View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #681
    Haven't raided since Cata, but here's my opinion.

    Back in Vanilla/TBC, raid content needed to be "hard" because that's all there was for us. With the introduction of "Heroic" mode, the need for normal mode to be challenging ceased to exist. People who want "Challenge" can get it in Heroic raid content, people who just want to casually raid with a pre-made group (guild/friends) can raid normal modes, and those who just want to raid on their terms, and not be forced to talk to anyone (aka me these days) have LFR.

    What's always annoyed me (more so when I raiding then now) is you get these mouth breathers coming onto the forums and having a big cry that "WOW's too easy". Meanwhile, only Top 100 guilds have actually cleared all the content, and they're still in normal mode "remembering back in the day" when it would take you several weeks to down a new boss. Newsflash, get out of normal modes if you're "too skilled for WOW" and actually play the content that was designed to make WOW "Not easy".

    Bit of a rant, but the fact is, the only people who want Normal modes to be challenging are special snowflakes who can't do Heroic content and want to feel special about normal raiding. There is no reason for Normal mode to be so challenging that your 'average' guild can't clear it with minimal effort at a certain ilvl, or "advanced" guilds clearing it with previous Tier gear.

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Haven't raided since Cata, but here's my opinion.

    Back in Vanilla/TBC, raid content needed to be "hard" because that's all there was for us. With the introduction of "Heroic" mode, the need for normal mode to be challenging ceased to exist. People who want "Challenge" can get it in Heroic raid content, people who just want to casually raid with a pre-made group (guild/friends) can raid normal modes, and those who just want to raid on their terms, and not be forced to talk to anyone (aka me these days) have LFR.

    What's always annoyed me (more so when I raiding then now) is you get these mouth breathers coming onto the forums and having a big cry that "WOW's too easy". Meanwhile, only Top 100 guilds have actually cleared all the content, and they're still in normal mode "remembering back in the day" when it would take you several weeks to down a new boss. Newsflash, get out of normal modes if you're "too skilled for WOW" and actually play the content that was designed to make WOW "Not easy".

    Bit of a rant, but the fact is, the only people who want Normal modes to be challenging are special snowflakes who can't do Heroic content and want to feel special about normal raiding. There is no reason for Normal mode to be so challenging that your 'average' guild can't clear it with minimal effort at a certain ilvl, or "advanced" guilds clearing it with previous Tier gear.
    Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).

  3. #683
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).
    Erm that's what he said.

    And then added given that's the case there is no reason for normal mode to be so tricky....

    Everyone who gives a toss about difficulty is doing heroics. having normal modes where 75% of people who try them fail is pointless. lol
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  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).
    of course, there's no possible way that players may have improved in the 4-5 years since TBC...... right?

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).
    Ummm... exactly my point?

    All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Ummm... exactly my point?

    All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.
    Oh, I don't know. I can't be in the ONLY guild that's content with Normals, and the gaps between it both LFR and Heroic.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    Ummm... exactly my point?

    All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.
    No, what everyone is saying is "raids got harder", they didn't. They got EASIER. The problem is that back then raids were a PRIVILEGE, now everyone assumes it as a RIGHT. The reason that people are doing better is because now people who i wouldn't let into our heroic MgT group is trying to get into raid.
    And there is no reason to suddenly nerf raids to accommodate for that.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    No, what everyone is saying is "raids got harder", they didn't. They got EASIER. The problem is that back then raids were a PRIVILEGE, now everyone assumes it as a RIGHT.
    Nah, that's the wrong way to look at it.

    Back then, people were willing to keep playing if they were excluded. Now, not so much.

    It's not a matter of rights. It's a matter of raw consumer power.
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  9. #689
    This thread is about "how does a company deal with business with given numbers?" Numbers (just to demo. - fiction numbers): t7 100000 raiders mass subs mass growth. t15 20000 raiders less subs heavy decline. SO! If you don't even have a WoW account what do you think would you do to get some money? YES! You would say "eh t7 was the better way!". "Easyroflfaceroll? Epics for Bob? Posers with 10 APM who callout everyone with less dropluck noob? That the fuck are you talking about? I don't even words like "epics" "faceroll" "dropluck" "MMORPG" BUT I can tell you this is the better way BECAUSE many more people are fucking paying money for the product."

