View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #201
    The Lightbringer Alceus's Avatar
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    What I would do is

    HCDUNGEONS> heroic dungeons drop heroic blue's + 'LFR' lvl weapons @ last bosses
    LFR> have LFR only drop lfr level gear + necklaces etc (no trinkets) + "small chance of 'normal lvl' drop"
    make the gap between HC dungeons and LFR smaller and slightly increase gap between LFR and NORMAL
    JP> JP for gear to enter LFR or slightly increase overall iLVL or for PvP entry
    VP> VP for normal lvl rings and necklaces + trinkets
    NORMAL RAID> Normal raids drop normal lvl gear and weapons with a small chance of a 'heroic drops' @ overall bosses
    HEROIC RAID> heroic raids drop hc level gear and weapons + an 'elite drop' @ last boss (elite lvl = next tier normal lvl?)

    ^it's late, might be confusing^
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  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    There is a big difference between a lazy person who refuses to get better constantly being bad to a person who doesn't log in often but still has his toon properly reforged,chanted, haste break points, etc, he does good dps/hps when he plays then logs off after.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:08 PM ----------



    And when do you think the bad game play will stop, or even where will it stop? WIll the people who are so bad they cant even do easy 10man, be mad and want yet another mode made for them called i forgot to breathe and pass out mode?

    All of this is the problem that started with wrath babies and nerfs, and is only going to get worse and worse as players want increasingly easier content because they do not want to learn to actually play the game they pay for.
    Hey all I know is if we fill the difficulty gap, then that's less reason to whine. If its on the same lockout as normal and heroic, why does that hurt anyone?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Tot was nerfed quite a while back, i wasnt referring to t14.
    My apologies I thought you ment t14, however those were more balancing/tuning then nerfing. Horridon/Council/Tortos were more difficult then the later bosses of the tier, we wiped more on Horridon then any other fight in ToT normal (except maybe Lei Shen, don't remember the total for him) ... Ji'Kun/Consorts/Dark Animus were far easier (we 1 shot Consorts, really under tuned for where they are) so they had to balance the initial bosses better.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

    LFR
    Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
    Normals (10 or 25)
    Heroic (10 or 25)
    I think the thing is, what if easy mode is too hard? Or what if it's too easy, but normal mode is still too hard? I don't think we should just continue to make different modes of the same raid just because not everyone can full clear the type of mode that they want. It becomes a slippery slope right off the bat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Manhands View Post
    [insert comment about how you pooped on the word "casual" but then used the word "bads"]
    Didn't poop on the word casual, I'm just saying that it's incorrectly used quite a bit on these forums... and "long term bads" is probably a more accurate word anyway lol.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Alceus View Post
    What I would do is

    HCDUNGEONS> heroic dungeons drop heroic blue's + 'LFR' lvl weapons @ last bosses
    LFR> have LFR only drop lfr level gear + necklaces etc (no trinkets) + "small chance of 'normal lvl' drop"
    make the gap between HC dungeons and LFR smaller and slightly increase gap between LFR and NORMAL
    JP> JP for gear to enter LFR or slightly increase overall iLVL or for PvP entry
    VP> VP for normal lvl rings and necklaces + trinkets
    NORMAL RAID> Normal raids drop normal lvl gear and weapons with a small chance of a 'heroic drops' @ overall bosses
    HEROIC RAID> heroic raids drop hc level gear and weapons + an 'elite drop' @ last boss (elite lvl = next tier normal lvl?)

    ^it's late, might be confusing^
    That would force all normal mode raiders to do LFR each week.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #206
    I don't see the relevance of a "gap" between normal and LFR. LFR is just like a 25 man dungeon, shouldn't remotely count as raiding.
    And also, why are some people posting about gear and loot when the OP is talking about the perceived difficulty?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    Some people rather raid with friends/family but they don't want to kick them as they would rather raid with those individuals then other people (wife/husbands, or kids, RL friends etc). Even though they do raid with those people solely because of these relationships if you hit a brick wall and have no hopes of passing it you will find something else to do and this is why groups fall apart. There is a group of raiders (and blizzard has mentioned this) that want to have Organized Social Raiding but normal is too difficult for them. LFR is very anti-social and requires no organization. An "Easy" difficulty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LFR in every way
    The question is, why should there be guaranteed kills of bosses in the first place? And if they were in place, don't you think the same people that think LFR is boring would think the new difficulty would be boring as well? Why not run dungeons or scenarios with your friends instead? Also, you can still queue up for LFR with all of your friends for a social experience any time you want, the only person stopping the social experience is yourself - no need for blizz to create something brand new for this.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I think the thing is, what if easy mode is too hard? Or what if it's too easy, but normal mode is still too hard? I don't think we should just continue to make different modes of the same raid just because not everyone can full clear the type of mode that they want. It becomes a slippery slope right off the bat.
    All I know is the lead encounter designer has said they want to offer something to the people not currently being served and I would much rather them make a different difficulty then mess with normal. I like normals current difficulty.

