How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Osmeric]

In principle I agree, but I think the game needs to retain that prestige that comes with being the best at it; heroic modes are part of that prestige. I recall Ghostcrawler’s commentary about how quickly players should be “progressing”, and that they tend to give up when something seems insurmountable. I’d guess you hold the opinion that gradual nerfs are part of that solution, but historically players just want to progress their characters and killing end bosses doesn’t seem to be a part of that.

No, I don't believe in progressive nerfs. Nor do I believe in a ramp of difficulty across a normal mode raid instance.

IMO, normal mode content needs to be easy right from the start. There can be harder content for the hardcore, but there is no need for their to be a smooth transition from the former to the latter. If anything, it should happen at a natural breakpoint, like after the last boss of normal mode, so there isn't a feeling of failure for stopping. The hardcore content does not need to be tuned for the top players.

I think the idea that casuals get bored when content is too easy, and then unsub, is greatly overstated. I think people unsub when they get frustrated and depressed, and when their friends leave them, and when it all seems pointless. A smooth ramp of difficulty guarantees that guilds will eventually progress to their level of incompetence and stall out, and if they haven't finished what they wanted to finish the fun dies.

[Deleted]

Whether you like it or not, those new players will soon be the ones the "long term players" are relying on to fill their rosters. When push comes to shove, Blizzard have done their best to keep older players happy via the introduction of heroic modes. And while I hate using the armoury on people, you've only managed Jin'rokh on heroic. You, or your guild, would barely be affected by downtuning entry bosses to the way they were in WotLK and, I daresay, would benefit from it.

and you are 0/13 hc progress, but you did manage to clear normal ToT. It wasn't all lols and roses, just like for us I guess, but we tried, we didn't give up and we eventually cleared it. Now, how would you feel if they reduced the difficulity of normals, so everyone could do it? You and me we would be on same boat with morons who are stuck on normal Horidon at this point even after all this nerfs. I don't know how you feel, but for me it would be a like spit in the face..

[Pua]

No, I don't believe in progressive nerfs. Nor do I believe in a ramp of difficulty across a normal mode raid instance.

It was just a guess on my part, and I apologise for putting words in your mouth.

IMO, normal mode content needs to be easy right from the start. There can be harder content for the hardcore, but there is no need for their to be a smooth transition from the former to the latter.

I see what you’re saying, and there’s a bit of support from the community on it; namely that people feel they’re expected to clear a place three times before they’re done with it.

In Firelands or Dragon Soul, the natural progression was just fine because they were painfully small tiers. With a 12-boss raid instance that my guild cleared for the first time a fortnight ago, essentially starting progression all over again is… Not fun.

Call me interested in what you think the solution would be.

If anything, it should happen at a natural breakpoint, like after the last boss of normal mode, so there isn't a feeling of failure for stopping.

The fact Jin’rokh heroic is comfortably easier than Lei Shen normal would probably testify to this. Guessing again, but you seem to be implying that the first heroic boss should be unquestionably more difficult than the last normal one.

Hard to disagree.

The hardcore content does not need to be tuned for the top players.

I disagree here, though.

The hardcore content, to me, does need to be tuned for the top players; at least to start with. Otherwise, the community is failing to serve the skilled few that many underneath will often unquestionably aspire to.

I think the idea that casuals get bored when content is too easy, and then unsub, is greatly overstated. I think people unsub when they get frustrated and depressed, and when their friends leave them, and when it all seems pointless. A smooth ramp of difficulty guarantees that guilds will eventually progress to their level of incompetence and stall out, and if they haven't finished what they wanted to finish the fun dies.

While “fun” is a subjective term, I often find myself asking:

”Is this fun?”

Why am I doing these dailies?
Why am I growing these pink turnips?
Why am I buying these Haunted Spirits?

I’m not ashamed to admit that I found the game more fun when it was easier, because I could play with my friends. We used to laugh about when they made a mistake, now a single mistake is enough to make someone feel like a leper.

It ain’t right.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 01:49 PM ----------

and you are 0/13 hc progress, but you did manage to clear normal ToT. It wasn't all lols and roses, just like for us I guess, but we tried, we didn't give up and we eventually cleared it. Now, how would you feel if they reduced the difficulity of normals, so everyone could do it? You and me we would be on same boat with morons who are stuck on normal Horidon at this point even after all this nerfs. I don't know how you feel, but for me it would be a like spit in the face..

Forgive me for jumping to this conclusion, but you and I are probably in essentially the same boat guild-wise. Above average players in the main, no baddies, and not that much time spent raiding - I'll guess you run, say, three nights a week?

Anyway.

