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  1. #1

    Will 5.3 see a return to 5.1 levels of representation for PvP rogues?

    Greetings all :-)
    Following some forums lately, I've noticed an unexpected absence of this question. Theres been a few about specific nerfs, but little concerning what the forthcoming ptr changes will mean to us.

    For that reason I thought it's worth making this thread. I implore posters to keep responses polite and impartial, without descending into "good, your OP" or "rogue pvp is over" type nonsense.

    My personal feelings are that we will be more viable than 5.1, but, not significantly more, and far more rare creatures than we are right now.

    My view regarding the nerfs is that the developers are at a point where they have almost given up the hope of balancing rogue pvp, and will probably make a more focused effort to do so in the next expansion - but perhaps I'm just overly negative :-).

    Looking back at 5.0 and 5.1 I tend to recall the majority of complaints being based around our survivability and mobility. There were some complaints regarding damage too, but I felt a lot this could simply be attributed to our lack of uptime on the target.

    Enter 5.2 -We got a lot,.ST poison nerf/damage buff. Base prep, more cloaks. DT buff, tier bonus buff, even minor assassination buffs and two new talents: cloak and dagger and marked for death. That's quite a lot, though to me, stuff like prep and cloak just felt like it had been a long time coming.

    What did we mainly gain? In my opinion minor survivability buffs from cloak/prep. Imporved anti kiting measures in the form of ST spam as as well as the combo points it developed which made deadly throw far more effective.
    The final thing we gained wasn't as much a mobility buff, but a burst mobility cooldown. While it's done nothing to help combat or assassination - cloak and dagger meant that subtlety's burst became far more effective in delivery.

    5.3 changes: I won't bother copy pasting current ptr changes, but in a nutshell, it seems like the majority of what changed in 5.2 is effectively being retracted. My guess is cloak and dagger will become unviable for all three specs and shadow step will make a return. Shureken toss will lose both its synergy with DT as well its functionality as a combo point generator, stripped also previously of its utility poison effect, my guess is most rogues will opt for marked for death, and in so doing potentially increasing burst damage while also increasing our ineffectiveness while kited.
    So, what substantial benefits will rogues have over the previous season, their most unsuccessful season to date? Your thoughts please :-).
    Last edited by Ouchy; 2013-05-16 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #2
    The 5.3 nerfs are very slight, not enough to take rogues back to 5.1 obscurity.

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  3. #3
    How can you rationalise this statement? I mean we are looking at having to give up possibly two playstyle defining talents, or do you believe C&D and ST will remain cookie cutter choices?

  4. #4
    The 5.3 nerfs are NOT "slight". You are correct that rogues won't be as bad as in 5.1, but the FW nerf is a big nerf, and the CnD nerf is also pretty big.

  5. #5
    Mechagnome
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    not quite, I think. But the little I've done of pvp on the ptr wasn't very amusing. I do believe c&a will be yet another forgotten talent, unfortunately. IT IS SO MUCH FUN and I'll miss it dearly. It still works with subterfuge, but outside that, it's completely useless. In bgs it might see a use, but in arenas, probably not, as anyone knows that the key to make rogue suffer, is to deny him a restealth, which then defeats the whole purpose of the talent, something we've all realised. Oh well.

    Opener damage seems a little low and disappointing.

    However, take these words with a grain of salt.

    As of now, I've only done 2 bgs and 2 duels (lost everything, including a duel against a - dare I say it - ele shaman). One part could ofc be me failing at using/understanding the hideousness known as the blizz standard UI which makes tracking stuff harder. Important stuff, like CPs, and those ridiculously tiny icons. My experiences and hope could possibly rise if I did more pvp, but the initial meeting with rogue pvp 5.3 hasn't left me entirely convinced

    If it stays as it is now, I do feel we'll see fewer rogues as the playstyle will be harder to master, when even other melee can kite you.

    None of my abilities did more than 70k (the ones I was able to land anyway) (gemming pvp power and full tyrannical) whereas I took a 100k+ powershot to the ass. Ofc, that hunter could've had buffs going, but hey, blizz standard UI, can't see shit.

    Im trying to duel people as I type, but with little success, like 5ht duel declined. It's like I'm on a fucking job search again-_-
    And I might improve my gameplay obviosuly if I keep playing ptr more, and not after being awake for 21 consecutive hours (yes, it's weak, I know!) either, and try different gemming approches (fancy trying full agi gemming, for instance).

