View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #61
    None of those options would work.

    There just needs to be more 'ramp up' in the difficulty of a raid, at least on normal mode. For 10 and 25 man. First few bosses should be very simple, and give a smattering of loot that should help people gear up for the next few bosses who are a bit more challenging. Finally the last few bosses should be very challenging, almost on par with early heroic modes.

    Thing is, they sort of did this already with previous tiers. Dragon Soul did this to a degree (ignore the quality of the content, just the difficulty), Morchok was a complete joke, Yor'sahj was simple when you learned the mechanics and Zon'ozz only required simple raid cordination. Then Hagara required more coordination and knowledge of the tactics, with Ultraxion being a DPS and healing check that pushed people to play better. Blackhorn was even more challenging, requiring good burst dps, raid awareness, cooldown usage and priorities on killing certain adds. Then Spine was an utter hellhole for many non-hardcore guilds that they struggled with for ages, with Madness being the only issue with my example as it was slightly easier then Spine (though still more difficult then half the rest of the raid). The heroic modes then ramped up almost in the same order, with Zon'ozz being the sore thumb due to the sheer amount of healing required.

    If they just keep doing that, people will do fine in normal modes. The problem with ToT was Horridon being a brick wall right after Jin'rokh, and the rest of the dungeon being relatively simple in comparison up until Dark Animus.

  2. #62
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Make LFR a selectable difficulty for both 10 and 25 man formats so that guilds can clear them without having to deal with the "community" that blizzard currently makes you run LFR with.
    In addition, normals modes should be toned down about 10-15% from where they are at now. If people really want a challenge then they can go do heroic modes.
    Another solution for normals is to add a smaller determination buff (2% per wipe, max 10 stacks) to normal modes, but make the time spent per stack like 5 minutes of active boss time and lock out achievement progress for groups that have stacks of the buff.
    I swear I hadn't read your post when I did mine centering around a version of the determination buff that's only slightly different from yours. Really.

    LFR as selectable for premade groups is an excellent idea and I can't imagine that it would be overly difficult to code.
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  3. #63
    A 10 man LFR level difficulty raid that drops thunderforged raid finder gear with the same loot system of normal and heroic that also shares lockouts with normal and heroic. Requires you to put the group together and run to the dungeon. Would work well for fun/alt runs or pugs but if you're actually killing bosses in normal/heroic you wouldn't bother with. An additional perk would allow lower guilds still working through toes/hof and stuck at an earlier boss to get a bit more gear.

  4. #64
    Pandaren Monk Radio's Avatar
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    I voted for an easy mode but in all honesty I'd prefer:

    Non-Linear instance with appropriate difficulty ramping for the "linear" paths in the instance. 'Somewhat' similar to ulduar.

    Example:

    (elite drops normal loot table with guaranteed 1 extra TFed piece)

    Wing 1: (easy linear)
    - 3 bosses
    1. easy
    2. easy + gimmick
    3. easy + adds, tier, elite mode if encounter done special way

    Wing 2: (medium-hard varied)
    - 4 bosses
    4. medium
    5. medium + gimmick
    6. optional hard
    7. medium + adds, tier, elite mode if 6 defeated
    - 4 and 5 can be done in any order but both must be beaten to reach 6 and 7

    Wing 3: (hard with punishing optionals)
    - 5 bosses
    8. optional very hard
    9. optional very hard
    10. optional very hard
    11. hard, tier, elite mode if 8, 9, 10 defeated
    12. hard, tier, elite mode if encounter done special way

    Wing 4: (final moment of awesome)
    13. final epic multiphase, tier, bonus phase elite mode if all other elite modes defeated


    So, say you only have LFR, normal and Heroic:

    LFR:
    3 seperate runs encompassing:
    - Wing 1 (Fights 1/2/3)
    - Wing 2 (Fights 4/5/7)
    - Wing 3/4 (Fights 11/12/13)
    - all optional fights deactivated

    Beer League/Easy Mode:
    - Run normal mode doing fights 1, 2, 3, 4/5, 7, 11, 12, 13
    - can add optionals when comfortable
    - avoid elite

    Normal progression:
    - Start with beer league run if new guild
    - do optional fights + elites until all elites beaten

    Semi hardcore Heroic progression:
    - must beat all normal elites to unlock heroic
    - beat heroic edition of beer league run
    - optionals when feeling confident
    - avoid heroic elite

    Hardcore Heroic Progression:
    - beat all heroic optionals / elites
    - beat final heroic elite to win race
    Last edited by Radio; 2013-05-17 at 05:41 AM.

  5. #65
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    This is going to sound harsh but, if you can't down normal mode, you/your guild/someone has a problem. There shouldn't be a change. There should be a difficulty between Normal and Heroic before there's one between LFR and Normal. That's just my opinion.

  6. #66
    Isn't every 25m raider just going to vote for option 1?

    My entire guild would leave the game if 10m raids would be made easier. None of us cares for 25m raiding, yet every single one of us wants challenging raid content. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few 10m raiders who feel the same way, so I'm not sure what Blizzard would gain by simply telling us to fuck off and leave their game. So I wonder why this is even listed as a viable option?

