View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sadly I believe we got to many donkeys in this thread for common sense to make any impression.
    The concentrated enjoyment of a few doesn't make up for the lack of enjoyment of many.

    Or, another way. People can't have fun in raids they don't get to go to.

    Rest of your post was nonsense that told me you never played vanilla or TBC.
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  2. #702
    See Trollface, I was correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The concentrated enjoyment of a few doesn't make up for the lack of enjoyment of many.

    Or, another way. People can't have fun in raids they don't get to go to.

    Rest of your post was nonsense that told me you never played vanilla or TBC.
    Every single post you made tells me you never played vanilla, tbc or wrath.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    See Trollface, I was correct
    ...about precisely fuck all.

    Infracted; Don't spam. (Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-05-26 at 12:12 PM.
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  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    See Trollface, I was correct



    Every single post you made tells me you never played vanilla, tbc or wrath.
    Yah, I'm starting to wonder if some of the people saying the "easy mode is a good idea" even remember their own arguments. They are basically saying that LFR is easy and extremely boring, yet they want an extremely easy version of the raids on 10 man.... naturally you'd be thinking "well wouldn't that be boring as well?" Beyond that the other arguments are "I want a more social raid", these people don't realize you can just bring friends to your LFR or use vent if you really want to. There's no logical argument at this point really for the easy mode raids, this thread is just beating a dead horse.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    ...about precisely fuck all.
    I would like to know what part of my post was "nonsense" then. I came with reason, logical conclusions and gameplay experience of previous expansions to counterargument some of the statements in this thread. You seem to be unsure of how argumentation works or you are just acting the way you are acting right now because you understand you are beaten.

    If you believe my theories and arguments to be wrong. Come with your own logic that is superior to mine, disprove me. The burden is on you to show you are correct, not me. At the moment you are just acting like a child that lost an argument.

    So far all you have been doing is coming with the same statement over and over again. Yet when someone comes and questions your statement, to which you have 0 reasoning to back up and no real logic behind, with reasoning and logic. Your reply is either "No!" or you completely ignore it.

    Normal discussions go like.

    Argument -> Counterargument -> counterargument -> repeat until conclusion / agreement
    not
    Argument-> Counterargument -> No!

    The ball is in your park not mine. If you choose not to reply, and that means in form of argumentation about the subject, not personal bashing. I think it is safe to assume that you lost this argumentation as your argument falls short in both logic and reasoning.

    If you choose to reply with manner and reasoning, which I hope you do, I will be happy to reply back to you. Until then, I will not reply to any more of your non-sense posts.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #706
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Yah, I'm starting to wonder if some of the people saying the "easy mode is a good idea" even remember their own arguments. They are basically saying that LFR is easy and extremely boring, yet they want an extremely easy version of the raids on 10 man.... naturally you'd be thinking "well wouldn't that be boring as well?" Beyond that the other arguments are "I want a more social raid", these people don't realize you can just bring friends to your LFR or use vent if you really want to. There's no logical argument at this point really for the easy mode raids, this thread is just beating a dead horse.
    >.<

    At no point am I am outling what I would personally prefer in the game.

    if wow was designed for me, it would be a month long /played time before you got to max level, followed by magisters terrace level 5 mans and 10 man raids a la ICC. 25 mans would all be shelved and pvp would be removed.

    but....

    This isn't a debate on "what MMO forum poster x wants for his own amusement." It's a debate about what should happen based on the data we have available + blizzard comments around the OP. For fucks sake.

    How the fuck you kill anything in wow when you apparently can't even fucking read I have no idea.
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  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think some on here don't want to look at data objectively because it means they have to change their tiny little minds.

    lol
    How is my mind tiny when you cant put enough brain cells together to clear normal mode? The clearing we did months ago. Yes, you heard it from lol dk first, Wow is hard.

  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    How is my mind tiny when you cant put enough brain cells together to clear normal mode? The clearing we did months ago. Yes, you heard it from lol dk first, Wow is hard.
    Ok your mind is tiny and yours is even smaller. Grats, we are both idiots.

    How about you actually talk about the OP now, instead of trying on this tedious strawman ad hominem bullshit that gets us nowhere?
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  9. #709
    Oh the irony. You are the one ignoring everyone actually talking about the OP, and whoever disagrees with you, since you have no argumentation abilities, you instead attempt to attack them as persons or just completely ignore what they say.