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Faenskap View Post
    not quite, I think. But the little I've done of pvp on the ptr wasn't very amusing. I do believe c&a will be yet another forgotten talent, unfortunately. IT IS SO MUCH FUN and I'll miss it dearly. It still works with subterfuge, but outside that, it's completely useless. In bgs it might see a use, but in arenas, probably not, as anyone knows that the key to make rogue suffer, is to deny him a restealth, which then defeats the whole purpose of the talent, something we've all realised. Oh well.

    Opener damage seems a little low and disappointing.

    However, take these words with a grain of salt.

    As of now, I've only done 2 bgs and 2 duels (lost everything, including a duel against a - dare I say it - ele shaman). One part could ofc be me failing at using/understanding the hideousness known as the blizz standard UI which makes tracking stuff harder. Important stuff, like CPs, and those ridiculously tiny icons. My experiences and hope could possibly rise if I did more pvp, but the initial meeting with rogue pvp 5.3 hasn't left me entirely convinced

    If it stays as it is now, I do feel we'll see fewer rogues as the playstyle will be harder to master, when even other melee can kite you.

    None of my abilities did more than 70k (the ones I was able to land anyway) (gemming pvp power and full tyrannical) whereas I took a 100k+ powershot to the ass. Ofc, that hunter could've had buffs going, but hey, blizz standard UI, can't see shit.

    Im trying to duel people as I type, but with little success, like 5ht duel declined. It's like I'm on a fucking job search again-_-
    And I might improve my gameplay obviosuly if I keep playing ptr more, and not after being awake for 21 consecutive hours (yes, it's weak, I know!) either, and try different gemming approches (fancy trying full agi gemming, for instance).
    I can't comment on this whole post, but from what i hear every dps class is gemming their prim stat now, power and resil gems being cut in half made them not worth it at all, except maybe resil for healers still. And, i don't see a 100k powershot happening on the PTR with us losing: 4 pvp set bonus, even more pvp power (this is for everyone, though) and the fact that, i only ever hit 105k~ on live. (not saying that is balanced, nobody should be able to take out more than a 4th of someones health in one global, but hey chaos bolt, double eviscirate, frost bomb +orb etc lots of stuff does that on live right now :/)
    Last edited by Hunterpower; 2013-05-17 at 04:07 AM.

  7. #7
    To go 5.1 rep rogues would have to fall to 1.3%, they will go down a lot but probably not that much. The thing to remember is not just the rogue nerfs but all of our best partners were nerfed hard too.

  8. #8
    By the end of this tier? I think it's extremely likely. I'm not sure why bliz has to swing the pendulum with so much vigor, but they've been following the same formula for 8 years, I don't see things changing now :P

  9. #9
    It has been stated also in other threads - CnD was awesome for Sub beacuse of its synergy with Shadow Dance; the problem is that this synergy makes Shadow Dance a nearly unpeelable offensive CD (and required zero effort to use - referred as CnD).

    They simply broke it because it was too strong. Now it's not worth to take, because shadowstep grants a better mobility overall.

  10. #10
    Cloak and Dagger, Subterfuge as well as ST spam, at least to me, feel like rather cheap abilities. I know from an RPG type perspective they fit in quite well under the "shadowy assassin" type banner (well ST maybe not so much ) but they do little to improve our reputation as the most hated and more than likely most complained about class in wow.

    The fact however is, that to simply brake such abilities leaves us in quite a disadvantaged place as a class.
    CnD was a cheap fix, for the stated reasons, hard to peel, not mention only really beneficial for one spec. In braking that fix though, our mobility issues have been re-introduced. Sure, we will go back shadowstep, but a 24 second CD will still feel too long. Sprint will remain close to worthless and we will still be very susceptible to rooting and slows. Also, add to this a prediction that, based on the extra damage MfD can produce, we will feel it essential, and most of us will give up our only significant ranged ability to get it.

    From what I've been able to take from the ptr, our overall damage has been significantly reduced (I should mention I was pvp gem socketed though) via a combination of the pvp power change, FW nerf, CnD nerf/switch to SdS (predictably less burst uptime) and finally the swap from ST to MfD (granted some already roll with it).
    I know the benifit of a pvp power nerf can also be argued as a blessing, which, while lowering our damage, increases our fairly low survivability, but something I've already noted is most classes self healing, especially hybrids, has significantly increased. In contast, our increase seems underwhelming and harder to maintain recoup without the free points ST used to generate.
    Don't get me wrong, using double eviscerates was quite fun (only BG tested) and I scored some decent kills. Ultimately, it's far less an issue of damage but rather, a fundamental struggle with mobilty that will weaken us most.
    Last edited by Ouchy; 2013-05-17 at 12:46 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ouchy View Post
    ......they do little to improve our reputation as the most hated and more than likely most complained about class in wow.
    Tbh this is fine with me. The more people hate rogues the better. If I'm annoying someone then good!