    Nobody cares about skill! Nobody wants to know how you can do things! Nobody plays the game "because he can" people play it because they WANT and if so many more people wanted to play t7-t10 + t13 rather than t11-15-t13 then this is the first step as a business to analyze what you want to do for the future. And no! they will not care that people who actually play wow say about "possibilities" and all their strange obsessions with vanity and whatnot. They will look at the numbers, then start looking how the game was designed at that time and figure something out, many players in this thread did in like 5seconds: There is a big chance that difficulty actually is a variable that can manipulate sub numbers! DOING! GREAT! Boss we have it, no worries we will make the cow healthy again! There might be completely different reasons yes BUT it's actually the most valid point and if you are that blizzard dev "how would you deal with it?" to please that guy that has no clue about WoW but can fire you any time? Right! You might consider changing the difficulty! And now this thread on mmo-champion has some nice people already talking about it.

    So please stop this talk about l2p and what not. This isn't about feelings this is about what to do after realizing that more people play raids like t7-t10+t13 than raids like t14-15. And after concluding the difficulty is the main factor for it. Is it hard to believe that t7-Naxx was a better raid then the newer ones? YES! It hurts so much! I mean many of us play this game so long and we learned so much about it. It's impossible for us to understand how Bob actually is not unique with his absurd mindset and playstyle but one of many who even can make the big blizzard boss wave to his wow devs. The day has arrived brothers! We might end up puging hcs again soon!

    So I hope I have it covered. Now: What will the poor blizzard dev do to get bob and his friends back into the game? What would affect us and how would it effect us? How far do they try to push Bob into our realm? Will they even create another plane so that Bob does not just pop up in our group? What could it mean for Guilds?

    nerf normal mode (option 2): Oh no! This would have a big impact on everyone for... one week I guess... I would not mind giving up on normal mode, I can pug HCs (with pug I mean not people like bob and his huge family!!!!! I still doubt they exist!1111"). I don't think Bob who failed on actual normal modes will even dare to try hcs. If he does he will fail. So we simply have to set our lookout to hc achievements... not so big I guess. In the first weeks maybe bit of a problem but I don't think Bob who cannot do anything at the moment will rocketjump new content in the first week and then app to us, if so then well, we should complain after having 100 apps every week who get exchanged after just one try. Or we just bait them out with Ui-Screens, WoL logs and oh we already do that. Good thing Bob has no clue about these things! Our guild would not be effected since we don't allow family and friends into the guild. Guess in other guilds those people would dare do LFM in guildchat more... But well not my problem olol... noobs for inviting them in the first place!!111.

    Just to make a demo how this discussion with valid arguments could look like :/ Many of you guys really have to differ between how you feel about something and how to deal with some cause-effect stuff in terms of arguing about it
    Last edited by Hiram; 2013-05-25 at 09:57 PM.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    -snip-
    Yet a majority of the player base thinks that T8 was the best raid ever, and that was far harder than current raids. By that logic shouldnt we make raids harder?

    The raiding has been on a constant decline, however the biggest decline happened between T13 to T15. What happened here? Yes, the introduction of LFR. Would it not be quite logical to draw the conclusion that LFR is the reason for raid participation dropping rather than normal mode difficulty? People are spending time in LFR instead of looking for raiding teams, naturally lowering raiding participation.

    Also, subscribers have dropped. The raid participation will ofc drop as subscribers drop.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    No, what everyone is saying is "raids got harder", they didn't. They got EASIER. The problem is that back then raids were a PRIVILEGE, now everyone assumes it as a RIGHT. The reason that people are doing better is because now people who i wouldn't let into our heroic MgT group is trying to get into raid.
    And there is no reason to suddenly nerf raids to accommodate for that.
    Mate you're delusional. The only thing "harder" about Vanilla raids were the gear checks (in part due to terrible itemization) and the logistics of running a 40 man raid. But given you'd be carrying 10-15 of them anyway, (up until Naxx anyway) the logistics were pretty similar. TBC definitely brought a challenge, but you're living under a rock if you don't think raid bosses are more complex these days. Maybe not all of them sure, but plenty are. What's changed is the fact that today we have UI's to practically play the game for us combined with step by step youtube guides.

    As for raids being a "privilege" (in caps no less). Give me a break. The only thing I was "privelage" too back in those days was being a single man in his early 20's with a few part-time jobs so I could raid 7 nights a week. (Yes, we raided 7 nights a week, it was the only way to gear new raiders). Now, I'm so under pirvileged to be married with a daughter, 30 years old and an Airline Captain that I don't raid I should quit wow immediately.

    Seriously, as I said, the challenge is in heroics. If you're not doing heroics then don't complain about things being too easy, and if you are, then who cares how easy the rest of the game is?