    You have not made one well written post that made any sense in the last three pages. ( not claiming you did before that either, didnt bother to check )

    Lets make a compilation of the quality of your posts on the last few pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Why shouldn't they?
    RL doesn't work that way, for a start, and wow is not a morality play either.
    People pay for fun. Why deny them it?
    0 reasoning. Replying to a question with another question and no response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think you want this to be about me because you can't answer any of the points.
    Just ironic since you cant respond to anyone elses points.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    9/12 is very good, much much better than average. It's not my fault you can't look at data objectively. lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Looking at where the raiding population is at, it is very good. It's not world beating but it's much better than average.

    Again, not my fault you can't look at data objectively!

    Check the data. it proves me right, prioves you wrong. Get over it.
    Again 0 logic. Denying other peoples logic with saying "check the data", when in reality you do not even understand the data yourself. You are acting like a pigeon playing chess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I think some on here don't want to look at data objectively because it means they have to change their tiny little minds.

    lol
    Continue with 0 reasoning or 0 logic behind your claims. Saying someone else have a "tiny mind" when you cant even form a simple sentence summarizing your own opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Never said it was. It's simply a fact that my guild does better than average.

    If you like it, don't like it, care, don't care - it doesn't matter. That's what facts are like. They don't care about you, they just are.
    More

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Didn't say that, either.
    All I said was that my guild is doing better than average.
    And it is. Suck it up. [
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It isn't.
    0 arguments that holds any water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Didn't say any of this either, and 9to be plain) not bothered either.

    Still better than average. Facts remain.
    What facts? You used the same repetetive 'fact' over and over again that got disproved by others, which you of course ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    My argument doesn't have anything to do with me or my guild.
    It remains. It would remain if I stopped playing.
    now, if you are quite done trying to dismiss the argument via ad hominem, please thrill me with your intelligence and acumen on the actual debate at hand.
    if you can, of course.
    Look in a mirror.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I dunno I'm just looking at the numbers. i.e. raid participation has dropped off a cliff.
    You look at the numbers without understanding them or using them properly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, the bit where I said I wasn't arsed. 9/12 is better than average. You want to redefine average using all kinds of stuff that means 9/12 isn't average any longer.

    I don't care, didn't do that and it's not relevent anyway. 9/12 is better than average. It just is. Why it is better than average i didn't go itno and don't care about.

    now, back to the actual debate at hand - how about you engage in it rather than wander off up your own bottom?

    Currently (according to data and blizzard) there is a gap between LFR and normal mode. What do you propose to fix it?
    Again dismissing other peoples reasoning with 0 reasoning of your own.

    + Are you suprised that normal mode is harder than LFR? Also we others have done several propositions how to "fix" the problem (LFR).

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The concentrated enjoyment of a few doesn't make up for the lack of enjoyment of many.
    Or, another way. People can't have fun in raids they don't get to go to.
    Rest of your post was nonsense that told me you never played vanilla or TBC.
    Not sure how you can measure peoples enjoyments, and people are obviously getting to do raids, since people are doing raids. Again, a huge post counter argumenting pretty much your entire standpoint, to which you reply "nonsense" instead of argumenting for your own cause, since you are obviously incapable of doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    ...about precisely fuck all.
    Another well written and well formulated post by you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    How the fuck you kill anything in wow when you apparently can't even fucking read I have no idea.
    Dunno, made me smile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Ok your mind is tiny and yours is even smaller. Grats, we are both idiots.

    How about you actually talk about the OP now, instead of trying on this tedious strawman ad hominem bullshit that gets us nowhere?
    Great post!


    As said, the ball is in your ballpark in the discussion actually related to the OP. You have contributed nothing to it in a couple of pages. Maybe time to do so or leave the thread?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    As said, the ball is in your ballpark in the discussion actually related to the OP. You have contributed nothing to it in a couple of pages. Maybe time to do so or leave the thread?
    You are correct, I have been distracted by fools. Admittedly they tried to get around what i was saying by attacking me rather than what I was saying, but it was less than smart to even notice they were doing it. Never raise it again.

    back to the issue at hand - LFR (which will carry on) and normals (which will carry on) have a gap between them.

    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?

