View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #761
    To back up my previous claim I made a small crude excel file, simply checking how many % of the guilds that killed boss N killed boss N+1.
    The results was interesting.

    What these colmuns show is:

    Column 1: How many guilds have said progress
    Column 2: How many guilds that are wiping on a boss in comparison to people that killed it. (in %)
    Column 3: Which boss/progress level

    Example:

    1200 --- Boss 1
    1000 20 Boss 2
    The 20 means that 20% of the amount of guilds that killed boss 2 is wiping on boss 2.



    What we can clearly see is that the biggest "gap" is in heroics. Especially early / late heroics. The gap in normal is barely non existant. The only reason that Jin'Rokh N and the first 3 normal bosses is ranked so high is because of all the ghost guilds and pugs and on raiding guilds inflating the results. In reality they should be lower if you would seed out the inactive guilds / guild migrations / pugs / non raiding guilds.

    Quite undeniable that the normal to heroic gap is larger than the gap entering normals.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Yes, there is always a gap. What the devs are telling us is that a significant (and presumably sizable) chunk of the player population, the casual guilds who won't kick their friends, fell right into this gap. In other words, the raid design has malfunctioned in a way that the devs are highlighting, presumably because they find the problem serious enough that they feel they need to fix it.
    As I showed in this post. The "hardest" normal boss (durumu) had a smaller 'gap' than the easiest heroic boss progression (going from 8/13 to 9/13).
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #762
    96 guilds are 13/13 HC !
    This game is too easy.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    As I showed in this post. The "hardest" normal boss (durumu) had a smaller 'gap' than the easiest heroic boss progression (going from 8/13 to 9/13).
    But your numbers tell us absolutely nothing about the gap between LFR and normal. Your numbers aren't wrong; they're just irrelevant.

    /shrug
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But your numbers tell us absolutely nothing about the gap between LFR and normal. Your numbers aren't wrong; they're just irrelevant.

    /shrug
    Nice attempt to avoid data countering your argument.

    Step 1. Anyone can kill Jin'Rokh, simple as that. If you wanted to kill Jin'rokh, even if you are a "LFR raider", you could kill Jin'Rokh. Even Jin'Rokh, who has extremely inflated numbers because of previous mentioned reasons, only barely beats a few of the heroic kills, just the early heroics have a gap almost twice as big.

    Going from LFR raider to normal raider is not about going 1/12 normal and calling it the day. It is atleast about getting into early normals say 3-4/12.
    Which that stats clearly shows us, have a smaller gap than heroic raiding. Even considering that Council and Tortos and Megaera are also heavily affected by ghost guild / pug inflation, though not to the same extent as Horridon of course, they are still not even remotely close to Horridon

    Sorry, but you must either be in blind denial or... something I would prefer to avoid saying, not to understand this.

    Even while putting "make-up" on the gap in the early normal modes by not considering the inflation, it is still a lot smaller than the gap in early heroics. Which is about 100-400% bigger. Taking the obvious inflation of early normals in consideration, would probably make the early heroic gap about 400-600% bigger.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-26 at 05:47 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Nice attempt to avoid data countering your argument.
    What data? Your post had zero data on LFR participation or difficulty. The data you presented say nothing about the gap between LFR and normal mode ToT.

    Also, you ignore the possibility that large numbers of erstwhile normal mode raiding guilds gave up in T14, and never even made it to Jin'Rokh (on my server, more than half the guilds with T14 N progression are MIA in T15). The absolute number of guilds that have downed that boss is troublingly low. The LFR/N gap existed in T14 as well. Indeed, since T15 isn't over, the devs are probably talking about T14 when they talk about the gap.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Also, you ignore the possibility that large numbers of erstwhile normal mode raiding guilds gave up in T14, and never even made it to Jin'Rokh (on my server, more than half the guilds with T14 N progression are MIA in T15).
    Those guilds probably left their dying servers and transferred to Illidan or Stormrage so they can find better recruits.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Those guilds probably left their dying servers and transferred to Illidan or Stormrage so they can find better recruits.
    At least on my server, that doesn't look like what happened. Also, a mediocre guild struggling in normal mode is not going to be able to attract many recruits on those top servers.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #768
    Guilds break up, always been happening. Not like guilds said "Dang those trolls in new raid looks scary. Better not even attempt them".

    So what you are saying is the there is some magical gap between LFR and Jin'Rokh and right now there are 15600 guilds wiping on Jin'Rokh normal since there is such a huge gap between LFR and normal. Yes, 15600 guilds needs to currently be progressing and wiping on jin'rokh normal to make that gap equal to that of early heroic raiding.

