View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #41
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    If anything, loot should be removed from LFR because it was created so more people could see the content. Loot isn't a necessity to see the content. .

    blizzard has said atleast 3 times this xpac that lfr is the catch up mecanic for those that started late in the xpac so that wont happen. also if blizzard did make lfr/normal/hc share a lock out you would never clear a section also queues would be atleast treble what they are atm.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 01:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    The problem with LFR is the seperate loot lockout.
    It should not be simply an easy additional route for gear and a raiding experience, but an option for whom normal is not.
    blizzard also said atleast 2 times that lfr is there to get you gear that just wont drop on normal
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2013-05-17 at 12:32 AM.

  2. #42
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    While I voted "10M easier than 25M with lower iLevel" I think all the ideas in the poll are pretty bad. If you ask me there are two legitimate ways to handle it:

    1) In the future, normal mode should be toned down a bit (more forgiving, less perfect execution mechanics), roughly around the difficulty of normal Dragon Soul without the nerfs, or Firelands/T11 with the nerfs (I can't remember the exact numbers but I think Firelands was 20% and T11 was 10%? In any event I found them both, Firelands especially, to be much more manageable with the nerfs than without)

    2) Keep normal mode as it is, but Blizzard should stagger the difficulty of bosses so the first few have simpler mechanics (maybe just one real mechanic to watch out for, or a simple add fight, or a tank and spank DPS check, you get the picture) and then the difficulty ramps up the further you get towards the end, with easy "filler" bosses thrown in periodically so it's not all an upward curve.

    1 will appease the regular people and piss off the hardcore people (personally though I don't care about them, but not going into that here). 2 I think can appease everyone:

    Average/casual/scrub guilds can down a couple of bosses and get them on farm status while bashing their heads against the harder bosses, but won't have their morale just demolished wiping on the first or second boss of the raid and feeling like they're getting nowhere. Good raiders have less time spent on the easier bosses but still have the challenging later bosses, and easier farm bosses means it's easier to gear for the later ones. Elite raiders won't experience a difference since they usually blow through all the normal modes in short order anyways.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-05-17 at 12:33 AM.
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  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Desaris's Avatar
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    increase the difficulty of LFR up to be about the same to normal as normal is to heroic

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  4. #44
    The Lightbringer thunderdragon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    While I voted "10M easier than 25M with lower iLevel" I think all the ideas in the poll are pretty bad. If you ask me there are two legitimate ways to handle it:

    1) In the future, normal mode should be toned down a bit (more forgiving, less perfect execution mechanics), roughly around the difficulty of normal Dragon Soul without the nerfs, or Firelands/T11 with the nerfs (I can't remember the exact numbers but I think Firelands was 20% and T11 was 10%? In any event I found them both, Firelands especially, to be much more manageable with the nerfs than without).
    firelands was a straight 25% on 1st 4 and 15% on baleroc, domo and raggy t14 hc didnt get a nerf normal got the same nerf as 1st 4 in FL

  5. #45
    I agree that they should add another difficulty level. I like the difficulty of the current encounters but as plenty have said there are certain players who would definitely make use of an easier mode. There is plenty of people who obviously aren't up to the average player for whatever reason, or even people who have a 10m team full of family friends and they want to play whatever class they want and they're group make up is horrible. Why tell these people to either get better or go home, doesn't achieve anything. Adding a difficulty in between LFR and normal wont affect anyone except for the people who would actually enjoy it. It would simply be a toned down version of Normal mode, same mechanics just not as punishing.

    And it wouldn't be called easy mode. I would think make it go as follows, LFR - Normal - Elite - Heroic, where elite is the current normal mode. At the beginning of a tier you can start on either normal or elite with heroic being reserved for completion of elite mode, same as current. There really is no reason not to do this, it would be easy to balance since it's just a toned down version of normal and if we use current gear as a example the new gear would be 512 ilvl.

  6. #46
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexz View Post
    Sure you can, you are also completely ignoring the fact that you don't have to learn and of the mechanics because its a "alt" group, so you can simply sit there and focus on learning how to play your horribly geared alts.
    The first few bosses have an incredibly generous learning curve. Did it make it easier that we already knew it? Yes. But we were all at like a 480 ilvl, which is WELL below what you're supposed to start at according to Blizzard and well below what someone could achieve with just LFR gear. If people are having difficulty progressing through ToT normal in appropriate gear, that is a player issue and not one that Blizzard should bend over backwards trying to solve.

