View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
757. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
Page 27 of 87 FirstFirst ...
17
25
26
27
28
29
37
77
... LastLast
  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    lfr last night for example.....2 players sitting outside the area for lei she in terrace.....i call them out during the encounter...their response "why dont you pay attention to the fight" lol...needless to say they never saw sha...
    It is as if being and lazy and bad is a badge of coolness for them.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    my limited experience with bad players? you have got to be kidding me LMFAO. you have no idea what i have done in this game. i have worked with more players on the lower spectrum of skill than i care to even explain. ive been doing this same format since TBC. NONSTOP!! in icc i ran 2 25 man raids and 2 10 man raids in 1 week based on that SAME format. dont even try to pretend you know my experience in training people. it's trivial for the amount of time it takes for people to look shit up to get better. they wont do that but yet expect blizzard to take the time to rearrange content for them? how fair is that in all honesty. ya they pay for the game....so do I....so thus i play the game i pay for how it is intended to be played and never complain...EVER. I do this because i highly enjoy the game. if people dont enjoy what they are doing then quit. if all 8.3 million subscribers quit due to difficulty then oh well id rather not play then have easy as shit content.

    i started doing 5 mans in tbc...then ventured into raiding and got laughed at numerous times. i learned how to get better and made it happen so that i could do the part of the game that appealed to me.
    Point is, you do not know every player in World of warcraft. I don't either. So neither of use can claim that bad players are X and do Y. As such, you can't make generalisations like that. So what I am doing is keeping an open mind. Right now, there is simply no good way of teaching new players raiding basics. Easier content for them to progress on(so, not LFR) is a good solution to that, in my opinion. I at least can't see how it could hurt the game or affect you in a negative way.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post
    Point is, you do not know every player in World of warcraft. I don't either. So neither of use can claim that bad players are X and do Y. As such, you can't make generalisations like that. So what I am doing is keeping an open mind. Right now, there is simply no good way of teaching new players raiding basics. Easier content for them to progress on(so, not LFR) is a good solution to that, in my opinion. I at least can't see how it could hurt the game or affect you in a negative way.
    Because they do not get any better at the game. They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?

    These threads exist because of nerfs. Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post

    Bob doesn't want to dedicate any more time to the game than he is. What he wants is chilling out on vent with internet buddies and kill internet dragons. Now, killing internet dragons requires him to spend more time on the game or suffer through LFR and still be unsatisfied. That doesn't mean that Bob is a bad person, he just treats the game less seriously than Normal and Heroic raiders. Generalising that the bad players are assholes brings little to the discussion and is simply not true. I know plenty of truly nice people who are just not very good. Some even do try to optimize their throughput but they aren't situationally aware enough to not die on mechanics and such. I'd like for them to have an Easy mode/LFR+/LFR Heroic/whatever the name you want to call it, so they can progress through the content at the same time as everyone else, but with lesser loot.
    The game isn't titled World of Bobcraft. I'm not going to have a debate over a magical yet horrible player with a heart of gold.

    I have nerve damage in both my hands. I can't move my fingers at all. All I can move are my wrists. My DPS is average for heroics and I can do every mechanic which doesn't require simultaneous keyboard and mouse control which is rare on encounters. I can only do one or the other at a time. You know, I can't even think a specific one I couldn't do as I sit here. One had something to do with freeing people but I can't remember what it was. If a guy who plays with only two index fingers overlapping his thumbs and who uses both hands to manipulate the mouse does things like Heroic Rag when it was current content then Bob can get his act together and do normal mode.
    Last edited by Talzar; 2013-05-23 at 10:02 PM.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    A) Go back to the Wrath of the Lich King raid difficulty model, 10man is easier and drops inferior loot to 25m. They may or may not be seperate lockouts.
    If they do this, and I'm not saying I support it, They'd better give us separate lockouts again. I raid both 10m (12/12n) and 25m (5/12n) and if I HAVE to raid 25 man to get my BIS gear, I'd better be able to raid with my main in both raids

  6. #526
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,861
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Because they do not get any better at the game.