I'm comfortable going on record and saying that if they sent the instance out of the gate MUCH easier than it was, I'd have still enjoyed working on it as much as I did assuming the later bosses, particularly Lei Shen, were just as challenging. When we first killed Horridon I didn't say "Wow, that was epic!"

I said "thank fuck that SHIT boss is down, now we can get on with this".

Compare that to our Lei Shen kill which, for the first time in genuinely a couple of years, I heard actual nerd screams when the achievement toast popped. That might have been because we went into the final phase and didn't expect to kill it due to lolmistakes on the phases prior, but it was still a great kill. Normal Yogg-Saron and Arthas were both difficult enough, and I still believe Ragnaros 2.0 NORMAL was one of the best fights Blizzard have made (although the ending was a bit daft).

But you do touch on an issue I've worried about for a while.

Namely, the impact nerfing content has on the players who kill it afterwards. I would absolutely LOVE to see Blizzard make two instances but send them out differently; the first, they should overtune and then nerf, but the next they sent out undertuned and then buff. Each difficulty would end up the same, but the reaction from the players would probably be poles apart.

I believe nerfing content "just so casuals can clear it" is unbelievably patronising, and I hated it when it happened in Firelands whilst it was still current tier. Personally, I reckon casual players would get much more from an instance that was unknowingly undertuned, but they still got together and beat the challenge as intended rather than having to have it "dumbed down" for them.

Of course, that's just an opinion and many would argue that it's the same thing and doesn't matter.

My experience says otherwise.

It's food for thought.

[Nobleshield]

On the subject of normal and heroic, I wish they'd implement a feature they talked about during Cataclysm's build-up, where you could unlock heroic bosses not by clearing the raid on normal, but after X many kills of that boss.

[Deleted]

Not for me Arothand; normal is not for the cutting edge player that clears heroics. The guilds that chased world first Lei Shen/Raden didn't even need normal gear because they are just that far ahead. With that argument normal has to be necessarily difficult to keep their interest whilst they wait for heroics.

I haven't "nerd-screamed" since Arthas - for me the current content is just something I have to execute mechanically whilst praying the people I play with don't mess up a try. In my opinion new players just aren't being trained for that.

[palamanian]

There needs to be a 4th option of "leave it the way it is", there really isn't any other option for Blizzard at the moment. I'm not sure adding another difficulty setting would do anything other than confuse new players even more.

[Mad_Murdock]

There needs to be a 4th option of "leave it the way it is", there really isn't any other option for Blizzard at the moment. I'm not sure adding another difficulty setting would do anything other than confuse new players even more.

Why would it confuse players ? Players really aren't as dumb as everyone likes to make them out to be.

If Blizzard created a Bronze, Silver, Gold tiers of raiding, I don't see how even new raidiers would be very confused. You start at Bronze, then go Silver and then go Gold. Or call it L1, L2, L3. Start at L1 and progress up. The only confusing part is if they tried to give it fancy names so people don't get their feelings hurt. "I'm triple black Diamond raider" Bob is "Gold premiere elite raider" that would be confusing.

[Pua]

On the subject of normal and heroic, I wish they'd implement a feature they talked about during Cataclysm's build-up, where you could unlock heroic bosses not by clearing the raid on normal, but after X many kills of that boss.

We see eye to eye on a lot, but I’d never support that – you’re making heroic guilds clear normal bosses multiple times for no reason whatsoever.

What I would support, however, is a system of hard gating, similar to Icecrown, but each wing unlocked its heroic bosses after the normal ones had been cleared. In other words, after defeating Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, the Gunship and Saurfang, those four bosses would be unlocked on heroic.

People don’t like gates, necessarily, but this would still achieve a number of things. It would dramatically cut down on the ridiculous time requirement during the first few weeks of progression and spread it out, it would mean normal guilds could feel like they’re progressing at a far better rate, and intermediate guilds would be better equipped for the later instance with a couple of heroic drops. Naturally, it would also allow the progression race to remain more interesting for a longer time, by also bringing in guilds who could push hard for a week or so but who can’t commit to the ridiculous hours put in by the world first guys.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 03:02 PM ----------

If Blizzard created a Bronze, Silver, Gold tiers of raiding, I don't see how even new raidiers would be very confused. You start at Bronze, then go Silver and then go Gold. Or call it L1, L2, L3. Start at L1 and progress up. The only confusing part is if they tried to give it fancy names so people don't get their feelings hurt. "I'm triple black Diamond raider" Bob is "Gold premiere elite raider" that would be confusing.

Progressing through an instance twice is bad enough. Three times would be approaching lunacy.

[Dvaldin]

I enjoyed that post, particularly the comment that LFR was born out of a necessity that only cropped up in Cataclysm; not prior.


