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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    It's not hard at all to stand and do the rotation.

    It's the hardest thing in the game to do the fight mechanics correctly and maintain DPS.

    There are many gaps where movement is required but you have nothing you can cast while moving. Rune of Power compounds the issue because you have to recast it after movement.

    The challenge is doing what you can to plan ahead, timing snapshotting before movement, refreshing your L90 talent (which should generally be RoP), and not screwing up the mechanics of a fight.

    In any other tier Arcane might be playable, but in ToT Heroic it's damned near impossible unless you can get the strategies to be built around you standing still.
    You forgot the hardest of all steps: educating the rest of your raid. Getting them to avoid being around you so that a boss ability doesn't target them while they are near you, forcing you to move. I swear that people see the runes on the ground as some sort of a bonus for them to stand in. Trying to convey to them that they cannot be near you because it can hamper your DPS by a huge amount and they actually listen is a challenge all to itself.
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    How do you figure that? Since tanks DPS rotation is as important, if not more important than any DPS's rotation. Especially considering as for most tanks, their rotation is directly linked to their rotation.
    honestly its been a while since i progressed as a tank in 25m heroic (raggi hc and early ds hc) so my pov (heroic 25m) may be outdated. the main factor i found the skill cap is rather low is that the rotations were very blunt and also had rather low impact on your dps as external sources like vengeance uptime and expertise/hit were ways more important. so the gain of perfectly pushing your 4 dps buttons was abysmal.
    so as long as your macro was okay (pulling boss the right way, using your cds properly) the tank was very good.
    as a dps you're always competing against one or two of your own class so i find it more interesting and rewarding to work on your dps output as the equivalent of skill was measurable.


    Keeping yourself alive as a tank is much harder than keeping yourself alive as a dps.
    in high end guilds? never had a tougher time staying alive as a hunter in ds hc before det buff.
    as a tank the damage income is always predictable. if the boss hits hard, start with your short cd low resistance cd. if it runs out and you drop low, activate next cd/trinket. and so on. quite easy once you learned it the right way. you hardly have to even look for them as its always alternating.
    taunt 1: low cd cd, later trinket or longer cd, afterwards cd 2
    taunt 2: low cd cd, other long time cd, external cd
    taunt 3: repeat from step one.

    If you die as a tank it is most likely a direct wipe since it often result in secondary deaths before you can get ressed.
    All while focusing on your defensive CDs etc you also have to focus on your rotation.
    obviously its more dangerous if a tank dies but unless you screw up cds (low skillcap to me) or your Ot doesnt taunt (low skillcap either) its not your fault and is more a point of healers allocation.

    Not saying tanks have the highest skill cap, though it is very likely. Maybe healers.
    probably things have changed alot and tank rotations got very interesting/complex. i find healers to be very different, but as rare as skillfull healers are, as rare can they shine (it was incredible what impact healers had on fights like raggi back then).ild definitely agree with you here. highest skillcap but least recognized

    Saying that a tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environments could be applied to any dps class in the same fashion as a tank dps rotation is just as important as a tanks. If you are at that stage of the game that your tank is pressing random buttons and you are still killing the boss. If your tank was pressing the correct buttons you could instead have 1 dps and 1 healer pressing random buttons.
    rather the opposite to me. if not every dps pulls 100% youll have no chance to beat enrage unless your gear advantage is very high. and as i said, tank rotation had rather low impact back then. especially when you didnt have vengeance during offtanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    This has nothing to do with OP's question. It's not "when is coming close to skillcap needed" but "what's the higher skillcap class out here". Whether you play in LFR, in a top 10000 guild or in a top 10 guild doesn't change the class skillcap.
    always a matter of opinion. to me skill is a combination of "macro" and "micro". as a tank the macro is rather hard like maintaing rotation, moving boss, cd management and most tanks in non top 100 and even top end tanks dont shine in it. but once youre above the point of learning it, it gets rather unimportant how skillful you are beyond.
    for dps the macro would be rotation without standing in the fire which is very easy comparatively except probably less predictable as lots of abilities dont even hit you every try in 25m.
    but the perfect execution of the rotation would be the micro for me both have in common. as the tanks rotation is (was) rather blunt and unimportant ild call its impact and skillcap rather low. whereas as a dps always gains more of perfect execution as hes in a direct comparison with his classmates/wol.
    tldr: if you learned your tanking macro, youre pretty much settled as a tank. if you are a dps, improve steadily or you lose your raidspot.
    Last edited by kalo; 2013-05-20 at 02:29 PM.