  9. #209
    Hey Hey, sorry if someone has suggested this already, but i would love to see a on the fly nerf to normals chosen by the raid leader.

    I can see it being like the dragon soul 5% a week nerf, only you can chose to go right to 30% if you want to at the cost of gear ilvl (say 4 ilvl's for each 5% you nerf the content) Whats good about this, epically in ToT, is it allows you to overcome bosses that might otherwise stop you in your tracks.
    You could for example kill the first boss on normal, the next on a 30% nerf and the one after that on a 10% depending on how you feel, it would also give normal raiders who don't normally use this system a way to "skip" a boss so they can try and progress on to the next.

    As a 10 man normal raider i like this idea, or some of the others more than putting 10 mans back to how they where in WotLK.

  10. #210
    The obvious answer is to change the gap to 13 item levels instead of 20. Simple as that. Also, as a hardcore raider I don't really see why the fights have to be so hard for casuals. They're obviously not meant for people like me, we do heroic.

  11. #211
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Get better rather than waiting for blizz to hand hold? I mean I'm sorry if that offends anyone but if you can't even complete normal modes maybe gaming isn't for you. You're not entitled to clear an entire raid just because you pay to play wow.

    One small thing they could do is give 2/5 Battle rezzes in normal instead of 1/3 (keep it the same in heroic), not sure that would be that effective since if people are dying on a boss that much whatever "check" is still unlikely to be met (whether it's healing/add control/dps)
    Last edited by Varyk; 2013-05-18 at 05:53 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by brainwashed View Post
    I've read this whole thread and I havnt seen anything that really broaches the main problem... tone down the ramp up dificulty of the first 3 bosses of the tier... Horridon and Council are killing guilds with slightly less organisation/ skilled players... maybe blizzard got the boss order wrong?
    if guilds had 3 slightly easier bosses to farm gear from instead of brick walling on Horridon and Council.. none of these posts would even be here.
    Our raid actually found Totos to be terribly difficult and is completely baffled by Dorumu. We're now on our third berserk wipe (it's a life drain issue, of course, but why they had such a relatively tight timer baffles me). With 100+ wipes on three normal bosses, I'm getting fairly frustrated and burned out. This despite the fact that I actually like playing my rogue in raids.

    What I'm saying is that the pain basically continues. Dorumu is a good example of what's wrong: there are so many places where you just die and one death pretty much ends the fight.

    I'll say this: they should strongly consider changing the number of battle-rezes available in normal. Heroic, of course, should stay the same. That is one very easy idea that would make normal modes easier on groups. Bringing people back with higher resources in normal is also a thought.

    The have violated a bunch of "here's what you don't do on normal" rules this expansion: very tight timers, fights that demand all players learn vehicle mechanics (I'm thinking Ambershaper), lots of one-shot mechanics (Dorumu has a knockback that eliminates any chance of b-rez, the maze, the eye-beam, running the beams past the objects, and I'm probably forgetting more). I cannot believe that an encounter designer thought that a complex add fight like Horridon wouldn't be a problem. I thought it was a problem the minute I read it; it was worse in reality. And then to follow it up with a council fight? /Facepalm.

  13. #213
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    The obvious answer is to change the gap to 13 item levels instead of 20.
    That suggest it's a gear issue when it clearly isn't.

    It's an issue most average/bad players have, believing gear is the solution rather than actually learning how to play better.

