
    It is... ?;s

  13. #13
    Warchief
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    carbonic carbuncle from brewery Heroic, that thing is AMAZING... pretty much BiS for prot DPS from the last tier and only ToT trinkets seem to outperform it
    Since you in here might aswell ask :P
    What trinkets is the best for prot whoring ?

    I have feathers, gaze, 5.2 vp trinket and the skull onuse trinket.
    Not that my healers will even let me use on lol, but might be able to sneak it in somewhere
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-05-16 at 10:13 AM.

  14. #14
    Dreadlord
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    At first I felt bad for giving him the answer I gave. Then I read the rest of the thread.

  15. #15
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Since you in here might aswell ask :P
    What trinkets is the best for prot whoring ?

    I have feathers, gaze, 5.2 vp trinket and the skull onuse trinket.
    Not that my healers will even let me use on lol, but might be able to sneak it in somewhere
    I would have to say Gaze / Primordius Talisman is a really sick combo although feathers are pretty decent as well ^^

  16. #16
    you hit cleave twice on Jin'Rokh

    you have only done 1/13 hc, and probably have not been exposed to that high vengeance

    Warrior has the lowest dps of the tanks

    If you add these things = yeah sure you won't be top on the damage

  17. #17
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfmagesffs View Post
    Warrior has the lowest dps of the tanks
    A rather broad statement I wouldn't tend to agree on :P

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    3. Vengeance scaling. Warriors seem to take by default less damage than most tanks on a hit-by-hit basis (high armor, 25% passive reduction, and high block uptime), which might lead to much lower Vengeance for Prot warriors as a result. I could be totally wrong here but I believe this leads to Blood DKs and Monks having much higher vengeance and dps by default when tanking, as they are designed to take most of a bosses melee damage, then counter it through self-healing and in Monk's case staggering, but also geting a large ammount of extra vengeance as a result.
    I don't think this is the case. Even the tooltip is pretty explicit in saying it's based off of unmitigated damage, where mitigation includes armor, block, and passive reduction. (As well as the AP debuff, thanks to some astute beta testers.)

    I haven't read anything else that points to otherwise, but if someone more knowledgeable than myself can shed light here, I'd appreciate it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eddytheone View Post
    A rather broad statement I wouldn't tend to agree on :P
    Well, if you go boss by boss on raidbots, warrs are in most of them the lowest one. Sometimes DKs, rarely druids. Specially on pretty straight forward fights, where tank role doesn't change too much (jin'rok, iron qon, lei shen, ra'den).

    Don't know why would we throw stones in our own roof. Warrior tank dps is low, no reason to say otherwise. Can you surpass other tanks? Sure. Given the same experience, knowledge and gear would they surpass us? Oh yep.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-05-16 at 05:21 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Well, if you go boss by boss on raidbots, warrs are in most of them the lowest one. Sometimes DKs, rarely druids. Specially on pretty straight forward fights, where tank role doesn't change too much (jin'rok, iron qon, lei shen, ra'den).

    Don't know why would we throw stones in our own roof. Warrior tank dps is low, no reason to say otherwise. Can you surpass other tanks? Sure. Given the same experience, knowledge and gear would they surpass us? Oh yep.
    Agreed, it's respectable that you've raked up ranks and pushed the prot warrior dps potential near to it's limit on many fights Eddy, but the harsh reality is that other tanks easily match your dps and then add some ontop, without even having to resort to mitigation-crippling mechanics like Execute.
    Ikelos@Argent Dawn EU

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