  7. #47
    We don't need to nerf normal. On top of that people need to stop counting on and relying on nerfs to get them past content.
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  8. #48
    Make LFR a selectable difficulty for both 10 and 25 man formats so that guilds can clear them without having to deal with the "community" that blizzard currently makes you run LFR with.
    In addition, normals modes should be toned down about 10-15% from where they are at now. If people really want a challenge then they can go do heroic modes.
    Another solution for normals is to add a smaller determination buff (2% per wipe, max 10 stacks) to normal modes, but make the time spent per stack like 5 minutes of active boss time and lock out achievement progress for groups that have stacks of the buff.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by zenyatta View Post
    The question asked how WE would like it handled. My answer is that I see no gap, and see no reason to "fix" anything. You can get almost everything from VP and SPA rep, +Nalak and Oon loot. There's nothing to bridge. If you can't progress as it is now, you need to really go over your raid team/strategies with a fine toothed comb.
    Which isn't relevant if you and others would read the damn interview. BLIZZARD sees a gap in the sense that normal is harder than it was in previous xpacs. The perception is that you can't carry 1-2 people in the current tuning in 10s so people who want to raid in a group that they know either a) have to drop people who are their friends or b) not progress. LFR is not an solution since the requirement is for raiding with a known, chosen group of people. Sure, you can be all hardass and say "Get better or get out" but there are some raids that raid socially, more for fun than progression and who in the past could carry 1-2 people in 10 mans and still get ahead. Slowly, but they were fine with that. Now, in ToT, that's not really the case. Most of those people stop an Jinrokh. In HoF, they stopped at Garalon.

    Their point was that in Wrath they could tune 10s and 25 differently since they dropped different levels of loot. They can't do that now since both sizes drop the same ilevel of loot, so 10s are tuned to be the same relative difficulty as 25s (yes, I know... ).

    Now, IS normal harder than in the past? Honestly, I don't think so, but then we're not trying to carry anyone who's not good. Not to say we're all pro, but we're pretty good and no one is really being carried. When we tried to do that last reset because of a lack of people it failed. So I can see the problem. I just don't see a good solution.

    Actually, there IS a solution. Make a new, 10 man only difficulty that's easier than normal. Have it drop loot 0-6 ilevels above LFR and have it share a lockout with normals. So you can raid 10Easy OR 10Normal in a given reset. That lets people play with friends, get some gear and have fun. For those of us who'd rather have a challenge we have 10 man normals and of course, 10 man heroics and the two 25 man difficulties.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-05-17 at 01:07 AM.

  10. #50
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    I think if they put an NPC at the front of each raid who had a dialogue option "Would you like my help clearing this raid, I will increase your power and survivability slightly, but my influence will somewhat diminish the power of the rewards", and you got like 509s for "Assisted Normal" ToT, that would be a pretty reasonable proposal.

    It'd be kind of like the nerf npcs for ICC or DS, but not on by default and available at the beginning. Only the raid leader should be able to change it, of course. I also don't think you should be able to switch back and forth by boss, but maybe it would be for the better, for cases like 10m Horridon/Council which were kind of cockblocks compared to later bosses.

    Most mechanics in LFR are kind of trivialized, I wouldn't want to see that. The Tortos kick example someone gave is a pretty good one. I think you should still have to master that to get past him, but it would be fine if you could decide to go in there with your average raider at 500k hp instead of 430k hp. Mechanics would still kill you, but a little slower.

    For the most part though I agree with people saying that the progression path is there to kill Lei Shen; if people are hitting a wall, it's either they need to put in a bit more work gearing up (which is available, even if it requires going to the previous raid!), or they want LFR style non-mechanics, which I don't hear people asking for.

  11. #51
    I've read this whole thread and I havnt seen anything that really broaches the main problem... tone down the ramp up dificulty of the first 3 bosses of the tier... Horridon and Council are killing guilds with slightly less organisation/ skilled players... maybe blizzard got the boss order wrong?
    if guilds had 3 slightly easier bosses to farm gear from instead of brick walling on Horridon and Council.. none of these posts would even be here.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by brainwashed View Post
    I've read this whole thread and I havnt seen anything that really broaches the main problem... tone down the ramp up dificulty of the first 3 bosses of the tier... Horridon and Council are killing guilds with slightly less organisation/ skilled players... maybe blizzard got the boss order wrong?
    if guilds had 3 slightly easier bosses to farm gear from instead of brick walling on Horridon and Council.. none of these posts would even be here.
    True, but it's not just ToT. Some people got stuck on Elegon for a while and a lot didn't make it past Garalon ever.