    How was my guild able to clear MSV in all blues when there are people who still can't do it in ToT LFR gear? We're not even super elite (76th US), we raid 3 days a week like most casual guilds.
    Last edited by Varyk; 2013-05-18 at 05:55 AM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    That suggest it's a gear issue when it clearly isn't.
    And more people kill MSV bosses now, more than ever because of the nerf and better gear. Better gear helps a lot.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    All I know is the lead encounter designer has said they want to offer something to the people not currently being served and I would much rather them make a different difficulty then mess with normal. I like normals current difficulty.
    I think the thing is, a second easy mode probably wouldn't help the problem, because if it requires a lack or coordination or learning the fight, people would end up bored with it like they do with LFR. Just look at 5 mans, they overnerfed them into the ground and now nobody wants to do them - plus doing the same 12 bosses twice would end up burning anyone out.

    As for the social aspect of raiding, you can just do that in LFR, get some buddies, hop on vent, yada yada yada, you know the drill.

    I think the real issue here is that some people want "challenging" content but dont' like it if they wipe on it at the same time to be honest lol.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    I think the thing is, a second easy mode probably wouldn't help the problem, because if it requires a lack or coordination or learning the fight, people would end up bored with it like they do with LFR. Just look at 5 mans, they overnerfed them into the ground and now nobody wants to do them - plus doing the same 12 bosses twice would end up burning anyone out.

    As for the social aspect of raiding, you can just do that in LFR, get some buddies, hop on vent, yada yada yada, you know the drill.

    I think the real issue here is that some people want "challenging" content but dont' like it if they wipe on it at the same time to be honest lol.
    I'm pretty sure nobody wanted to do Grim Batol either, BECAUSE it was hard.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

    LFR
    Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
    Normals (10 or 25)
    Heroic (10 or 25)
    I would like that, but problem is people still think normal = avarage, and they think they are better then they trully are, and wouldn't want to run easy. Constant whine for nerfs would continue .

  18. #218
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    I think 10m easier than 25m and drops lower ilvl loot would yield a lot of lost subscriptions. There are now a lot of hardcore 10 man guilds who would then be "forced" to go back to 25 man raiding, pretty bad to go back to that design.

    I think adding an "easier" difficulty level might not be a bad thing except it would add even more grinding required while gearing up. Maybe add this and ditch some of the other grinds currently required aka dailies/rep (I'm sure that would piss some people off, but not me, so just my opinion).

  19. #219
    If i had my way this how i would do it. first off LFR would be available in both 10 and 25 and you have to queue as a group like HC scenarios in 5.3, and you can also tune LFR to be a bit more challenging since its an organized group(think 25%-30% nerf normal DS in difficulty). so you can queue as a 25m, 10m or a 5m (to get paired with another 5m and make a 10m LFR run). These groups can be cross realm use the current loot system by default but it can be changed to 2/6 drops for the raid size by the raid leader or something. This will increase community interaction and get pugs going again, while also actually introducing players to organized raiding not the chaotic clusterfuck that LFR is now. as for 10/25 for normal and HC have 25m drop upgraded gear by 6 ilvls (thunderforged) and make 10m gear have no upgrades. 10m players can upgrade their gear for 750 valor. and separate achievements for 10m and 25m. (can still have shared lockout) it gives 25m a little something extra while not taking aything away from 10m (other than they have to farm valor more than 25m raiders do to make up for logistics). this way 10m is still challenging and its has its progression races and so does 25m. I would also have 25m have different mechanics instead of just like 10m except 5 people have to do it insetad of 3(stone guard a perfect example of how a fight can be tuned differently but not neccesarily equal on 10m and 25m). Hopefully this will end 10 vs 25 debates since 25m and 10m raid groups wont be competeing. they can get the same gear and have the same relative challenge for their raid size, and LFR is a good introduction to organized raiding.

  20. #220
    It's a problem with convenience. Players want convenience of a raid without any of the characteristics of what makes a raid a raid.

    It seems Blizzard has described this "gap" of players who want the necessity of group coordination but also don't want to perform at their classes potential so they can bring friends.

    So what kind of skill are we talking about here? It's so arbitrary and these two ideas conflict each other. Coordination is called upon when something is difficult. Being able to afford to bring along a bad player calls for reduced difficulty which doesn't just affect the "friends" roll it affects the roll of the entire raid.

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