  7. #67
    Countless people will likely quit if 10 will start dropping worse gear than 25 man, because they will feel forced to run 25 mans after clearing 10 mans, not to mention any performance issues related to bigger raid groups.

  8. #68
    If I feel like I have to do 25 mans again to stay relevant, my sub will be canceled instantly.

    I quit during WotLK because the logistics of running 25 mans was burning me out, but 10 mans were so noob-level easy that the challenge just wasn't present.

    I came back during Cata when they said that 10/25 would be balanced (I don't want to start that argument, but whether it's true or not, it's close at worst) and I've been having a fucking blast since then doing 10 man heroic progression that is actually really challenging.

    If they come out and say, after 2 expansions of this "Nevermind, we decided that only people who want to organize 25 people get to do hard content" that would be a slap in the face of a huge portion of the playerbase.

    My ideal solution would be something that would probably have to wait until 6.0 raids but I think it would work:

    A "Raid Power" system similar to the monster power system in Diablo 3, for normal modes only.

    LFR would remain exactly as is, and Heroics would remain exactly as is. When you zone into a normal raid, the raid leader would have a UI thing to set between 1 and 10. This will determine the damage done/HP of the mobs you fight. If you have it below 10, it will also incrementally lower the item level of the items dropped.

    Pretending this was present in ToT, Raid Power 10 would drop 522;

    9=520
    8=518
    7=516
    6=514
    etc

    This would allow the "friends/family" guild to go in there on power 1-3 and progress at a fun pace while still having some challenge at their level, without having to deal with the toxic mess that LFR is. Turning on heroic mode would require that you kill all bosses on Power 10.

    This solution would have no effect on the hardcore base (we'll still clear power 10 in week one and move onto heroics anyway, which will not change in the slightest, I think the system works great for guilds like mine right now), while making this much more accessible for noob-ish guilds that want to dabble in raiding a bit.

  9. #69
    I voted for "Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)" out of the options, I will NOT be happy at all if they go back to 10 mans dropping lower iLvl loot and separate lock outs.

    I was pondering another method though.

    Would an optional debuff with lower iLvl loot work?

    So for example you could set 10% debuff and you would get 512 loot, 20% debuff and you would get 502 loot and 30% debuff and you would get no loot?

    I know this makes it overly complicated but I think it has legs.

    (Quite similar to suggestion above)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 09:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    There just needs to be more 'ramp up' in the difficulty of a raid, at least on normal mode. For 10 and 25 man. First few bosses should be very simple, and give a smattering of loot that should help people gear up for the next few bosses who are a bit more challenging. Finally the last few bosses should be very challenging, almost on par with early heroic modes.
    This as well!

    I am sorry but Horridon is a cluster fuck for some guilds!

    And is really really demoralising so early on in a raid.

    If it was say 6th then that would be better.

    Some guilds are in "OK lets go kill 1 boss and get really pissed off trying to kill Horridon again" mode.
    Last edited by Quilzar; 2013-05-17 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Speeling!

  10. #70
    The "add lfr as pickable" difficulty seems the best and less disruptive option. Letting cherry pick on normal would make it easier to people.

    The "I want to carry people" option can only be solved by dong 25n easier, like they did this tier. Cant see the problem as longas 25h tuning remains the same.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Isn't every 25m raider just going to vote for option 1?

    My entire guild would leave the game if 10m raids would be made easier. None of us cares for 25m raiding, yet every single one of us wants challenging raid content. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few 10m raiders who feel the same way, so I'm not sure what Blizzard would gain by simply telling us to fuck off and leave their game. So I wonder why this is even listed as a viable option?
    yep, I have no desire or wish to do 25 mans, if they went back to "10 man easier drop worse loot" I'd quit (especially since I think the difficulty of ToT was really nice*), or at least quit organized raiding and just resub for big patches when everything is available in lfr

    *but I do understand how it might have been to hard for some people
    personally I think another mode, where you need a pre made group, is a bit harder than lfr, drops lfr loot and shares an lockout with lfr would be a good choice, would probably pug my alts through that more than running lfr

    still need some server merges through, can't pug shit if there is noone to pug with
    or maybe some official open raid variant? where you can sign up to raids on the official site, maybe even through an ingame menu thingy?

  12. #72
    Couple of things to OP:
    Just because Blizzard said that they know there is a gap and are thinking how to solve it, doesn't mean that they are going to do something about it. For example, they know that 25 is in a bad spot, but they haven't done anything in what 3 years? The community needs some Blizzard approved tool to find guilds, not the forums, not wowprogress or guildox, and they know it, but they haven't fixed it either. Now, related to this case, maybe from their perspective any of the solutions that you provide have too many drawbacks to make them better than the actual situation. We don't know, they neither. There was no "Family and friends raiding" level of content in t14 and they didn't address this with t15, so who knows, maybe they won't do anything for this. Long story short, the option of Let things like they are is valid even if Blizzard "wants" to change things.

