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  1. #241
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konker View Post
    Nevermind that article is flagged for bias and opinion... it's based completely on a false premise.

    Obviously, slippery slopes are not logical reasonings to find absolutes but rather theoretical posibility based upon tolerance of many small changes vs resistances to large changes to arrive at the same conclusion. I've always found it well established that it is easier to progressively lead people from A to B, B to C, etc.. than it is to lead someone from A to Z. Slippery slope is just a metaphor to illustrate the vulnerability and exploitability of that human trait.

    For example, if someone wants your help to move furniture (C) but you would normally not go over do it (A), they are far more likely to have success if they find a way to get you there first (B) and then ask you to do it. It does not guarantee a result, but each step incrementally removes obstacles (namely from relative reasoning) from the desired result. Moral of the story - don't take steps in the direction to a destination you do not want to tread unless very clearly defined lines are drawn.

    "Slippery Slope" is recognition of a tendency, not a reasoning to determine destination as the article suggests. As to wether or not the USA is incementally becoming more like the USSR, that's debatable. My concern is more along the lines of our migration to positive liberties, in contrast to our constitution of negative liberties, as one issue with the USSR is that their constitution promised more from the government than was practical. The point - pay attention to where you are going and not just to where you are.
    No. Slippery slope arguments are fallacious. Always. If there's actually a legitimate reason to see a further step down a certain path, you can make that argument based on those legitimate reasons.

    Any time anyone says it's a "slippery slope", you can freely disregard whatever else they have to say, because they're basically saying "I have no evidence at all but I'm going to try fearmongering about things anyway". If they had actual reasons, they argue based on those, instead. It's a phrase only used when they have no objective reason to honestly think things will go that way.

    Your example, FWIW, wasn't even a slippery slope argument. Slippery slope arguments state that because events led to Event/Situation/Fact X, they will continue in that same vein to Event/Situation/Fact Y, which they frame as further down a certain path from X

    It's a fallacy, because the only reason to go from X to Y is if there is a pressure towards Y. This was never shown, and a slippery slope argument assumes there is no such pressure, that we will "accidentally" slide from X to Y despite how awful Y objectively is. Not only is there an absence of evidence, the argument assumes that there is no evidence. It's not just bad logic, it's a way of saying "I have no evidence to back up my claims and no justification for whatever I'm saying."
    Last edited by Endus; 2013-05-18 at 05:37 AM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I get that.
    You implied that they "didn't come for communists yet" (as in "violated any part of the constitution"). That is clearly nonsense - because they did.
    Just so we're clear on the issue the Internet has no standing authority over what is or isn't constitutional. Reasonable search and seizure is open to interpretation on many levels.

  3. #243
    Such an irresponsible way to engage political debate. Nothing constructive comes out of this.

  4. #244
    Sooo many people with nothing to do but pretend they understand fallacies they probably haven't had to remember since high school. Put away the epeens kiddies. The US and the USSR are still so far apart conceptually that to even think of comparing the two is the very definition of "apples to oranges". The socioeconomic circumstances that led to one do not exist in the other, no matter how many "rights" you think are being violated (fun fact--stepping over rights now and then is nothing new for the Executive branch, which has been doing it practically since the Constitution was written).

    Anyway, stop the fearmongering and go to bed, or at least find more important things to do.

  5. #245
    Moderator chazus's Avatar
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    Part of the reason Stalin's reign was so horrific was the fact that, yes they had rules and a constitution... Yet none of it was ever followed. Anyone who questioned the КПСС during his time ended up buried within days.

    The USSR's downfall was a near hundred year process, with ups and downs. Two guys claiming it's 'going that way' haven't lived long enough to make that statement.
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  6. #246
    Mechagnome Thulyn's Avatar
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    The US is nowhere near USSR. But the US is fucked up, and need ALOT of fixing. But that time will come. Reason why the US Is still here is: Freedom.
    And thats why the USSR isn't.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Panszer View Post
    Reason why the US Is still here is: Freedom.
    And thats why the USSR isn't.
    That is bullshit. The reason the USSR went down was it's economy. It was inefficient and stale. Freedom had nothing to do with it.
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  8. #248
    In USSR you got:
    1. Free Kindergarten
    2. Free School (8-10 years)
    3. Free University Education, if you were not a complete failure, otherwise you could go to some specialized "college" to became a low-tech worker, like a barber or factory worker. Or you could go Army way - it had a lot of benifits.
    4. Free Healthcare
    5. Guaranteed Job for a profession you chose to study in the Uni, somewhere in the country (yes you had to move to some remote place sometimes, but hey - you want the job or not?). With adequate pay and benefits.
    6. Guaranteed place to live if you were in the need of one. It wasn't a 5 star Penthouse, though
    7. Guaranteed pension if you were in the workforce. Pension you could live on.