    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
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  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are correct, I have been distracted by fools. Admittedly they tried to get around what i was saying by attacking me rather than what I was saying, but it was less than smart to even notice they were doing it. Never raise it again.

    back to the issue at hand - LFR (which will carry on) and normals (which will carry on) have a gap between them.

    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?

    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    End of thread right here.

    Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

    How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?
    An easy mode isn't the option, as that would end up just being too easy as well. As I already said, heroic scenarios, tier 14 raids, challenge modes, and northern barrens are 4 options - if people want to cross their arms and say "oh well, I don't want to do any of them, so I'm just going to sit here and be miserable", well, it's not blizzard's fault at that point, now is it?

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are correct, I have been distracted by fools. Admittedly they tried to get around what i was saying by attacking me rather than what I was saying, but it was less than smart to even notice they were doing it. Never raise it again.

    back to the issue at hand - LFR (which will carry on) and normals (which will carry on) have a gap between them.

    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?

    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
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  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by kos1085 View Post
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
    The issue with that is that the playerbase doesn't keep trying in the absence of reward, they simply quit.

    If the playerbase did just keep on perservering in the face of difficulty, then yes there would only need be 1 setting. They don't act that way, and so making things more tricky won't work to entertain.
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  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    An easy mode isn't the option, as that would end up just being too easy as well. As I already said, heroic scenarios, tier 14 raids, challenge modes, and northern barrens are 4 options - if people want to cross their arms and say "oh well, I don't want to do any of them, so I'm just going to sit here and be miserable", well, it's not blizzard's fault at that point, now is it?
    Yes it is. They fail to provide appropriate options with appropriate difficulty. Even if you say it isn't and you plug your ears and stand up and down and scream lalalalla and ignore it the players still leave. If they want to salvage any of their business changes are coming. End of story.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kos1085 View Post
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
    They will not. Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. Not sure what the difficulty is in seeing this?

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Yes it is. They fail to provide appropriate options with appropriate difficulty. Even if you say it isn't and you plug your ears and stand up and down and scream lalalalla and ignore it the players still leave. If they want to salvage any of their business changes are coming. End of story.
    How do they fail to provide appropriate options? 4 different options are available if you don't feel like doing LFR but can't yet handle normal mode with appropriate rewards in between. And that's not plugging my ears, go into the game and check it out for yourself.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The issue with that is that the playerbase doesn't keep trying in the absence of reward, they simply quit.

    If the playerbase did just keep on perservering in the face of difficulty, then yes there would only need be 1 setting. They don't act that way, and so making things more tricky won't work to entertain.
    There was only 1 difficulty in TBC and the game was way better then than is it now.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    How do they fail to provide appropriate options? 4 different options are available if you don't feel like doing LFR but can't yet handle normal mode with appropriate rewards in between. And that's not plugging my ears, go into the game and check it out for yourself.
    None of them are fill the need that ICC 10 mans (and I would argue 25 mans did because they were piss easy to) did. So they have failed to provide an appropriate option. Now the developers have acknowledged this. The statistics suggests this. You are plugging your ears if you deny this. Check it our for yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    There was only 1 difficulty in TBC and the game was way better then than is it now.
    You don't want to return them to one raid difficulty. If they do it will be piss easy. I don't necessarily like having a million difficulties either but if your interest is in challenging content don't ask them to return to one difficulty. You won't like the outcome.

    Again this discussion is so academic at this point. The developers have acknowledged a need and still we have people here protesting NO NO NO NO NO NO as if it's even a relevant argument anymore. It's kind of amusing. It's almost like a caveman arguing with an engineer that the wheel isn't needed. You people are on the wrong side of history. I knew that even after the developers came to this conclusion (as slow as they were to do that) their would be obstinate members of the community who would be in denial anyway. It never ends.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-05-26 at 01:37 AM.

  19. #719
    I would argue that LK10 is way harder than Lei Shen10. Lei shen was a joke and went down within 10 tries.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    Wall of text incoming, but it is a worthwhile read.

    How do we know that we are not at that point already? First! I will make a correction.
    "50% of those who enter them before half the tier has passed can complete them before the tier is over."
    Expecting people to clear normals if they start normals 2 weeks before 5.4 is not really reasonable.

    So, are we at that point already? Any guild that started raiding when 5.2 was released or in the first few weeks will atleast be 3/12 by now. Presuming they raid more than 1 hour per week. If your guild is below 3/12 at current stage, you are either
    1. Not raiding
    2. Recently started

    So lets check how many guilds are 3/12. 18064 would be the number.
    7530 guilds are 12/12.