And I’ve answered time and time again – the number of guilds clearing normal modes is crashing, which means the content is too hard. Maybe it’s not too hard for you, maybe it’s not too hard for me. But for new/casual raiders, it’s too hard. A few posts above this one, I highlighted how I think the raiding scene should step up in difficulty to allow new players to develop the necessary skills for harder raids. I’m not suggesting the most difficult content be nerfed (that’s taking it away from who it was designed for), I’m only suggesting that those settings below that are adjusted to make a legitimate learning curve.

At the moment, the facts stipulate that it’s just not happening.

I do want to touch on this aspect of ‘difficulty’, though.

I’m going to ask you a question (extended to everyone who reads this and says normal Throne of Thunder is easy); when did you start playing World of Warcraft?

I’m willing to bet, in the VAST majority of cases, you’ve been playing for at least two years. You’ve had a period to get to grips with playing your class well, even by accident you may have spent some time on forums, and you’ve probably done a spot of raiding that’s helped to develop the ol’ muscle memory.

Take yourself back to when you started this game.

Imagine you got to the login screen, picked a character, levelled it up to 90, then geared up in heroic dungeons.

Now ask yourself how you’d have done on the Stone Guard, and if it’s really easier than previous entry-tier bosses.

You don’t have to be honest with me on the Internet. But I’m confident that absolutely nobody, whose first taste of raiding was that boss, would have found it easy. I’m confident because I know a lot of people who started this game recently, and who aren’t young, stupid or physically impaired, who found it an absolute nightmare.

Compare it to the first raid boss of vanilla which, let’s say for argument’s sake, was Magmadar.
Compare it to Attumen the Huntsman.
Compare it to Anub’rekhan or Patchwerk.

Then we come to Cataclysm and Mists where new players are hit with the Stone Guard, Halfus Wyrmbreaker, Magmaw or the Omnotron Defence Council.

Are you HONESTLY arguing that the difficulty is the same?

Honestly?

You can say it’s just a case of picking up a few mobs, interrupting a few spells, casting a few heals and doing a bit of coordination. Heroic Ragnaros can be broken down like that, as can heroic Lei Shen. But you’re also asking new tanks to pick up two mobs on either side of Horridon, you’re asking new deepsers to pick up targets amongst a sea of mobs, and you’re asking healers to be as conservative with their mana as required before outgearing an encounter.

You’re also asking them to show enough mastery of the most convoluted rotations the game has yet seen, on top of the most difficult entry level raiding content. Hell, to play a DPS class even close to properly you’re thinking about maintenance buffs, specific debuffs, priority queues, DoT components and best use of cooldowns. Funnily enough, that’s not even considering the DPS basics of GCD maximising, high uptimes or cooldown stacking.

Please, stop asking people what’s so hard about Horridon. Ask yourself if you, when you took your first steps into raiding, were capable of all that.

If you’re honest, the answer is a resounding “no”.



WotLK was faceroll you say? Please, link your main character. I’d just like to check that your Sartharion 3D, Observed, Call of the Grand Crusade and Light of Dawn achievements are all in date. A warning; if they’re not, that means the game was too hard for you.


As previously hinted, building a learning curve will have benefits for the top guilds because new players will develop rather than simply being spoonfed everything to normal raiding, and then quitting because they get absolutely smashed.

NOBODY is arguing that heroic raiding should be made easier. Hell, make it harder.

What we want is everything below it to be properly staggered.

Stop this “crying for nerfs” argument.

It’s a straw man.

I find this post extremely offensive because it is very logical and appears in a forum on mmo-champion which is not known for its 'vast majority' of logical posts.

[Mad_Murdock]

Progressing through an instance twice is bad enough. Three times would be approaching lunacy.

The difference here is Bronze mode wouldn't be required to start normals. Bronze mode in my mind would be LFR +20% or Normal mode - 30%. Would share loot\loockout with LFR, maybe offer some 516 and maybe a 5-10% chance at a 522.

The demographic we're aiming at here is the 10 mans friends and family guilds who aren't going to kick their brother\sister out for under performing and it keeps it's more intimate setting by not lumping those people in with 15 strangers. I believe that is the niche group everyone here is looking at, it's certainly the group Ion talked about in his interview.

[Dvaldin]

The difference here is Bronze mode wouldn't be required to start normals. Bronze mode in my mind would be LFR +20% or Normal mode - 30%. Would share loot\loockout with LFR, maybe offer some 516 and maybe a 5-10% chance at a 522.