    On topic. C&D was just over the edge of OP. Not as OP as some might suggest though. Dont forget as melee we need to sit on our target to do our burst and most stuff out there can peel us or kite us if needed. Without C&D and with most people taking ShS, our damage becomes predictable and easily avoided once again. At the same time its a lot harder to avoid the burst damage of other classes, particularly ranged.

    C&D needed changing, but to nerf it to the point no-one will take it is going too far.

    The nerfs to CS and Garrotte are not needed, neither is the FW nerf.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by redderz1 View Post
    Tbh this is fine with me. The more people hate rogues the better. If I'm annoying someone then good!

    On topic. C&D was just over the edge of OP. Not as OP as some might suggest though. Dont forget as melee we need to sit on our target to do our burst and most stuff out there can peel us or kite us if needed. Without C&D and with most people taking ShS, our damage becomes predictable and easily avoided once again. At the same time its a lot harder to avoid the burst damage of other classes, particularly ranged.

    C&D needed changing, but to nerf it to the point no-one will take it is going too far.

    The nerfs to CS and Garrotte are not needed, neither is the FW nerf.
    They are pretty much nerfing it into uselessness until they can replace it or find a solution that isnt OP.

    The FW nerf was good and bad. Good because bliz is finally making abilities behave differently for pve and pvp, which I hope they continue to do with all classes and abilities. It was bad because it was on us :P.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    They are pretty much nerfing it into uselessness until they can replace it or find a solution that isnt OP.

    The FW nerf was good and bad. Good because bliz is finally making abilities behave differently for pve and pvp, which I hope they continue to do with all classes and abilities. It was bad because it was on us :P.
    I really do not think we needed the FW nerf. On top of the PvPP nerf it seems like too much.

    I've spent several days now PvPing in full tyr gear on the ptr. Fully gemmed and enchanted. Trying different reforges and different gems.

    Im honestly seeing ambush crit for 30-35k. Evis for 60-70k. As you might imagine, sustained damage attacks are even worse. Ive seen hemo non crits of 7k, backstabs of 12k.....

    When as a class we are squishy and rely on getting the job done quick, the slowed pace of 5.3 pvp doesn't suit us at all. Neither does nerfing our control at the same time as nerfing our damage.

  14. #14
    Not at all. Rogues still have their damage and that is their major strength. Rogues were great in cataclysm without cloak and dagger for shadow dance, if anything we just need to adapt our playstyle slightly.

  15. #15
    If you guys suggest 70% armor penetration to 50% AP,and dagger turns into a shadowstep within 2 min CD(which can be used 3 times in 3 secs?) is slightly nerf. Maybe only the remove of "stealth" to rogues is "HUGE" nerf?

    From a 8 year rogue player's view, 5.3 rogue PVP? Try Assasination if you really want to.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by virginia0921 View Post
    If you guys suggest 70% armor penetration to 50% AP,and dagger turns into a shadowstep within 2 min CD(which can be used 3 times in 3 secs?) is slightly nerf. Maybe only the remove of "stealth" to rogues is "HUGE" nerf?

    From a 8 year rogue player's view, 5.3 rogue PVP? Try Assasination if you really want to.
    Assassination looks interesting for 5.3. The only issue I see is that there wouldn't be enough burst besides marked for death, and if you're not specced into that you will be at a serious disadvantage against wizards without shuriken toss. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes down.

  17. #17
    The Patient zanexlol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingzTV View Post
    Not at all. Rogues still have their damage and that is their major strength. Rogues were great in cataclysm without cloak and dagger for shadow dance, if anything we just need to adapt our playstyle slightly.
    Except that we had a hundred crit talents/modifiers in cataclysm, and a bunch of other stuff, that was removed with mop.

    Dumbed down. Bleh, bleh.
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  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire Wootylicious's Avatar
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    combination of rogue nerfs + buffs to almost every other melee will make us rather unwanted.

  19. #19
    We are actually worse off than 5.1, which I didn't think was possible given prep/step on the same tier

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DreamingzTV View Post
    Not at all. Rogues still have their damage and that is their major strength. Rogues were great in cataclysm without cloak and dagger for shadow dance, if anything we just need to adapt our playstyle slightly.
    Yes we were fine then but now that every other class has more mobility and all we have is Shadowstep, its impossible to keep uptime on targets.

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