    Correct.
    They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?
    Wrong. The content gets nerfed because they will never get any better.

    These threads exist because of nerfs.
    The GAME exists because of nerfs.
    Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.
    Grats. How why don't you just see the problem as the tuning up of the raids rather than the nerfs? if people are happy with 30%, wtf is blizzard doing not giving it to them?
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  7. #527
    for the record and no i am not joking in the slightest. i had a raider that had no hands. once again i am at joking AT ALL. she raided with us through all of cata and did heroic ds pre-nerf. and was an enh shammy. she was born that way as well it wasnt from an accident. where there is a will to get better there is a way. so i am with talzar completely on this one.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Correct.


    Wrong. The content gets nerfed because they will never get any better.



    The GAME exists because of nerfs.


    Grats. How why don't you just see the problem as the tuning up of the raids rather than the nerfs? if people are happy with 30%, wtf is blizzard doing not giving it to them?
    Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.

  9. #529
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,861
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.
    They are going to be bad anyway. So what's the point of getting all Po Faced and sitting there with a corn cob up your bum denying them some fun?
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    They are going to be bad anyway. So what's the point of getting all Po Faced and sitting there with a corn cob up your bum denying them some fun?
    They can raid old content like people who work low paying jobs. You dont want to get better and be lazy, then go to the bottom of the ladder. Rewarding idiots for being a idiot isnt progression but giving them the illusion. Sounds like a welfare candidate.

  11. #531
    denying them fun? they can raid lfr....that was made for them. if they cant make the jump from there they simply arent trying. I want to play football, but i cant perform like nfl players so i dont get put onto a professional team. how dare they deny my fun. oh ya flag football is in leagues city wide for people like me....maybe i should pout and throw a fit because i have to play the baddie version of football because im not good enough....same logic

  12. #532
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    5,556
    Nerf 10man.

    Why? Because the smaller format is more appealing to the beer league kind of player.

    Leave 25m as is, normals are pretty well tuned.

    Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.
    But an accurate one. WoW got popular because it was massively more forgiving than anything else back then.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Wizard- (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  13. #533
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,861
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    They can raid old content like people who work low paying jobs.
    Fail. Most low paying jobs are more work than higher paying ones. Whyat gets rewarded in an economy is rarity of skill, not effort expended.
    You dont want to get better and be lazy, then go to the bottom of the ladder. Rewarding idiots for being a idiot isnt progression but giving them the illusion. Sounds like a welfare candidate.
    Why in jumping fuck are you trying to be all moralistic about a game!

    People pay for fun. They find organised but not amazingly difficult raids fun, you want blizzard to not provide their customers with the fun they are paying for because apprently you have the morals of an 18th century methodist priest who sucks lemons through barbed wire or some shit. Madness.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  14. #534
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    5,556
    Fail. Most low paying jobs are more work than higher paying ones. Whyat gets rewarded in an economy is rarity of skill, not effort expended.
    Not entirely correct. What's rewarded is the time it takes to get that rare skill.
    And I don't think that an R&D engineers job is easier than the fab workers job.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Wizard- (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  15. #535
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Tampa Bay, Florida
    Posts
    4,678
    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    and another thing shahad....why should players be able to clear content at the same pace as others if they arent as good and dont have the same time commitment. that seems pretty messed up to me. you put in more time to clear stuff faster than other people. thats the point! i guess they should hand our first place to all racers in nascar too regardless of how good of a driver they are lol. he is only capable of driving at 60 mph but he deserves to be enshrined with those capable of going 200....give me a break
    I don't recall anyone saying CLEAR. There's a HUGE difference between having say 5-6 bosses that you can reasonably kill and then work on the harder bosses and wanting normal mode to be so easy that you can clear it in 2 hours.