    The only thing you were not allowed to do is to criticize the government openly. You could complain about inefficiency in local institutions, but you couldn't be against the general Party Line and Ideology.

    Big Deal! Most people didn't care about that - they just lived their lives happily ever after. And never saw a KGB agent in their life, unless it was a family member or a friend.

    When you hear the stories about KGB, Gulags, Siberia, etc - you got to always remember - most Soviets - didn't even hear about that during the time it was "all over the place" as certain people would want you to believe. If you were a lawful citizen who didn't care about politics and Ideology - you were all set for a happy life. And if you were into politics and stuff - you still had a choice: a political career or life in prison. Most chose the former. And all the bad things about USSR you hear from the vocal minority that chose the later or from their relatives/kids/etc.
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  9. #249
    Brewmaster Knadra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    In USSR you got:
    1. Free Kindergarten
    2. Free School (8-10 years)
    3. Free University Education, if you were not a complete failure, otherwise you could go to some specialized "college" to became a low-tech worker, like a barber or factory worker. Or you could go Army way - it had a lot of benifits.
    4. Free Healthcare
    5. Guaranteed Job for a profession you chose to study in the Uni, somewhere in the country (yes you had to move to some remote place sometimes, but hey - you want the job or not?). With adequate pay and benefits.
    6. Guaranteed place to live if you were in the need of one. It wasn't a 5 star Penthouse, though
    7. Guaranteed pension if you were in the workforce. Pension you could live on.
    To me it looks like you sugar coating just how bad some of this actually was.

    For #6 for instance you said if people didn't get a place to live the government would provide one for them. By saying it was not a five star penthouse is quite an understatement. Government provided housing in Soviet Bloc countries was quite literally a slum, the likes of which are found almost nowhere in the modern day US.

    Interms of education I can see how the USSR might have outdone the US in that sense but in the long run the actual opportunities available to them are quite limited. Someone in a communist country might be able to live a comfortable life but not being able to have any stake in the actual outcome of the world is something that in my mind will put capitalism and democracy far ahead of communism.
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  10. #250
    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    No, I am not implying anything. Even if you want to hinge your bets on McCarthiesm, it ended decades ago. It would mean the opposite of US turning into USSR.

    How about on the government owned land that is specifically designated for foreign commerce?

    The fact that this should be directed at the person I was responding to, hasn't changed.
    Yeah, imagine that, you have the nerve to suggest I spent no time in USSR and I suggested that old people have bad memory. What an ass hole I am... Just a heads up as well, 'I forgot more than you'll ever know' is an old country song.
    Like every embassy in the world? (minus the diplomatic function)
    Government owned land hasn't been new since 10 000 bC
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  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    To me it looks like you sugar coating just how bad some of this actually was.
    It wasn't bad. Soviet Education was top notch and respected in the western world.
    Healthcare was adequate. Soviet Schools (in cities at least) had a doctor and a dentist on full-time, working right in the school, not just on call, but right there.

    As for 6. I said specifically that it's not a penthouse, so people won't think that it was a paradise. It's a place to live. Yes it's a slum. But it beats living in a cardboard box in an alley. And it was provided for free. And if you were a valued member of Soviet society (a scientist, a military officer, an engineer, etc) you got better accommodation - like a full flat with several rooms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Interms of education I can see how the USSR might have outdone the US in that sense but in the long run the actual opportunities available to them are quite limited. Someone in a communist country might be able to live a comfortable life but not being able to have any stake in the actual outcome of the world is something that in my mind will put capitalism and democracy far ahead of communism.
    I don't even know what you mean by "stake in the actual outcome of the world". Average citizens do not care about that, if It is what I think it is. And Soviet Scientists had a huge impact on the World and were (are) respected in the World.
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  12. #252
    ARTICLE 1. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a socialist state of workers and peasants.

    ARTICLE 2. The Soviets of Working People's Deputies, which grew and attained strength as a result of the overthrow of the landlords and capitalists and the achievement of the dictatorship of the proletariat, constitute the political foundation of the U.S.S.R.

    ARTICLE 3. In the U.S.S.R. all power belongs to the working people of town and country as represented by the Soviets of Working People's Deputies.