  3. #123
    You are comparing Cata tanking with Cata/MoP dpsing. MoP changed a lot in tanking.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    rather the opposite to me. if not every dps pulls 100% youll have no chance to beat enrage unless your gear advantage is very high. and as i said, tank rotation had rather low impact back then. especially when you didnt have vengeance during offtanking.
    So tell me. What is the difference between a dps playing badly and doing 50k dps less then he should or a tank playing badly and doing 50k dps less than he should?

    The only real difference is that the tank playing badly would be more likely to cause raid wipes, also the damage difference between a good tank and a tank is larger than the difference between a good or bad dps.

    You are living in the past. Back in Cata I would agree with you, but this is not Cata anymore.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-20 at 03:58 PM.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #124
    Blademaster Taktics's Avatar
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    I'm with all of the people who said any flavor of DPS spec Druid. I've played most classes, and they are the class I've found that in order to play at the peak level, you have to manage about 20 more things than the next class. You pull them off? You pull amazing numbers. You miss one refresh of dots, or are a second late on your Savage Roar? Bottom of the meters. Also. Warlocks.

  5. #125
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    but the perfect execution of the rotation would be the micro for me both have in common. as the tanks rotation is (was) rather blunt and unimportant ild call its impact and skillcap rather low. whereas as a dps always gains more of perfect execution as hes in a direct comparison with his classmates/wol.
    tldr: if you learned your tanking macro, youre pretty much settled as a tank. if you are a dps, improve steadily or you lose your raidspot.
    if that's how you few tanking, then your not min/maxing so in turn your not reaching the potential of your tanking class. i could go out and only keep up shuffle and cycle my cd's as needed, and live just fine hoping the dps will meet the enrage timers, or the burst aoe, whatever and do 90k dps, or i could do all those things while watching all my timers making sure not to push back KS, not waiting on energy, not letting my energy saturate much if ever, choosing between offensives and defensive's with my chi, take a more dps oriented talent then a tanking one because i know i could be doing more to help the raid then just standing there and holding the boss in place, so now i do 150k dps

  6. #126
    Not to mention, atleast as a paladin tank, watching the boss swing timer is vital. Timing in your SotR as close to a boss swing timer as possible to get maximum coverage.

    DPSers dont really need to track boss swing timer and a miss timed spell could be equal to raid wipe.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #127
    Feral Druids and affliction locks are probably at the tougher end cos of the micro management but when done right put out big numbers. On the other hand destruction is one of the easier specs to play and still puts out big damage.

  8. #128
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    It really depends on how big of a difference you'd want. Personally I play a moonkin. We perform well on most bosses & we're range (HIGH FIVE). However, Moonkin isn't the hardest class to maximise (might be on top 5, not quite sure), but I think It's one of the most complex classes to learn. Basicly if you're a good player that have played dot classes or just range class such as Mage/Spriest/Lock then learning it should be simple. If you're talking about the difference between a player doing a normal "Lunar DOT DOT STARFIRE ---> Solar DOT DOT wrath" rotation then the difference is huge.

    I would think that feral is the best answer to your question though. The DPS difference between a DoC player & a HOTW player is huge. On a fight such as horridon (a fight that includes a lot of adds dying) then affli might become harder as the haunt management will be very different from a normal single-target fight.
    My personal opinion.

  9. #129
    Hotw feral and doc feral is roughly 5% difference. And that's assuming perfect play of doc which is imo pretty difficult to pull off. A matter of opinion but I wouldn't consider a less than 5% delta as "huge". Also you bring another raid cd with hotw/tranq.

  10. #130
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    I think Demo fits the bill more than Affliction, especially with the ULVS Dooms right now. If I play Demo perfectly on Council, I'm at 400k two minutes in, but if I mess up, it's like half that. Demo doesn't get the luxury of starting with full resources, and fury requires a little more finesse to manage than shards.