    I don't want piss easy normal mode that can be cleared in hours. I don't mind progression, bute I hate WALLS. Right now for a majority of guilds, including mine (although to be fair I retired as a serious raider and I'm basically a casual friend who fills a spot, I'm not a "core raider" anymore) that wall is Horridon, the second boss, and for many guilds (including a former guild of mine at the start) at the start of the expansion that wall was Stone Guard, the first boss of what was supposed to be the "entry level" raid. My friends get burned out wiping on Horridon because its, simply put, too early a boss to be such a big wall. People get dejected, people don't want to log in because they don't want to wipe for hours on the second boss of the raid, and then end up having to give up in defeat or go back to T14 or be content with piss easy LFR.

    If the later bosses were the harder ones, the walls, there wouldn't be as big an issue. Us "filthy casuals" aren't asking to be able to clear the raid in a month, what we (or rather I personally, and I'm guessing the general opinion) is an actual difficulty curve so we can clear Bosses 1-5 fairly quickly and get them on farm, and then its oh crap Ji-kun (to pick one at random here) is one tough mother, let's get the other bosses down and do some progress on it. Instead it's more like "Okay we've spent the whole week wiping on the 2nd boss, fuck this crap" and people get dejected and don't want to bother anymore.

    Do you see the difference?
    NOBLESHIELD
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Twitch Stream | Wayniac#1291


  16. #536
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,861
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Not entirely correct. What's rewarded is the time it takes to get that rare skill.
    Time doesn't mean anything - all that matters is rarity of skill. If that rarity gets handed out in a genetic lottery (see playboy models, atheletes, intellectual geniuses) then the economy doesn't care.
    And I don't think that an R&D engineers job is easier than the fab workers job.
    Sure it is. R&D guys don't have to stop work at 45 because their lower back is fucked, and they get to live another decade or two due to the lower demands of their work.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Because they do not get any better at the game. They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?

    These threads exist because of nerfs. Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.
    They would without a doubt get better at the game. I'm not talking about Normal -30% and while likely overgearing it here, I'm talking about Normal mode that requires less raid dps. Same mechanics. They'll learn situational awareness, which is a much more important skill than pulling the mad deeps. Roations and stat priorities can be taught easily to anyone who is willing to learn, but developing raiding skills? That takes practice. Which is exactly what Entry mode would bring. Once they've cleared that for a few tiers in a row, they'll naturally gravitate to Normal mode because it won't be so intimidating and they'll be confident in their ability to execute the fight properly.

  18. #538
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Arkon-III
    Posts
    5,556
    Do you see the difference?
    I didn't get what the problem was with Stone Guard and I don't get what the problem is with Horridon.
    Both of them are already easy and have been nerfed on top of that.

    Seriously, if you can't kill it you're just not really playing your class like you should.

    Sure it is. R&D guys don't have to stop work at 45 because their lower back is fucked, and they get to live another decade or two due to the lower demands of their work.
    Yeah instead they quit the lab because of burn out syndrome. Just because you don't work physically doesn't mean your work is less stressful or easier.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Wizard- (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  19. #539
    i see a 6000 guild difference between jinrokh and horridon for kills.....out of 26,000+....that to me is not an insanely high wall as is being portrayed...there is 12,000 guild difference between horridon kills and lei shen......so i mean in all honesty for me it comes down to those groups being able to adjust and figure out what is going wrong.....you know....what raiders do....i mean they are raiding which requires them to do what raiding dictates lol...

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 04:26 PM ----------

    oh and 3 guilds that were having issues on horridon and they can speak up if they want to be known downed horridon off my very simple explanation of what was needed to be done on a "are guilds breaking up because tot is too hard" thread the week i posted it. they sent me a message to say thank you.....thus going back to the point i was saying about raid leadership factoring into a huge role.
    Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-05-23 at 10:30 PM.

  20. #540
    Also, I'd like to point out that if the Devs think there's a gap, with all the data they have that we don't, it's a little silly to argue against it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •