pvp changes in 5.3 will ruin the pvp fun (my opinion)

[Shahad]

Says the guy who doesn't even PvP.

First of all, you have no grounds to say I don't partake in PvP.
Second of all, even if I DIDN'T PvP, it's no reason to assume I can't have an educated opinion backed by math on the subject.
Third, having the knowledge of the game that I and many others have, I am fully in position to call out the OP on his lack of sense.

So, in essence, your opinion is also bad and irrelevant.

[Chestbrah]

First of all, you have no grounds to say I don't partake in PvP.
Second of all, even if I DIDN'T PvP, it's no reason to assume I can't have an educated opinion backed by math on the subject.
Third, having the knowledge of the game that I and many others have, I am fully in position to call out the OP on his lack of sense.

So, in essence, your opinion is also bad and irrelevant.

Except you have played 3 rbg's total and have no arena teams. That would indicate you don't pvp this season. Unless you pvp on a different toon while you aren't raiding or doing regular bg's?

[Osmeric]

Except you have played 3 rbg's total and have no arena teams. That would indicate you don't pvp this season. Unless you're talking about a different toon or regular bg's.

Arena and rated BGs are the only form of PvP? Who knew!

I think it's this notion that Blizzard is fighting in 5.3, trying to get casual PvPers back into the unrated BGs.

[Shahad]

Except you have played 3 rbg's total and have no arena teams. That would indicate you don't pvp this season. Unless you pvp on a different toon while you aren't raiding or doing regular bg's?

I never PvPed on my priest except that one time I went in as Holy in raiding gear because a group lacked a healer. The strategy involved me dying next to the FC and using glyphed Spirit of Redemption to keep him up. By the time SoR ran out another healer would have gotten there. Worked kinda well.

Also, on my actual PvP character, my arena partner quit the game so I've been out of arenas this season. But it STILL doesn't mean I can't know what I'm talking about when it comes to balance.

[Stevegasm]

If anything, this change will improve the overall PvP experience. More people will actually PvP, because they know they can go in there as a fresh 90s and at least feel they have a chance. Hopefully this will dilute the amount of bots you see in there. Speaking of which, do you even know why a fair number of people bot in BGs? Because grinding out gear to have a fighting chance really really sucks.

It's not like the PvE gear grind, which is actually fun. The initial PvP grind is getting your face smashed in over and over again while hoping the rest of the team can carry you to victory for some extra points. It's basically the equivalent of wiping on the same boss over and over and over again. If there is one part of the game that I never blamed botters for botting, it's those who do it to get PvP gear. Honestly, I used to wish I had the balls to risk an account ban to do such a thing.

[Chestbrah]

I never PvPed on my priest except that one time I went in as Holy in raiding gear because a group lacked a healer. The strategy involved me dying next to the FC and using glyphed Spirit of Redemption to keep him up. By the time SoR ran out another healer would have gotten there. Worked kinda well.

Also, on my actual PvP character, my arena partner quit the game so I've been out of arenas this season. But it STILL doesn't mean I can't know what I'm talking about when it comes to balance.

Ok, you redeemed yourself cuz I lol'ed at the first part

[Kreeshak]

What removal of progression? They will raise the iLVL cap each Season to match the iLVL of the new Conquest gear.
Please explain what this progression is? Progression in PvP is rating and gaining 496 Tyranical gear. Nothing has changed.

Patch 5.1 with the ugprade system meant you would be BIS in 20 weeks.
Patch 5.2 intented to have elite gear with not rating requirements that meant you would be BIS in (say) 18-20 weeks
Patch 5.3 (and every season after that) means that unless they change the amount of conquest points you can cap per week you will be BIS in considerably less time than 5.1 or 5.2

Therefore, for players who are motivated by the carrot on a stick (gear) there is nothing (or not much) to do after they get BIS gear.

Yes, there are always new players joining the game. People who were born 14 years ago are starting to play. People who can only now afford to buy a decent computer, gained broadband in their place of living, introduced by a friend, etc. We do not screw over "veteran players" (Hi, by the way).

There is no source for that. I dont have a source that there is no new players either. However WOW losing subscribers in the last 2 quarters, suggest that that it isn't growing. If it was growing it would grow with new players - but it's not. That doesn't eliminate that new players are subscribing. My perception however is that their number is such a minority to screw veterans over them.

To be fair, it probably is fun playing FotM class.