    Most gamers don't play WOW for challenge, we play it to be entertained, just like we watch TV, read books and play other games (shocking i know). You want a real challenge? Try raising kids and paying a mortgage in today's economy.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2013-05-25 at 10:12 PM.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yet a majority of the player base thinks that T8 was the best raid ever, and that was far harder than current raids. By that logic shouldnt we make raids harder?
    I am saying content does not matter. If a simple room with 10 slimeblobs would produce higher numbers than ulduar-karazhan-tot and what not THEN slimebob raid is the better raid. You can ride ahead on a rotting horse or you can try to find another. With a sub number drop as big as this I do not believe blizzard can affort to just try to maintain their playerbase as it is. They will try to get old folks back and to get new ones into the game. Content just doesn't matter anymore in how to make a change. They will do a business move and business doesn't care for play opinions. It cares for program code and numbers. I tell you that in a abstract manner to make you quit thinking in terms of majority or quality... It just doesn't matter anymore. They have a problem and in a rational economy like ours they have not much possibilities how to take a problem like that on.

  13. #693
    You can probably guess which one I want (D) as the other 3 have very harmful side effects. A) makes all current hardcoreish 10mans angry and probably quit (I am one of them, i will quit if they choose A, i enjoy the difficulty currently). B) will just make it too easy again and will clear Dragonsoul in a week on normal, and C) made everything too easy too. D) I honestly can't see any negatives except it being cleared quickly but if it shares the same gated system as LFR it will be perfect. I can see myself running it a lot with alts instead of LFR because I just can't stand LFR :P

  14. #694
    And yet there is no reason to nerf normal mode. There's a lot of people who are raiding it and who it is appropriate difficulty.
    Create 10 man LFR so everyone who can't handle normal mode can raid as a group : Win-Win.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
    I am saying content does not matter. If a simple room with 10 slimeblobs would produce higher numbers than ulduar-karazhan-tot and what not THEN slimebob raid is the better raid. You can ride ahead on a rotting horse or you can try to find another. With a sub number drop as big as this I do not believe blizzard can affort to just try to maintain their playerbase as it is. They will try to get old folks back and to get new ones into the game. Content just doesn't matter anymore in how to make a change. They will do a business move and business doesn't care for play opinions. It cares for program code and numbers. I tell you that in a abstract manner to make you quit thinking in terms of majority or quality... It just doesn't matter anymore. They have a problem and in a rational economy like ours they have not much possibilities how to take a problem like that on.
    Though does boss kills = to success of a raid?

    Naxxramas for example allowed me to clear naxxramas on 6 characters, did that mean I enjoyed the raid? Did that mean that I consider the raid to be a success? Why is a raids success measured in the players ability to clear it?

    If 10000 people clear one raid with 5 characters, or if 20000 players is able to clear one raid 2 characters and the second raid was enjoyed by more players, which one 'succeeded' the most?

    If 20000 participate in a raid and enjoys is or 30000 people participate in a raid and do not enjoy it, which is the bigger success? By your logic ragefire chasm is the best dungeon ever made since it got the highest participation of all dungeons, and challenge modes are the worst 5 mans of all time.

    Do you see where the participation = success of content logic falls short? Sure, participation is a part, but looking blindly at it just tells you nothing. You need to understand the numbers, not only see them.

    As mentioned earlier aswell, WotLK was current content for longer than the other expansions making more guilds get a "clear" on the content on wowprogress.
    ICC was current content for a year, you cant compare that with something that was current content for 6 months.
    Same goes for naxx, everyone and their mother was running naxx even in T10. WoW players are achievement whores, and the T7 and T8 raids had insane amount of titles encouraging players to go back there. In wrath, the gear up process went through old raids and random heroics (though not so much as today). In cata and MoP the gear up process changed from running old raids to other stuff. Of course the raid participation drops.

    This is the problem with most threads on WoW forums. People refer to numbers as hard evidence, with 0 reflection over what does numbers actually means. Is there a reason why the numbers differ etc?

    Lets take a step back and look at this with some logic instead of looking at numbers with 0 thoughts behind.