    So currently there are, according to you, atleast 150% more guilds progress wiping on Jin'Rokh normal than Horridon normal. Seems completely legit.

    Jin'Rokh is the only fight that we do not have full data on as we can not check how many guilds is progressing on it.
    If we presume that the LFR raiders actually get Jin'Rokh down. All data after thats supports that the gap after Jin'Rokh is almost non-existant.
    So, this magical gap between LFR and Normal needs to be on Jin'Rokh then. Seeing as I have not seen that many (read as: any) threads about "Help my guild on Jin'Rokh normal", and for sure not 150% more threads about that compared to Horridon normal threads, which pop up all the time.

    I think it is safe to call bullshit. Or you have some other source showing the public outcry of the overtuning of Jin'Rokh normal forcing over ten thousand LFR guilds trying to get into normal mode raiding falling into the giant ravine that is created by the Gap of the Magical Unicorn (which the gap between LFR and Normal shall hence be referred as)

    One word for you: Denial.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So what you are saying is the there is some magical gap between LFR and Jin'Rokh and right now there are 15600 guilds wiping on Jin'Rokh normal since there is such a huge gap between LFR and normal. Yes, 15600 guilds needs to currently be progressing and wiping on jin'rokh normal to make that gap equal to that of early heroic raiding.
    Or, the guilds have simply given up. I imagine many of the guilds that failed to make adequate progress in T14 decided to throw in the towel. This appears to be the case among many such guilds on my server. Not all, or even most, of them have broken up, btw.

    I also don't see many new guilds forming for T15. I'm sure there are a few, but it looks mostly like guilds that were successful in T14.

    I think it is safe to call bullshit.
    I think you need to hone your reasoning abilities before you start applying that epithet to others. The argument you are attempting to construct does not hold together.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #770
    LFR is solo raiding. There is currently no mode of raiding available to scrub players who want to raid and progress as a team. And it doesn't have to be easy enough for 10 mouth breathers to coast through, there are limits, however 8 average skilled raiders should be able to carry 1-2 mouth-breathers or clickers or keyboard turners, etc and still be able to down bosses.

    There needs to be a mode of raiding that a team can join up for each week where they can eventually down bosses where they aren't told "the only way you can progress is by excluding your friends and only raiding with highly skilled strangers".

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    People pay for fun. Why deny them it?
    who said raids are ultimate fun in WoW, and everyone should be able to clear them? and what about people who actually like challange, why you deny them fun by nerfing their content?

    Listen, I'm bad at PvP so I don't do it, why someone who is not able to put 2 and 2 together in PvE, can't stick to something at his skill level and find fun in other activities in the game?

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think you need to hone your reasoning abilities before you start applying that epithet to others. The argument you are attempting to construct does not hold together.
    Likewise. We are approaching summer. Your argument is completely irrelevant. You cant connect guilds quitting in T14 with T15 normal modes. You gotta understand how terrible reasoning that is. "My guild stopped raiding in T14 because T15 looked hard on PTR".
    Wows subs is declining. Guilds fall apart. Both normal mode and heroic mode guilds fall apart. Not like this is news. Some guilds may have thrown in the tower because they thought they had bad progress in T14, but that is an issue with T14 balancing in that case, not T15. That is completely irrelevant here. But I guess this is your last line of defense since you have no other resort, one last breath, nice to see

    Even so, if those guilds fell apart for whatever reason, may it be that they did not like their progress, some people did not see eye to eye anymore, simply got bored of wow, not enough time due to IRL life, work, family or because the guild masters french girlfriend found chat logs of the GM and an officer and did not approve of their man-on-man fantasy action and decieded to post those chat logs for the entire guild to see and break up with him on ventrilo because of his affair with another guy in the guild. Whatever the reason may be. If the raiders of the guild that breaks up want to raid, they will continue to raid, in another guild.

    So you see why your reasoning is completely irrelevant? Even if guilds disband, not like their raiders characters gets deleted. Maybe some of them stopped playing entirely, but those that want to raid will continue to raid.

    Also that is still all entirely irrelevant to this. What we have data to support is that every single fight in ToT normal have a lower gap coming in from previous encounters than going from normals into early heroics. The only boss we do not have data from is Jin'Rokh as we can simply not set a data point for it.
    I have never heard anyone complain about Jin'Rokh being hard. Prove me wrong, but that is not something I have heard. Even the dreaded Horridon that we have seen so much complaints about on forums, a new thread every day almost, is not even remotely close to the heroic modes.
    So tell me, how can Jin'Rokh be worse?