    You're right in that doing the ramp up for the first 3-5 bosses in a long raid will certainly help, but at some point some raids will get blocked. I'd argue that if that happens late enough it's not an issue (say after the halfway mark), but...

  13. #53
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    I think what I would do--just to be different--is leave normal difficulty exactly where it is. After a certain number of wipes for the night, say....I dunno....somewhere between 3 and 5 on a boss...provide an optional switch to get something akin to the Determination buff that's in LFR.

    Not 5% though...say 2% and then increasing by 1-2% for every valid wipe thereafter. It wouldn't carry to the next boss or into the next time you raid. It would have to be enabled by clicking on it manually for every fight.

    Those that beat the raid without it being enabled get the achievement credit. If it's active when you get the boss down, gear drops but no achievement.

    That's how I'd fix normals. People could eventually get past bosses, get geared up on drops and then return later on to do the raid boss/raid without the buff or wouldn't wipe enough times to trigger it and receive their achievements.

    Last thing: For the wipe to count toward having the buff available or increased, you'd have to get the boss down to at least 50% or so and have the trash leading up to the boss done. That way you couldn't cheese the raid by wiping repeatedly just to get to the buff.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-05-17 at 02:17 AM.
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  14. #54
    Warchief Galbrei's Avatar
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    I personally "handle" the gap by skipping it. If Blizzard wants to make LFR and Normal mode more near each other in terms of difficulty I hope they do so my increasing the bar on LFR rather than lowering it on Normal.

  15. #55
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Different lockouts for 10 and 25 man raids so the more experienced raiders can raid with their less
    skilled friends and do pugs and such.

    And honestly, there isn't any reward from doing normal modes. You get all the same stuff but with
    higher item level which is completely pointless if you don't plan on progressing in the first place.

    Players will leap over the gap if the carrot is shiny enough.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderdragon2 View Post
    blizzard has said atleast 3 times this xpac that lfr is the catch up mecanic for those that started late in the xpac so that wont happen. also if blizzard did make lfr/normal/hc share a lock out you would never clear a section also queues would be atleast treble what they are atm.

    blizzard also said atleast 2 times that lfr is there to get you gear that just wont drop on normal
    If LFR is considered an easier and additional gearing route with lesser gear, then they have gone back on the very reason they normalised 10 and 25m raiding in the first place.
    I am not convinced that is what it was meant to be, nor should it be.
    They screwed up because LFR is a bit of everything and completely lost as to what it role it really should be playing.

    As a catch up it could have the same lockout as the others, and still remain valid for that.
    The problem is it can be in addition to normal or heroic, and that is exactly the same problem which saw smaller guilds penalised by the separate 10/25m formats.

    Put everything on the loot lockout format.
    Do not prevent them from raiding in another format, but simply deny them loot from the same boss in different formats.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-05-17 at 02:33 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Thirded on the "fine the way it is" option.
    Basically this. There's meant to be a gap. It's supposed to be "Raiding for Dummies" almost and to just give you an idea of what it's like to raid, if that.

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  18. #58
    The gap isn't really a problem, it's less than the gap between normal and heroic, really.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by wrathblade View Post
    Add heroics so ppl can gear up without LFR and it's RNG.
    Yes add an RNG element to solve an RNG problem that will surely work.

  20. #60
    I really really miss the WotLK raid model with having seperate lockouts, 25 being harder than 10 with higher item level.

    It was so fun being able to pug a lot, it was fun gearing up alts. Gearing up alts in 10 man normal/heroic and 25 normal was 100x more fun than gearing them up in LFR. Since LFR came in I lost complete touch with the realm. Before LFR, I knew almost everyone on my realm, as I was pugging several raids a week with several alts, putting the pugs together, knowing who was good, who was bad. Who I wanted to pug with etc. Pugging with the same people week after week etc. That just doesnt happen at the same extent anymore, and I really wish that. WoW has become so unpersonal. Not to mention that LFR is boring as crap. Nobody is talking, nobody cares, everyone is just there because they feel forced to get free epics.

    I really wish that LFR was removed at the moment, the benefits does not justfiy the drawback of dumbing down the community and removing the interraction between players on a realm, and that it went back to seperate lockouts.
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