    What do we know? Yes we know that raiding participation dropped through the years. Are there any reason for this?
    Well first off, subscribers dropped. There will of course be less participation with less players.
    WotLK was a longer expansion being out for 2 years.
    The raids in WotLK and Cata was also nerfed harder than MoP raids when the content went obsolete.
    WotLK old content was also nerfed by the unexpected gear inflation. blizzard stated this that the introduction of HMs / HC mode increased the gear inflation more than intended in WotLK.
    MoP is not over yet. The kills in previous content will continue to increase even in T16. As T7/T8/T9 did in T10 and T11/T12 in T13.
    WotLK raids had a ton of achievements and titles. Stuff like undying, the immortal, champion of ulduar, conqueror of ulduar, herald of the titans, tribute to insanity, tribute to dedicated insanity, tribute to immortality encouraged people to FARM old content and just in general do old content more. Cata and MoP lacks this except for the glory achievements. There was just much more incentive to do old raids in WotLK further inflating the content participation.
    WotLK had double lockouts. People could raid both 10 and 25 man. This led to more pugs which also increased raid participation.
    The WotLK raiding model with double raid lock out, two year expansion and insane gear inflation, a ton of achievements, titles, pets, mounts just increased raiding participation in general. That is impossible to deny. This had nothing to do with the actual raids, just how the expansion was designed in general.

    Now that we listed some basic explanations as to why the numbers could look like to look now, lets take up the big villain.
    How are people spending their time?

    In WotLK, you did not really have much to do. You could farm you achievements, level those alts, you had the ToC dailies. But once it came to gearing up your character, the only thing you could do outside of doing 1 daily heroic for the daily emblems, was running raids. You geared up through raids, the main source of Emblems (the counterpart to valor points for those that are new to the game) was from raids, not from daily heroics, dailies, whatever. So what you did when online was doing the occasional achievement/pet/mount hunt, the ToC dailies but mostly, you looked for raids. I spent most part of the WoW time looking for raids for all my 4 alts, clearing T7, T8, T9, T10 each week on multiple characters. That was what you did.
    Again. You raided. That was what you did in WotLK.

    Cata came along. How did you gear up new characters now? Yes, of course through raids, though we had something new aswell, step one, daily quest played a far bigger role. You had to grind dailies, grind dungeons for reputation. You got a lot of free gear through that, so that was the natural gear up process. You get exalted with the reps you needed. Firelands patch further stressed dailies, people should do dailies, it awarded great gear. Now you might say, well it is the same as ToC! No. The difference was that ToC was mostly cosmetical. Those items you could buy in ToC really do not count as they were so shit. Nobody bought them, ToC dailies was 99.99% cosmetical, so a lot of people skipped them. FL dailies was participated by much more players. Same goes for Tol Barad. It was basically mandatory farm in T11 as it had some BiS items for almost every class.

    So what happens? Players have to spend hours upon hours grinding up reputations, doing dailies? Do they magically play more hours? No, they just prioritise their time down. What this meant was that players took time away from raiding to do dailies, farm valor points etc since this was what you did with your free time. Your free time was no longer 100% raiding. They implemented 5 man HCs that awarded gear just sligthly worse than the previous raid tier. ZG/ZA gave 353 items, T11 normal was 359. The difference was that ZG/ZA also gave you reputation allowing you to grind the 4.3? dungeons gave 378 items. T12 normal was 378 aswell.

    Granted, it WotLK you had ToC5HC giving i219, the same as ulduar. The difference is that this was 1 instance. It was not enough, and you could not farm it in the same way you could farm 4.1/4.3 instances. The ICC instances was closer to what 4.1/4.3 was. Though still not 100% the same. 4.1/4.3 instances was still more farmable and more important than ICC instances was. In short.

    WotLK gear up process: Old raids complemented by heroics.
    Cata gear up process: dailies and heroics complemented by old raids. In T13 you also had LFR.

    Raids got the back seat in cata. Kinda obvious to understand here why the raiding participation was higher in WotLK.

    Now, lets move over to MoP. What happened in MoP? Mists of Farmdaria. Where to start? Dailies, dailies, dailies. LFR.
    Outside of farming the dailies, managing your farm for those 300+ stat food, getting the charms, you did not time to find raids. You spent your days doing a million dailies. When you actually got an alt up, you still barely had time for it between grinding on your main for raiding, raiding was no longer the main focus. So your alts geared up through dailies. You did LFR, bought valor items, did dailies, raids was very low priority. Valor and LFR gave you good enough gearing up and you needed to do dailies for coins, raiding was not really needed.

    So to repeat again.