The demographic we're aiming at here is the 10 mans friends and family guilds who aren't going to kick their brother\sister out for under performing and it keeps it's more intimate setting by not lumping those people in with 15 strangers. I believe that is the niche group everyone here is looking at, it's certainly the group Ion talked about in his interview.

Of course, the counter-argument is that - even though normals could be started without having to complete the Bronze model, groups would still feel the need to complete it to get the gear to make the Silver model easier.

I agree with your concept though and believe it would be beneficial, but I think that the Bronze iLvl should be the same as LFR while chances of getting a loot drop in Bronze are increased from what they are in LFR. Perhaps the two should share a lockout also, but I'm not totally sure of that.

[Pua]

Of course, the counter-argument is that - even though normals could be started without having to complete the Bronze model, groups would still feel the need to complete it to get the gear to make the Silver model easier.

That's a more accurate way of putting what I meant. As soon as a "brick wall" is reached, suddenly people feel shoved into content they don't necessarily want to run.

[pimpeddakota]

Wish I could add an option to your choices... Blizzard IMO is dealing with it by bringing back the upgrade your gear vendor. I'm sorry if you can't down a single boss with all your gear upgraded maybe you shouldn't be doing normal raiding... You need to learn more. Also blizzard has put normal raid gear on EASILY farmable boss in the open world to help you with getting better gear.

Them attempting to Nerf Normal will only lead to them Nerfing Heroic because the gap between Normal and Heroic will grow.... see the slippery slope... People can see the content because of LFR so just leave it at that.

[Osmeric]

Them attempting to Nerf Normal will only lead to them Nerfing Heroic because the gap between Normal and Heroic will grow.... see the slippery slope... People can see the content because of LFR so just leave it at that.

If only it WERE a slippery slope! Then they wouldn't have reverted to harder content in Cataclysm, with such disastrous results for the game.

[Deleted]

Wish I could add an option to your choices... Blizzard IMO is dealing with it by bringing back the upgrade your gear vendor. I'm sorry if you can't down a single boss with all your gear upgraded maybe you shouldn't be doing normal raiding... You need to learn more.

Yes, this is exactly the position so many are in. And they say "so I have to learn more or the game isn't for me? K bye." thus resulting in decline of subs, making blizzard worrying, making players even more worrying, making threads like this more common and active. So you see, your post is about the past. What now?

[ItachiZaku]

The difficulty levels are already there. Nothing to change.

[Ninotchka]

The important thing to note is that it's a good thing to have another place to go when you run into a brick wall, so you don't get all angry with the game because the only thing you have to do is smash yourself into that wall repeatedly.

That was the saving grace of Cata raids for our casual raids - if you were stuck on Ascendant Council you could go hit Chimaeron, if you were stuck on Alysrazor you could go hit Bethtilac. Dragon Soul had only one fork, but it was early in the raid after a gimme boss. The only fork we've seen so far in Mists was that you could go hit Heart of Fear if you got stuck on Elegon, but if you couldn't down Elegon you were likely to get stopped at Garalon.

The only place you're currently rewarded with the luxury of choice is in heroics. Once you unlock heroics you can choose to try a boss in heroic mode or skip him for potentially easier bosses later in the dungeon.

People like to have choices. It gives you something to argue about besides others' personal failings.

Adding an optional easy mode to the current normal/hard binary choice would increase the ways lower end guilds could enjoy the game.

Easy mode should not be any more rewarding, itemwise, than LFR. I can see it being a lot more rewarding sanity-wise.

[pimpeddakota]

Yes, this is exactly the position so many are in. And they say "so I have to learn more or the game isn't for me? K bye." thus resulting in decline of subs, making blizzard worrying, making players even more worrying, making threads like this more common and active. So you see, your post is about the past. What now?

so your point is to make the game easier so the so called "real gamers" beat the newest patch in 1 month get fully geared in 2 months and then unsub until next patch... blizzard still looses money that way.

Blizzard gives players many avenues to get gear the SAME ilvl the content the player wants to run drops... Then you upgrade such said gear and make it superior to the content that the player cant beat and you expect blizzard to nerf that content? THAT IS JUST SAD.

If anything blizzard will just bring back the 5% nerf a week to the content not retune every single fight for the failures

[Leare315]

Wrath style 10 mans. I think it was a great leap of faith to offer 10 man raiders the exact same content as 25 man raiders, but it essentially made raiding(pre-LFR) kind of do or die. 10 mans coming back would be the middle ground. between lfr and normal 25's, and their hardmodes can make up for the lost difficulty, with more elite options or something(in both versions).

[pimpeddakota]

Easy mode should not be any more rewarding, itemwise, than LFR.

Easy mode IS LFR..if your guild hits a brick wall on normal just have the RL que the whole raid into LFR...