    I mean, I do not have any hard data to support Jin'Rokh being easier. But neither do you. I have data to support the other 24 encounters in ToT and they spec towards my favor. Considering that there are no complaints on forums about Jin'rokhs overtuning, I think it is safe to assume that Jin'Rokh is no different from the other 24 encounters. Or do you care to disagree?
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    who said raids are ultimate fun in WoW, and everyone should be able to clear them? and what about people who actually like challange, why you deny them fun by nerfing their content?

    Listen, I'm bad at PvP so I don't do it, why someone who is not able to put 2 and 2 together in PvE, can't stick to something at his skill level and find fun in other activities in the game?
    In random BGs you are still playing as a team against other players in a coordinated manner. With few exceptions, it's still going to be about team play.

    LFR is not the equivalent of that on the PVE side. LFR is people rolling through their rotations for 15 minutes at a time with little to no need to worry about what anyone is doing.

    Even with the fact that you are playing with mostly strangers, there's still a sense of community to random BGs. That doesn't exist in LFR. PVE end game currently has no draw for the average player that builds community.

    Lots of scrubs were in guilds and actively raided in Vanilla. Lots of scrubs were in guilds and actively raided in BC. We don't even have to mention how many scrubs raided Wrath. T11 brought the first tier that scrubs were not welcome to. MoP continues that trend because Blizzard is under the false impression that LFR is raiding and builds community.

  14. #774
    You and I have very different views of random BGs. Atleast solo queueing.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #775
    The problem is simple and the solution is even simpler. People don't bother to effectively learn how to play their class, don't bother to look up a boss fight on YouTube and don't look at the game as a challenge. Oddly enough, I am not a PVE'er, however; I do see evidence of all of these points in PVP and there is no doubt in my mind they trickle into PVE as well. Blizzard's brilliant solution up and until now has been make the classes easier and homogenous. From 71 to 32 to 6 talents and people still can't play their class.

    Blizzard does nothing to instruct players on how to play their class. For example: warriors - the starting zones give you a quest to teach you charge somewhere around lvl 3-5 and that's it. After that, you're a pro, no other instruction of passive abilities, mastery, rotation, cds, nothing. Learn charge and you're good to go, next up : TOT LFR.
    However, the community does a great job at instructing people, but I honestly don't think people care about playing well. They simply want to have fun and there is nothing wrong with that. So, I suggest Blizzard finds a way of making it fun to learn how to use each classes key abilities. Put the process in a series of quests that in the end payoff with a special Class mount and a decent amount of gold.

    So, what you do is incorporate learning the abilities of your class in a series of quests while you level up, make them fun, engaging and rewarding.

    Separate the lockouts of 10m and 25m raids and up the ante on the difficulty and the rewards for 25m.

    Put LFR on a one patch lag and let the mechanism serve as a catch up tool as well as learning tool. Do the same they did with Conquest and up the Valor cap for a certain percentage for each week you failed to cap. This way ppl can spam run LFR with the purpose of catching up to be able to raid and perhaps learn something in the process.

    Make 10M and 25M heroic modes - super hard so the hard core players can have their challenge and glory. Create and promote a system that shows guilds with the most Heroic boss kills for both modes.

    This will bring back a challenge as well as sense of pride in the game.

  16. #776
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    When you pug with strangers, losing is a nuisance that doesn't add anything to the game.

    When you progress with friends, being unable to lose undermines the whole point.


    Fundamental difference will never be able to be correctly addressed unless you make some way for players to see wiping as something other than just a nuisance.
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You and I have very different views of random BGs. Atleast solo queueing.
    Solo queueing can be rough some times, though I've often solo queued and found some strangers that I hadn't met before and likely won't meet again who teamed up with me for the duration of the battleground hitting our targets, etc. I've never had that happen in LFR

    I'll concede your point that queuing for BGs with 1 or more friends is far better than solo queuing. I can queue with ANY of my friends, regardless of their skill or gear level and still have fun. Even if it's watching them get squashed, because they have no gear, then joking about that afterwards, though it's even more fun when me and a couple friends can run around rolling some of the players on the other side. Again, that doesn't happen in LFR. I've joined LFRs with all my friends in vent, and we don't say one word to each other. We all just mindlessly roll through our rotations for boss after boss. Random BGs have us talking and coordinating constantly.