    OT:
    The fights are getting complex to accommodate the necessity of the raiding community, this makes the harder content of today viable content for less people that the harder content of the past, to create Raids for a broader spectrum of players there needs to be accessible content for different type of players, the friends-and-family kind of guild doesn't have an appropriate content for them in t15 and didn't have during t14. So, to keep making the fights complex enough for the hardcore raiders you need to provide a variety of difficulties or continue to alienate the friends-and-family guild from raiding there is an option I think the second is a very bad one. So for the first: this could be done adding more levels (like an easy) or extending the progression of of the levels that we have now. The disadvantage of the latter is that many people won't see the final boss in other setting different than LFR which feels less rewarding.

    An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.
    I choose this, but it has problems.

    Balance overhead, for example you won't have a single soul doing PTR testing for this, everybody in PTR pugs is so overskilled for this, GC said that normals are very hard to test in PTR because the profile of the people there, now you need to try to balance a very casual yet somehow challenging content based on air, because you don't have real data, sounds very hard. Maybe they can release it 2-3 weeks after normals/heroics so you have hard data of what it is easy or hard in this fights, not to gate the content but to make sure that you can provide a content that delivers.

    This solutions isn't complete by itself, item levels, lockouts, size formats are part of the equation here.

  13. #73
    None of the above.

    Increase LFR difficulty or remove LFR. If you throw epics at players who can zerg through end content without knowing tactics or their class, there will always be a yawning gap. Force people to gradually learn how to actually play this otherwise insanely easy game and the gap will close on it's own. Keep giving stuff out for free and conditioning people that they can have access to everything by just logging in and the problem will only increase.

  14. #74
    Just make the bosses more difficult the further you go...

    Horridon is much more difficult then Council or turtle simply because each door is different and because each door has different priority targets
    Council can be difficult at the start but it gets easier once you kill Sul
    Turtle: the hardest part is learning to shoot the small turtles since its a single phase the learning curve isn't as steep as some other fights

    Any raid will become easier over time when you start killing bosses and start getting some gear. By making bosses appropriately harder as you progress the content will nerf itself eventually, but right now (and in the past as well) a early boss can form a bigger wall for your guild then a end boss.

  15. #75
    We need a beer league.

    I really don't like the idea of going back to Wrath split lockouts with 10 man being second class citizens. A not insignificant number of people would quit the game over this.

    Like it or not, most raiders these days are in 10 man raids. Tell these 10 man runs that we're not worthy of equal loot and you will push some of them into pugging 25s, sure, but you'll also push others out the door. As it is, we know that you'll gear faster in a 25 and you'll even get more thunderforged, but in compensation you don't have to put up with crowded vent and maintaining a bench and carrying people you hate and you'll get to know everyone on your team and everyone will get an opportunity to shine.

    Maybe the solution is the Chinese system of multiple lockouts per week? Although that would make heroic raiders consume content faster and get bored faster, so I don't know.

  16. #76
    The Patient Vaiara's Avatar
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    I'd say a gap between difficulty of LFR and Normal Mode is intended, otherwise they wouldn't both exist..

    as to the options above, I'd choose none of them and be another one in for "It's fine the way it is"

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    Countless people will likely quit if 10 will start dropping worse gear than 25 man, because they will feel forced to run 25 mans after clearing 10 mans, not to mention any performance issues related to bigger raid groups.
    Well, obviously that had more subs before than after the split. For me, WoW has become a lot more boring since they changed that. Before the change I used to play wow only, when I did not know what to do, I raided with my main or alts in pugs etc etc. You do not have that anymore, now wow is a secondary game, not the primary, only raid on my main and do nothing other than that.

    Now I have actually quit and restarted wow several times, unsubbed, simly to play other game. I did not do that before as the game had enough content to keep me entertained.

    While some people would quit, I think that the change to seperate the lockout has lost them more subs than keeping them seperated would have. They totally killed the server community, there are no player interaction anymore.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    I'd say a gap between difficulty of LFR and Normal Mode is intended, otherwise they wouldn't both exist..

    as to the options above, I'd choose none of them and be another one in for "It's fine the way it is"
    "It's fine the way it is" is not an option if you read recent interviews with developers. They're going to change SOMETHING. Read the initial post in the thread. Blizzard sees a gap in the difficulty level that is excluding a nonzero amount of the population, and they think that these are the subscriptions that they're losing.

  19. #79
    As it was told already... people won't learn anything since they don't even raid anymore. They are perhaps still subed but don't do actually anything. That's what the part "There is a group of players that wants to do group raiding, but they aren't well served by the current difficulty choices." is about. They simply don't do anything and many of them already left. "They have nothing to do". They don't want to improve, they want to play a game and if WoW has nothing to offer they simply jump off (as they did - no more people in the classroom, sir!).
    And that's a problem.

  20. #80
    keep it the way it is..
    Seriously it's fine how it is now without putting extra unnecessary stress on dev team.. Having more difficulty options would be nice, but that also requires more time tunning, designing fights etc. which would make the quality of the content go down.. Neither time, nor money or staff member are endless for Blizz when they design raids.
    I'd rather have 3 good difficulties than 5 or more of worse quality..
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