There are 11 classes. I am not sure i do the math right but there should be 165 different combinations of class representation in 3s. Playing in and against 5-10 popular combinations (out of 165) is definately not fun for anyone. It's not fun playing against the same comp OVER and OVER and OVER again. And its definately not fun if you are in the not desired category. There exist people who might turn down a very experienced player in favor of a less experienced player just because of blass balance.

How does the gear gap helps with class imbalance?

The new flavor will typically be far less geared, than the old flavor who is likely to be geared. What class balance fails to deliver gear does. A lesser geared OP class will probably lose to a better gearer UP class.

Finally the so called "skill" losers are referring to when they lose to a better geared player is generally a dillusion humans create to blame someone else for their own mistakes. Everyone has equal opportunities to gear up. It really is that simple.

[Deleted]

Sorry but I can't really see how making fresh level 90's being able to do more in bgs makes PvP less fun.

[Baracuda]

There is no source for that. I dont have a source that there is no new players either. However WOW losing subscribers in the last 2 quarters, suggest that that it isn't growing. If it was growing it would grow with new players - but it's not. That doesn't eliminate that new players are subscribing. My perception however is that their number is such a minority to screw veterans over them.

So WoW has been losing subscribers during this period of time you enjoy, when the "veterans" have the biggest advantage. Since Blizzard is a business they will want to fix that by giving them a smaller advantange vs new players. I've played since TBC and I have many fond PvP memories of that expansion, none of those memories include enjoying gear progression, the PvP was a reward in itself. The closest thing to enjoy the gear progression for me was liking the look of the new gear and we still have that.

Finally the so called "skill" losers are referring to when they lose to a better geared player is generally a dillusion humans create to blame someone else for their own mistakes. Everyone has equal opportunities to gear up. It really is that simple.

So equal opportunities means that a fresh dinged 90 is on equal ground with a full tyrannical? Just listen to yourself...

[Flaks]

I really don't understand this sentiment. There's a couple classes that feel similar, and there's some homogenization, but Cycloning and Shifting are still "Druid things", stealth, control, and burst are still "Rogue things", charging around and dishing a lot of uptime and damage are still "Warrior things" and so on. Those classes don't feel the same at all.

There isn't "some" homogenization. Right now, if you're not one of the classes that brings EVERYTHING, you're at the bottom of the barrel. Because every class was given a ton of burst cds, a bunch of anti-cc, a bunch of cc, a bunch of defensives and self-healing. But some were given more than others and so we have things like dks, rogues, mages, hunters, spriests dominating everyone else.

[xixixviixiiii]

PvP should reward players with relative quality for effort items that are essentially the same as you'd find in raids. Remove PvP Power and Resilience from items. Give everyone a baseline level of resilience.

Re-balance all of the classes out of this homogenized mess Blizzard has created and make people actually rely on each other again for setups, healing, et cetera. There, problem solved. Equal playing field for both sides.

[Shahad]

Bleh, the OP made three responses in this thread and then never came back to it. Screw that, let's let it die.

[Kreeshak]

So WoW has been losing subscribers during this period of time you enjoy, when the "veterans" have the biggest advantage. Since Blizzard is a business they will want to fix that by giving them a smaller advantange vs new players. I've played since TBC and I have many fond PvP memories of that expansion, none of those memories include enjoying gear progression, the PvP was a reward in itself. The closest thing to enjoy the gear progression for me was liking the look of the new gear and we still have that.

Are you implying that the subscriber loss is because of the gear gap? I could easily claim the subscriber loss is because the game has become so casual friendly (lfr, constant content nerfs etc). We both don't know the reasoning behind the loss.

As for the second part, in vanilla it was ALL about progression. There wasn't a single time you could claim you were BIS. Content was hard and evolving. I didn't play in wrath but I've heard stories about the Shadowmourne warriors and death knights.

So equal opportunities means that a fresh dinged 90 is on equal ground with a full tyrannical? Just listen to yourself...

At the start of a season, absolutely. Don't argue about farming honor gear is that much of a hinderance.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 09:08 PM ----------

Imagine an inevitable class balance, where X is countered by Y which is countered by Z.
Now remove gear out of the equation.

Player X is playing for 8 years and has actually built a name around himself.
Player Y is playing for a few weeks. He encounters player X and demolishes him, spits on him and mocks him.

Is that fair for player X?

Then player X logs in his Z character.
He encounters player Y and demolishes him, spits on him and mocks him.

Is that the kind of PVP you are after?