    The point is, almost every BG I've ever been in is filled with a percentage of skilled/gear players carrying a percentage of bad/non-geared players. When you try that in PVE, you can't beat bosses. When you note you can't beat the boss, the answer is "drop the bad/non-geared players, they aren't supposed to be in here".

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    The problem is simple and the solution is even simpler. People don't bother to effectively learn how to play their class, don't bother to look up a boss fight on YouTube and don't look at the game as a challenge. Oddly enough, I am not a PVE'er, however; I do see evidence of all of these points in PVP and there is no doubt in my mind they trickle into PVE as well. Blizzard's brilliant solution up and until now has been make the classes easier and homogenous. From 71 to 32 to 6 talents and people still can't play their class.

    Blizzard does nothing to instruct players on how to play their class. For example: warriors - the starting zones give you a quest to teach you charge somewhere around lvl 3-5 and that's it. After that, you're a pro, no other instruction of passive abilities, mastery, rotation, cds, nothing. Learn charge and you're good to go, next up : TOT LFR.
    However, the community does a great job at instructing people, but I honestly don't think people care about playing well. They simply want to have fun and there is nothing wrong with that. So, I suggest Blizzard finds a way of making it fun to learn how to use each classes key abilities. Put the process in a series of quests that in the end payoff with a special Class mount and a decent amount of gold.

    So, what you do is incorporate learning the abilities of your class in a series of quests while you level up, make them fun, engaging and rewarding.

    Separate the lockouts of 10m and 25m raids and up the ante on the difficulty and the rewards for 25m.

    Put LFR on a one patch lag and let the mechanism serve as a catch up tool as well as learning tool. Do the same they did with Conquest and up the Valor cap for a certain percentage for each week you failed to cap. This way ppl can spam run LFR with the purpose of catching up to be able to raid and perhaps learn something in the process.

    Make 10M and 25M heroic modes - super hard so the hard core players can have their challenge and glory. Create and promote a system that shows guilds with the most Heroic boss kills for both modes.

    This will bring back a challenge as well as sense of pride in the game.
    A sense of pride downing nerfed content dumbed down to a lol mode? You put heroics super hard then when people clear normal modes because they barely require a brain cell to clear, people will cry that heroics are too hard and now they have nothing to do.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    End of thread right here.

    Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

    How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.
    WHo makes most guides and is sponsored? Who is put on stage at blizzcon? Who is the end game designed for? What part of stop being bad dont people get? Servers are pugging Tot, full clear in one night with people who hardly know what they are doing yet you drool so hard you cant clear it so it needs to be nerfed?

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    A sense of pride downing nerfed content dumbed down to a lol mode? You put heroics super hard then when people clear normal modes because they barely require a brain cell to clear, people will cry that heroics are too hard and now they have nothing to do.
    I haven't seen that. They normally just call it until the next patch comes out. The players that aren't good enough to attempt heroic modes aren't clearing normals all that quickly.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Solo queueing can be rough some times, though I've often solo queued and found some strangers that I hadn't met before and likely won't meet again who teamed up with me for the duration of the battleground hitting our targets, etc. I've never had that happen in LFR

    I'll concede your point that queuing for BGs with 1 or more friends is far better than solo queuing. I can queue with ANY of my friends, regardless of their skill or gear level and still have fun. Even if it's watching them get squashed, because they have no gear, then joking about that afterwards, though it's even more fun when me and a couple friends can run around rolling some of the players on the other side. Again, that doesn't happen in LFR. I've joined LFRs with all my friends in vent, and we don't say one word to each other. We all just mindlessly roll through our rotations for boss after boss. Random BGs have us talking and coordinating constantly.

    The point is, almost every BG I've ever been in is filled with a percentage of skilled/gear players carrying a percentage of bad/non-geared players. When you try that in PVE, you can't beat bosses. When you note you can't beat the boss, the answer is "drop the bad/non-geared players, they aren't supposed to be in here".
    Getting rolled in a BG is losing also so it is the same as not being able to defeat a boss because the players are bad or undergeared. If you look at guilds logs, you will see people at the top of the charts and people on the bottom that arent good or bad, decent enough to fill out the raid. So that is also the same as skilled/gear players carrying others.

    The problem arises when most of the raid is bad that it is impossible to carry all of them so people wipe. Not learning nor getting better, which defeats the idea of raiding. A challenge where you learn and get better downing new bosses but instead people now just whine its too hard.

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