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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    There remains no slippery slope argument. I never suggested we were completely turning into the USSR. Since when is juxtaposing similarities between a defunct nation and a current nation a logical fallacy?
    Ok, so we are going to pretend that wasn't the point of your post?

    There are similarities between the US and every single country in existence. That doesn't really mean squat at the end of the day.

    This whole argument is an excellent example of observations based on a very poor lack of control over your variables.

    Also, correlation vs causation.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kame Guru View Post
    Define detain, define surveil.

    Any true breaking point would probably result from mass segregation of any group really, and pardon the Godwin, but shit like a "Final Solution" would probably cause a mass shitstorm. Also guns.
    As in, the United States government retains the right to indefinitely detain US citizens without trial as per the NDAA of 2011.

  3. #43
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Pro-motherfucking-tip: They've been doing it for over 100 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Ok, so we are going to pretend that wasn't the point of your post?

    There are similarities between the US and every single country in existence. That doesn't really mean squat at the end of the day.

    This whole argument is an excellent example of observations based on a very poor lack of control over your variables.

    Also, correlation vs causation.
    Excuse me, but I think when the similarities between 2 juxtaposed nations include things like "habeas corpus is discretionary" and "warrants are unnecessary to violate private property" and YOU are the one attempting to decry what I say as a logical fallacy, you should take a step back and think about what it is you're trying to do. Because it seems an awful lot like you're defending such suspensions of liberties.

  5. #45
    You're right. All we need now is to lose a world war and in the peace negotiations have our most rich and profitable land taken away from us thus resulting in our countries economy tanking to one of the lowest in the world (in terms of GDP). A few years will go by and the 90% of the country will be extremely poor farmers with civil wars breaking out all over the country. Next a leader will emerge and band everyone together (I.E. a constitution like we used to have!) long enough for him to get a small army to crush anyone who opposes him and use his newly found power to force everyone else to make weapons and gas to kill everyone else with!

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Because it seems an awful lot like you're defending such suspensions of liberties.
    Right. Because you lay out an argument based on word of mouth from 2 people and have poor control over other variables suddenly I am defending suspensions of liberties when I haven't even touched on that as a topic.

    Pity, normally you are more reasonable than this in your discussions.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Pro-motherfucking-tip: They've been doing it for over 100 years.
    Are you referring to the Civil War suspension or the Japanese internment camps? Because the Lincoln suspension provided a set limit on its duration and the Japanese internment was only upheld because no one saw fit to contest the fact that the only ones targeted by the law were Japanese.

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Are you referring to the Civil War suspension or the Japanese internment camps? Because the Lincoln suspension provided a set limit on its duration and the Japanese internment was only upheld because no one saw fit to contest the fact that the only ones targeted by the law were Japanese.
    Why are you defending such suspensions of liberties?

    (See how ridiculous it is when I do it?)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Right. Because you lay out an argument based on word of mouth from 2 people and have poor control over other variables suddenly I am defending suspensions of liberties when I haven't even touched on that as a topic.

    Pity, normally you are more reasonable than this in your discussions.
    This isn't based on word of mouth. It's based on the fact that the Soviet Constitution laid out rights which were trampled into the ground... and the US Constitution lays out rights... which are trampled into the ground.

  10. #50
    Russians did not follow the constitution in the way US follows it. It was just for show. It´s a literal case of writing pretty words and locking them up somewhere. The somewhat similar authoritative elements just happend to coincide with each other since they make it easier to control a population. You would not make a thread based on the constitution if you were to visit Russia and see for yourself the cultural difference.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Why are you defending such suspensions of liberties?

    (See how ridiculous it is when I do it?)
    I'm not defending them. I'm pointing out that there were defined limits placed on the former and the latter was rescinded before anyone could bring a case against it that would have seen it stricken.

    The current suspension has been codified into law, has no expiration and has been affirmed by the SCOTUS so long as the government decides that the people it's detaining are "enemy combatants".

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm not defending them. I'm pointing out that there were defined limits placed on the former and the latter was rescinded before anyone could bring a case against it that would have seen it stricken.

    The current suspension has been codified into law, has no expiration and has been affirmed by the SCOTUS so long as the government decides that the people it's detaining are "enemy combatants".
    *WHOOSH*

    You seem pretty set on defending your argument against any observation made to the fallacies of taking specific similarities and trying to draw conclusions while ignoring all the other variables that are significantly different.

    This is not an interesting debate to me. So I wish you the best of luck with trying to lay out whatever conclusions you are trying to draw.

    Until the next time we get to butt heads! Toodles.

  13. #53
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    This isn't based on word of mouth. It's based on the fact that the Soviet Constitution laid out rights which were trampled into the ground... and the US Constitution lays out rights... which are trampled into the ground.
    This is a false equivalency. One of the more horrendous that I've seen in my rather long time in general off-topic. Know who else suspended the laws of the country? Caesar. Everyone grab your tunic and wineskin, and be sure to watch out for barbarian hordes.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    This is a false equivalency. One of the more horrendous that I've seen in my rather long time in general off-topic. Know who else suspended the laws of the country? Caesar. Everyone grab your tunic and wineskin, and be sure to watch out for barbarian hordes.
    In what way is this a false equivalency?

    Is it different just because there's been no evidence of innocent people disappearing to Guantanamo?

  15. #55
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    In what way is this a false equivalency?

    Is it different just because there's been no evidence of innocent people disappearing to Guantanamo?
    Because they're different countries, different legal systems, different people enforcing them, different citizens, different periods of time, different histories, different places in the world, different constitutions, different infractions/supposed infractions against the constitution, different civilizations; if the sole basis for your comparison is that they both had a script that is supposed to be a contract between the government and the people, and nothing else, your point is about as solid as a mountain of chocolate pudding.

  16. #56
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Is it different just because there's been no evidence of innocent people disappearing to Guantanamo?
    I'd wager those "innocent" people probably fall under the "clear and present danger" clause adopted after Schenck v. U.S. If so, it's unlikely the general population would ever hear about it. That's hardly our rights being trampled upon and is nowhere comparable to what happened in the USSR.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Because they're different countries, different legal systems, different people enforcing them, different citizens, different periods of time, different histories, different places in the world, different constitutions, different infractions/supposed infractions against the constitution, different civilizations; if the sole basis for your comparison is that they both had a script that is supposed to be a contract between the government and the people, and nothing else, your point is about as solid as a mountain of chocolate pudding.
    Oh I get it. You're simply objecting to my use of the USSR as my comparison... not the fact that I'm likening the increasingly authoritarian American government's actions directly to the behavior of the Soviet Government in terms of respect for its citizens.

  18. #58
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    The difference is intent. If you can't understand that, well, go get an education in political science like I did and maybe you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  19. #59
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Oh I get it. You're simply objecting to my use of the USSR as my comparison... not the fact that I'm likening the increasingly authoritarian American government's actions directly to the behavior of the Soviet Government in terms of respect for its citizens.
    No, she says you're comparing apples and oranges; so confirmation bias and slippery slope aside...you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    No, she says you're comparing apples and oranges; so confirmation bias and slippery slope aside...you are.
    No, they both belong in the same range of classification. This level of comparison is more like a Potato to a Dolphin.

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