[Baracuda]

Is that the kind of PVP you are after?

Isn't that how wow PvP is now/has always been?

Try beat a Blood DK of equal gear with a warrior.

[Kreeshak]

Isn't that how wow PvP is now/has always been?

YES!!!!! But if there was a gear gap in my previous example Player Y would have to work to beat player X. And work puts a lot of players off (who are demanding self entitled gear communism). So player X has a chance against design blunders.

[Crawford]

As long as PvP gear is best for RBGs, everyone will wear PvP gear in RBGs. You earn a full set of conquest in about ten weeks if you are playing at 1700-ish.

The problem is that, outside of RBGs, PvP gear no longer feels like good World of Warcraft equipment. Outside of RBGs, wearing PvP gear no longer makes you feel like a powerful world of warcraft character. Against a character in normal-mode raid gear, a PvP geared player is now a free gank when encountered in the world.

What they should do is make the honor gear craftable, and eliminate honor as a currency, to reduce the gap between baseline gear and conquest gear.

[Osmeric]

What they should do is make the honor gear craftable, and eliminate honor as a currency, to reduce the gap between baseline gear and conquest gear.

So, the casual PvPer who doesn't do arena or rated BGs... what exactly is his reward? Just the dribble of CP from CtA/random BGs?

[Crawford]

So, the casual PvPer who doesn't do arena or rated BGs... what exactly is his reward? Just the dribble of CP from CtA/random BGs?

The casual PvPer is dicked in 5.3, because ilvl 476 gear will be worse for PvP in all contexts than LFR gear from TOT. That gear will get down-leveled from 502 to 496, and will still wreck your 476 gear.

[Korgoth]

If a player does not understand that he needs to equip for pvp to play pvp, then he is not a player psychologically ready to play pvp.

WTF, its a game! Psychologically ready to play a game. GTFO. Thats just retarded.

If a player feels "scared" to fight against other players because his armor is weaker he is not a pvp player.

No he is a pvp player, he is just smart enough to know that when his enemy takes 40% less damage and does 40% more damage he doesnt have a chance in hell.

If a player doesn't understand that pvp is for those who enjoy pvp and he needs to work a bit to get his goals, then he shouldn't start playing pvp.

How is a player to know if they enjoy pvp without pvping? That is even dumber then the last two.

Pvp is similar entering the military with a lower rank and go climbing until you reach the top. Nobody joins the army as colonel or general, the guy has to deserve the promotion.

Lol no its not. PvP is nothing like the military. PvP at the high end does not require time and effort, if you are good, and you make that known and find good players you will quickly rise up the ranks. Or you can just pay someone.

What Blizzard is trying to implement (equating pvp and pve gear) can ruin the fun and the feel of promotion that exists in pvp.

What feeling of promotion? They havent had that in many years now. T2 sets went out after Wrath, and T2 weapon just got removed. Its 1 gear level. Which isnt changing in 5.3.

In vanilla the pvp was always full of players ... changes were happening, always "to improve gameplay", but what we see is a steady decline. Because of all these changes, today the pvp is boring ... everyone can heal, everyone has similar CCs, classes have lost their identity, which made them unique. Blizzard should do serious research with the existing players to find out what the players want to do ... and not change things based on the egocentric delusions of some developers who probably do not play WOW and do not listen the community.

In Vanilla PVP gear and PVE gear were equal, which you seem to hate in your other point.


---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 11:47 PM ----------

The casual PvPer is dicked in 5.3, because ilvl 476 gear will be worse for PvP in all contexts than LFR gear from TOT. That gear will get down-leveled from 502 to 496, and will still wreck your 476 gear.

The casual player can also get that easily obtained gear. The casual player can also now buy gear off the AH to get an improvement. The casual player was also just given a new conquest catch up system that will allow him to get half of his 496 gear in 1 week of arena. The casual player still has the PVP power advantage over the LFR pve player to help even that out.

The casual player is much better off in this system. In the week the patch hits you could take a character with 0 conquest gear, get him half his set, buy502 ilvl BoEs to fill in other slots; and be much better off against the already full conquest pvp players then before.

[Dabrix32]

How is getting more people into PvP bad? You will still own n00bs. Its not like people magically get skill when they have full pvP gear. Its not like all they key board turning mouth breathers are suddenly going to become 2500+ players. Bads are still bads even if they have full PvP gear. If you can only kill bads if they are wearing bad gear then maybe its you who is bad.