    That would mean at current stage, 42% of the guilds who cleared 3/12 are at 12/12. It is fairly safe to assume that as more people get meta gems, item upgrades that number will rise. So I would argue that we already are at that point that 50% of the guilds that actually enter ToT clear it on normal. Further, a large majority of the guilds that goes in with the mindset "Hey, lets clear this!" have cleared it. If you started running ToT in 5.2 with the intention to fully clear it on normal, you should probably be on atleast 7/12 right now, probably more, but lets be nice and say 7/12.
    11232 guilds are there. That means 67% of the guilds that are 7/12 have already cleared it. So that means that the average guild that actually raid with the intention of clearing the content on normal has already cleared it.

    So I think your 50% limit is already there, no change needs to be done on normal mode. The issue is not there.



    The issue I believe come from LFR, dailies, valor points and coins. People are drawn away from raids, to do other stuff than raiding to optimise their characters for raiding. I actually just leveled up an alt. So people are spending less time raiding, which equals to less raid participation and people being worse at raiding because they raid less, also tributing to the "lowered success rate in raids".

    Dailies needs to be non-mandatory. Making 300+ stat food come from the farm, bad idea. Forcing people to do that to optimise for raids.
    Forcing you to do 45 dailies per week in 5.0 to get coins, horrible idea. Now it is more "okay" when it only costs 50 lesser charms and you can get them more easily. I had to do 125 dailes per day in the first week just to keep coins on my main and my alts. Of course I also had to do even more than that since had to do like 40 dailies per day on my main to farm reputation with all the factions.

    Look at the wrath daily quest model. Dailies gave pets, tabards, mounts, gold, crafting reciepes. Only one daily chain gave anyting actually worthwhile, and that was sons of hodir with the shoulder enchant. Yet getting that was very easy. Getting the head enchant for your role was also very easy. No dailies were mandatory or gave significant raid upgrades. You did not need to gear up through dailies. That is how it should be. Dailies should be optional, not forced.

    I think 5.3 fixed this issue however, as said making coins cost only 50 lesser charms and making them more available is a good move.
    Dailies nerfed themselves, in the way that you do not need to farm exalted with klaxxi / lotus for the 489 items anymore. You could but it is not worth the time. So any people got the crafts so you do not need to farm shado pan rep to be able to do weapon enchants etc. So dailies are not 'needed' anymore simply because the new tier is here.

    Valor points. Valor points should come from raiding, not from other sources. Again, bringing people out from raids to do stuff like LFR/HC scenarios/CMs/HCs to get valor cap as it is "needed". They buffed the valor drop from raids, so that is good. Still not in a good place. In my opinion there should be a cap of 500 valor points obtainable from non-raid sources. I.e. LFR, HCs, HC scenarios, Dailies, rare spawns etc should cap out at 500 VP per week. Raise the VP cap to 1500. Make raid bosses drop something like 100-150 VP each making the cap easy through raiding, previous content giving half of that per boss. You should get raiding gear from raiding, therefor encouraging people to actually raid to improve themselves. Making people do dailies or HC scenarios for gear upgrades is counterproductive, as it is time consuming, making them raid less making them worse at actual raiding since they practice it less.

    I also believe that they should have upped justice points to be able to purches 476 gear to help the catch up. Maybe even 483 gear.

    Another problem is the legendary quest. I think the catch up is way to slow. A newly dinged character is basically 2 months away from being competetive.
    Imo the entire legendary quest is a piece of garbage. Once the quest get a new chain, they should nerf the quest into the ground.
    5.0 quest chain could easily be 2-3 sigils instead of 10.
    5.1 quest chain should be 1000 VP max, even 3000 is too much.
    5.2 and 5.3 quest chains are fine but should be nerfed to maybe 5 secrets and 4 rune stones when 5.4 is released. The current state of the quest is just waaaay to long if you start from 5.0

    Now we hit the big problem. LFR. You say "The bridge between LFR and Normals are to big. How do we fix this?". I say, you are trying to build a bridge between something that should not even exist. You assume to raid progression of LFR -> T15N -> T15H. The problem here is, lets be fair, LFR is not even raiding. You are trying to make people jump from an afk fest of epic boredom, a loot pinata, to actual raiding. That just does not work. People should go from easier raiding to raiding. Not from Nothing to raiding. So what I believe is that the raid progression path should be T14 -> T14H/T15N -> T15H.