    Personally I don't think Aff is all that hard to play very well, even on a fight like Horridon, but I've yet to rank on 10heroic Horridon as Aff yet (236k last week), so what do I know. Lots of adds dying is something we Locks love though. Moar Shards.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Wot about MM Hunters? They have high Focus regeneration from bonus Haste, having to cast a Focus-gaining Ability two times, and from sometimes casting Focus-free Shots, thus being left behind with a narrow Timeframe to dump their focus for their Abilities so I believe that MM Hunters have a high Skill cap.
    The only problem is high Reward because even playing MM Hunter in a very skillfull way does not yield competetive DPS.
    MM hunter isn't really that difficult and at the same time the reward for executing flawlessly is about the same as a bad warlocks DPS.

  12. #132
    Don't just say "warlocks" cus Destro is fucking faceroll, time your CB's with procs. EZ.
    Though i must say, feral is annoying as fuck..
    - Moonkin is hard as you say, but as a dot class, Aff locks are alot harder than moonkins.
    As previous stated, runes are hard too, so i must say DK's (frost is bit easy though) and Affliction.

  13. #133
    Bloodsail Admiral Chrispotter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    Classes with energy, rage, focus, runes/rp whatever you want to call it, classes that doesn't use mana.
    and what about specs that use Mana AND another resource? I.e Demo Locks Mana and Fury or Boomkins with mana and luner/solar power?
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  14. #134
    Any class that requires you to take advantage of snapshotting during trinkets for your damage over time abilities. This is why you keep seeing feral, warlocks, and boomkins mentioned. As someone to tell you the rotation for any of the above with their tier 15 trinkets and their struggle to explain to you because its not easy to tell you that sometimes you do things and other times you don't. Boomkins have a retardedly easy rotation UNTIL you add in a 30% haste meta gem, a 100% crit trinket, and a trinket with stacking int. Or any of the other trinket combinations that are viable.

    It all depends why you are asking the question though. Are you looking for people to see how skillful you are? And guarantee that raid spot for yourself? Then don't play DPS. People can easily be "good enough" at dps and make the raid. If you want to stand out you should consider becoming a healer or tank that really understands how your class stands out. Alternately, be a dps player with multiple geared toons, and a high knowledge of which fights your toons are advantageous on.

  15. #135
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incrediblade View Post
    Any class that requires you to take advantage of snapshotting during trinkets for your damage over time abilities. This is why you keep seeing feral, warlocks, and boomkins mentioned. As someone to tell you the rotation for any of the above with their tier 15 trinkets and their struggle to explain to you because its not easy to tell you that sometimes you do things and other times you don't. Boomkins have a retardedly easy rotation UNTIL you add in a 30% haste meta gem, a 100% crit trinket, and a trinket with stacking int. Or any of the other trinket combinations that are viable.
    I think this is definitely something, although personally I never found snapshot stats too much extra difficulty. I certainly wish they'd bring them back fully for everyone though as it makes things a lot more interesting as one of the classes who now scales.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Assassination Rogue

    There's a huge difference between one who mashes buttons and one who plans out their rotation 10+ seconds into the future.
    lolwut assassin is prob the one of the easiest specs in the game atm..Sure you have to plan ahead but its very easy to plan ahead a 3 button rotation

  17. #137
    Mechagnome Layuth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankz0 View Post
    What about the different resources? Which one do you guys think is most forgiving and most punishing when handeled wrong or right? Energy, rage or mana?
    Most Punishing = Eclipse Bar
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Layuth View Post
    Most Punishing = Eclipse Bar
    Oh please...
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well like I said, I am not trying to say that it is hard evidence. Just pointed out what the logs say the difference are in dps output between top 25% and top 1% of each class.

    A full list from high to low.

    Demonology Warlock
    Feral Druid
    Combat Rogue
    Destruction Warlock
    Fire Mage
    Windwalker Monk
    Balance Druid
    Elemental Shaman
    Fury Warrior
    Shadow Priest
    Affliction Warlock
    Retribution Paladin
    Assassination Rogue
    Unholy Death Knight
    Frost Mage
    Arms Warrior
    Survival Hunter
    Enhancement Shaman
    Frost Death Knight
    Beastmaster Hunter

    Still, not it is not a good evidence. Rather a guideline.
    Too bad not every class scale the same with gear...

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    Too bad not every class scale the same with gear...
    Yes that is of course the other issue which is why I said
    'Still, it is not a good evidence'
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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