    ARTICLE 4. The socialist system of economy and the socialist ownership of the means and instruments of production firmly established as a result of the abolition of the capitalist system of economy, the abrogation of private ownership of the means and instruments of production and the abolition of the exploitation of man by man, constitute' the economic foundation of the U.S.S.R.
    Stopped reading right here. If you think this is "more rights and freedom than America" you have a very strange understanding of rights and freedom.

  13. #253
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    As for 6. I said specifically that it's not a penthouse, so people won't think that it was a paradise. It's a place to live. Yes it's a slum. But it beats living in a cardboard box in an alley. And it was provided for free. And if you were a valued member of Soviet society (a scientist, a military officer, an engineer, etc) you got better accommodation - like a full flat with several rooms.
    See, having grown up in Soviet-era style housing, you're definitely understating the problem. You're trying to compare a massive population in Russia to the homeless in America, which is a rather horrible false equivalency since there are plenty of poor people who do have work that you can compare to. And no matter how you look at it, being packed into a crumbling apartment complex like sardines with 2-3 families living together when you are also working full time is a pretty big drop from what you could expect in the US when you provide the same amount of work in the same area.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    If you were a lawful citizen who didn't care about politics and Ideology - you were all set for a happy life.
    LOL, yes nice way to rationalize all the atrocities the communists committed. But you forgot about one small detail:

    You were not alone. It only took 1 dissident from your family to get the entire family in trouble.

    Nevermind the mass starvations in some parts, the mass executions of priests, mass confiscations of property because they didn't like the rich etc.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Like every embassy in the world? (minus the diplomatic function)
    Government owned land hasn't been new since 10 000 bC
    You are comparing an embassy to Walmart...
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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    See, having grown up in Soviet-era style housing, you're definitely understating the problem. You're trying to compare a massive population in Russia to the homeless in America, which is a rather horrible false equivalency since there are plenty of poor people who do have work that you can compare to. And no matter how you look at it, being packed into a crumbling apartment complex like sardines with 2-3 families living together when you are also working full time is a pretty big drop from what you could expect in the US when you provide the same amount of work in the same area.
    Massive population of Russia didn't live in slums. Some did, but not the majority. Unless it was a post war times when almost every building was destroyed by bombing. After they've had rebuilt everything - slums were for people who were just starting their lives. Students and low-tech workers. Young families - MOVING OUT from their parents homes. And it was a start - they were not doomed to live in a slum for eternity. People were constantly moving up. Not all of them, but the vast majority. Because realistically it is impossible to provide a full flat for every family in a reasonable amount of time. People always had a choice to move to different area of the country - where they could've found better accommodations. Some of them cba'ed to do that for whatever reasons. Like in crowded Moscow or Leningrad. These are exceptions. Because as they say Moscow is not made of rubber. It can accommodate only that much people.

    And no I wasn't comparing to homeless people. I was making a point that in USSR you get a place to live for free. In US people have to work hard to get their own place. In USSR same people (with same dedication to work) would've gotten their own place for free. You couldn't be thrown out from your home in USSR just because you lost a job and can't pay for it. The place to live was guaranteed by constitution. And if you wanted a better place to live - you had options and you had to work in that direction.
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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    It wasn't bad. Soviet Education was top notch and respected in the western world.
    Healthcare was adequate. Soviet Schools (in cities at least) had a doctor and a dentist on full-time, working right in the school, not just on call, but right there.
    In Kiev, there were no doctors and a dentist on full-time. When I dislocated my shoulder in gym, we had the same nurses office as I did here. You go in, they look at you and tell you to go to a doctor or a dentist.

    The education was top notch, but I bet US schools would exceed those if the kids/parents followed the same rules. In uniform, both hands planted on the desk, with elbow still on desk you raise your right arm to ask or answer questions, teachers could smack you if you didn't behave. A system of pioneer got you on the road to Komsomol. During bomb drills, we were taken across the street to line up around a factory. In contrast, US had controversy over kids in school singing songs about the president.
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  18. #258
    I completely agree with the OP. People don't like to admit it, but this is what is happening to our country. It's not really even a slippery slope when it has already happened as well. For instance, the NDAA indefinite detention article says that the Government now has the right to detain a US citizen without giving them a fair trial, without giving them a lawyer, subjects them to torture and can be for absolutely anything. You see, that's not slippery slope, that's already happened. Not only that, but we can point to the the federal Government taking all the National Guard away from the states. By the Constitution states are supposed to be able to have there own specific militia (which is what the National Guard is) to defend their state, the Government has taken that right away.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wa...scal_Year_2007