    WotLK gear up process: Old raids complemented by heroics.
    WotLK time spent: Raiding > Old Content > HCs >Achievement farming ( a lot of which in old raids ) > Dailies > Leveling alts
    WotLK time spent on alts: Raiding > HCs > Other

    Cata gear up process: dailies and heroics complemented by old raids. In T13 you also had LFR.
    Cata time spent: Dailies > LFR (in T13) > HCs > Raiding > Leveling up alts > Old Content
    Cata time spent on alts: Dailies > LFR (in T13) > HCs > Raiding > Old Content

    MoP gear up process: LFR > HC scenario > Dailies > HCs complemented by Raids
    MoP time spent: LFR> HC scenario > Dailies > HCs > Raiding > Achievement farming > Leveling up alts
    MoP time spent on alts: LFR > HC scenario > Dailies > HCs > Raiding. (like you even had time for leveling on your alts)

    LFR, Dailies and Valor capping consumed so much time on just your main, who even had time for your alt? Old raids was no longer the optimal gear up process. Low incentive to do old content. Few titles, achievements etc. Gear up process not that effective in old raids. Emblems / Valor shifted from coming from raids to LFR/Dailies/dungeons. Grinding extra roll coins.

    So maybe now you understand? Lower playerbase, split raid lockouts, Longer expansion, more incentive for old content. The reason raiding declined have nothing to do with the ways raids are designed. It is about how the expansion is designed. Previously if you wanted to raid, you raided. If you want to raid now, you grind dailies and LFR. People are "forced" to spend time outside of raids to optimise their characters for raiding. This is the reason why raiding decreased.

    The first step would be to remove LFR, Make bonus rolls coins far easier accessable (done now in 5.3, so not issue anymore). Make dailies less mandatory. Make old raids drop more valor points making them the source for gearing up. Make something with the raid lockouts, more incentive for old raids. Make your characters less time consuming on 5 mans/dailies etc.

    See how far you can get with logical thinking over blindly looking at numbers.

    Blizzard choking free epics down the throats of people through LFR, valor points&coins (due to these coming from other sources than raiding), HC scenarios and so on is hurting raiding because people spend time not raiding to get ready for raiding.

    <captain obvious flies away>
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You can't imagien why people would rather avoid stuff they wiped on endlessly?


    Gear doesn't matter, there are still too many mechanics. You haven't understood why people are struggling, really, have you?


    The issue isn't gearing. it's mechanics.


    Compared to what? Spamming HC scenarios? Nope.


    You haven't got it, have you? The raids have too much going on. That doesn't get fixed by gear alone except at the chronically overgearing stage.

    Only thing you've been right about so far is the HC scenarios (the ones which make t14 irrelevent for toon progression.)
    Wow, people wipe endlessly to tier 14 with tier 15 LFR epics? lol, yes, I'm sure you will think I'm crazy, but man that's really a L2P issue at that point. It sounds like you are expecting a raid where bosses take 5 hits and drop dead, giving epic lewts in the process. And yes, you can still get epics such as rings and trinkets from tier 14 so there would likely still be upgrades for these folks. I'm trying to understand what's so insanely tough about the mechanics, perhaps you can explain a few?

    That being said, so you are pretty much expecting a raid that pretty much has none of the characteristics of a raid besides the fact that 10 people are in there, correct? That's pretty much the opposite of what raiding is, perhaps instead of asking for an easy mode - I think even you'd agree that heroic scenarios would be a better option here.
    Last edited by RickJamesLich; 2013-05-25 at 11:19 PM.

  17. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If we remove LFR there is no gap anymore.
    If you remove raids entirely there won't be a gap either, and removing LFR will mean that raids get less exposure and will end up not being worth making any more, hence no more raids.

    There is no "remove LFR" without "kill all raiding in a slow and painful way".

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The raiding has been on a constant decline, however the biggest decline happened between T13 to T15. What happened here? Yes, the introduction of LFR.
    The raiding population had crashed even before LFR got released (MMO-champ released info about Firelands exposure and it was approaching Naxx 1.0 levels), and was rushed in to try to make raids worth making again. Blizzard cite the difficulty of 5-mans to the loss of 2m subs, not LFR.
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  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If you remove raids entirely there won't be a gap either, and removing LFR will mean that raids get less exposure and will end up not being worth making any more, hence no more raids.

    There is no "remove LFR" without "kill all raiding in a slow and painful way".
    I wouldn't say so, LFR only came a year ago and Wow has had raids since the start. I do think LFR does kill the game on some level, some people play the game for a challenge and some literally play it to get easy epics, LFR fills that niche and a few others (such as for people that literally only have an hour or so a week to play). In the process, I think these people end up getting pretty bored though (hence threads like this one), when in reality, blizz should release quality content for even the most casual players instead of trying to lure them into raids that they likely won't end up enjoying much. Gear from challenge modes is a step in the right direction, heroic scenarios is even a better step.

  19. #699
    I hope people read Firefly's long post, it was a really good read with many good points and common sense.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    I hope people read Firefly's long post, it was a really good read with many good points and common sense.
    Sadly I believe we got to many donkeys in this thread for common sense to make any impression.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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