    I believe LFR should be removed. 'BLASPHEMY!' you might say. Hear me out.

    What would this accomplish? In current state, a newly dinged character runs through 9 LFRs. MSV 2/2, HoF 2/2, ToES, ToT 4/4. When you get geared you still have to run atleast the ToT LFRs, probably some of the ToES/HoF ones aswell for those missing pieces. A newdly dinged character easily spends 10 hours on LFR including queue times unless he is a healer. That is 10 hours he could instead have spent on raiding, improving his gameplay. Instead we are 'forcing', even though nobody is forced, people take the path of least resistance, which in gearing up is LFR, it is free epics for no effort. So we have players wasting a majority of their time not doing anything productive, just getting bored, since seriously, 95% of the population do not enjoy LFR. For most its a forced grind that they hate. So we put them into an environment that they do not like, where they do not have to perform, mistakes does not hurt you since bosses are just pinatas. You learn nothing about actual raiding in LFR. So we are teaching the next raiding generation, do nothing and expect free loot from doing nothing. This is where the big problem is. What message LFR sends new players.

    What if we instead removed LFR, with the addition of the proposed changes to daily quests and valor points. We would now have players with a ton of free time on their hand. But how should they gear up? Yes, through T14 raids. A change like this would make people actually RAID to get into raiding. You see how this is logical? So people would get to spend time to do the T14 raids instead.

    In addition to that I believe that the 10% nerf on T14 raids should be increased to 20-25% to make it even easier. Elder Charms for the T14 raids should be easier to get to make the gearing even easier. Gear upgrades for the old content (T14) gear should only cost say 75-150 VP. This would make people gear up for T15 faster, so that MSV gear becomes 497/510 and HoF/ToES 504/517. This would really smooth gearing into ToT while still keeping people raiding to prepare for raiding.
    What benefits would this have?

    1. The servers community would start growing again. People would make a lot more pugs for T14 raids. Players would have to start interracting with eachother making this more into a MMO again instead of a CBTGFEW24RPYWNETTG, ( 'click-button-to-get-free-epics-with-24-random-people-you-will-never-even-talk-to-game' ) This would be very healthy for wows player base.

    2. Guild recruitment would be easier again with the community being bigger.

    3. T14 raids would be a perfect training ground to raiding. Not the bullshit that LFR is. It would be very easy, but not a complete faceroll. People would still need to learn the basics and improve themselves. It would be very healthy for the new players. With the lowered vp upgrade cost for T14 items that I suggested earlier, this would be the perfect stepping stone into ToT.

    4. Suddenly, the gap between LFR and ToT is gone. You go T14N->T14H->T15N->T15H, which would be a very smooth transition if as I mentioned earlier VP upgrades for T14 items would cost maybe 75vp per upgrade. And people go from easy raiding to normal raiding to heroic raiding. Without adding an "easy mode" as been suggested. Instead of making developers having to balance a T15 LFR, T15 easy, T15 normal and T15 heroic, they just simply have to do a T15 normal and T15 heroic with T14N taking the place of T15 LFR, T14H the place of T15 easy mode. Developers would get more time to produce content which we would all enjoy without making 4 raid sizes.

    5. Suddenly we got more happy raiders. The raiding player base is suddenly not forced to do content they do not want to do (LFR, Dailies, farming valor, farming coins) to get into content they want to play (raiding content). Raiders raid to raid. Not grind to raid. We also get more experienced and better raiders since they get to spend more time raiding. Practice makes perfect.
    Add that to all the previous benefits I mentioned, and I can honestly say, sorry, but I see no reason why LFR should stay.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    End of thread right here.

    Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

    How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.
    Just a question to you. Why do you raid? Not meaning to offend or anything. Just ask yourself, why do you raid?

    Personally, I raid for challenges. If raiding becomes easy, it loses its point. Nothing beats the feeling of wiping on a boss for 2 weeks and finally getting the kills. The best memories I have from WoW is from just those occasions, wiping and wiping, raid after raid until finally getting a kill. If everyone fell down in a few pulls, where is the enjoyment in raiding?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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