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...scal_Year_2012

    Once again, these things aren't made up, they aren't on a slippery slope any longer.. They've already happened. The USA is no longer what it was meant to be, and has been stolen right from the people's hands. The only way to get it back is to fight for it. At the end of the day there will be three options: Allow the Government to control everything and everyone and to completely abuse you and your rights, to vote every Government expanding official out of office, or to grab your rifles and take up arms against the tyrants of our time. I personally hope for the second option, I'm ready to act on the third.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Massive population of Russia didn't live in slums. Some did, but not the majority. Unless it was a post war times when almost every building was destroyed by bombing. After they've had rebuilt everything - slums were for people who were just starting their lives. Students and low-tech workers. Young families - MOVING OUT from their parents homes. And it was a start - they were not doomed to live in a slum for eternity. People were constantly moving up. Not all of them, but the vast majority. Because realistically it is impossible to provide a full flat for every family in a reasonable amount of time. People always had a choice to move to different area of the country - where they could've found better accommodations. Some of them cba'ed to do that for whatever reasons. Like in crowded Moscow or Leningrad. These are exceptions. Because as they say Moscow is not made of rubber. It can accommodate only that much people.
    This isn't true. There were laws in place preventing folks from the farm land to move to big cities. My fathers first marriage had this as it's only purpose. Marriage was one of the few legal ways to move out of the farms into the city. This was all the way from the 30s, to combat the exodus of farm lands due to a massive famine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    And no I wasn't comparing to homeless people. I was making a point that in USSR you get a place to live for free. In US people have to work hard to get their own place. In USSR same people (with same dedication to work) would've gotten their own place for free. You couldn't be thrown out from your home in USSR just because you lost a job and can't pay for it. The place to live was guaranteed by constitution. And if you wanted a better place to live - you had options and you had to work in that direction.
    Can you list the things required for a move? What were the options?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    I completely agree with the OP. People don't like to admit it, but this is what is happening to our country. It's not really even a slippery slope when it has already happened as well. For instance, the NDAA indefinite detention article says that the Government now has the right to detain a US citizen without giving them a fair trial, without giving them a lawyer, subjects them to torture and can be for absolutely anything. You see, that's not slippery slope, that's already happened. Not only that, but we can point to the the federal Government taking all the National Guard away from the states. By the Constitution states are supposed to be able to have there own specific militia (which is what the National Guard is) to defend their state, the Government has taken that right away.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wa...scal_Year_2007

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...scal_Year_2012

    Once again, these things aren't made up, they aren't on a slippery slope any longer.. They've already happened. The USA is no longer what it was meant to be, and has been stolen right from the people's hands. The only way to get it back is to fight for it. At the end of the day there will be three options: Allow the Government to control everything and everyone and to completely abuse you and your rights, to vote every Government expanding official out of office, or to grab your rifles and take up arms against the tyrants of our time. I personally hope for the second option, I'm ready to act on the third.
    The fact that you can say the first paragraph, followed by the second. Is the reason why your agreement does not make sense. If the NDAA had a similar effect as USSR, you wouldn't broadcast the above opinion.
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  20. #260
    First they came for our privacy
    I remained silent,
    I was not a terrorist and I had nothing bad to say about the Government

    They then came for our 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th amendment rights,
    I remained silent,
    I was not a terrorist and did not speak out against the Government

    They then came for our guns
    I remained silent,
    I was not a terrorist, I had nothing bad to say about the Government, and I didn't own a gun.

    Then they came for our freedom of speech and the rest of my first amendment rights,
    I could no longer remain silent,
    I spoke out against the Government.

    Then they came for me.
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 06:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    This isn't true. There were laws in place preventing folks from the farm land to move to big cities. My fathers first marriage had this as it's only purpose. Marriage was one of the few legal ways to move out of the farms into the city. This was all the way from the 30s, to combat the exodus of farm lands due to a massive famine.



    Can you list the things required for a move? What were the options?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:39 PM ----------



    The fact that you can say the first paragraph, followed by the second. Is the reason why your agreement does not make sense. If the NDAA had a similar effect as USSR, you wouldn't broadcast the above opinion.
    Actually, I would have broadcasted the opinion one way or another, as I am ready for whatever punishment may come of my freedom of speech. These same things happened in the USSR at the same scale that they've happened in the US. The trampling of our rights.
    Last edited by Therionn; 2013-05-18 at 03:54 PM.

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