View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
757. This poll is closed
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #61
    Countless people will likely quit if 10 will start dropping worse gear than 25 man, because they will feel forced to run 25 mans after clearing 10 mans, not to mention any performance issues related to bigger raid groups.

  2. #62
    If I feel like I have to do 25 mans again to stay relevant, my sub will be canceled instantly.

    I quit during WotLK because the logistics of running 25 mans was burning me out, but 10 mans were so noob-level easy that the challenge just wasn't present.

    I came back during Cata when they said that 10/25 would be balanced (I don't want to start that argument, but whether it's true or not, it's close at worst) and I've been having a fucking blast since then doing 10 man heroic progression that is actually really challenging.

    If they come out and say, after 2 expansions of this "Nevermind, we decided that only people who want to organize 25 people get to do hard content" that would be a slap in the face of a huge portion of the playerbase.

    My ideal solution would be something that would probably have to wait until 6.0 raids but I think it would work:

    A "Raid Power" system similar to the monster power system in Diablo 3, for normal modes only.

    LFR would remain exactly as is, and Heroics would remain exactly as is. When you zone into a normal raid, the raid leader would have a UI thing to set between 1 and 10. This will determine the damage done/HP of the mobs you fight. If you have it below 10, it will also incrementally lower the item level of the items dropped.

    Pretending this was present in ToT, Raid Power 10 would drop 522;

    9=520
    8=518
    7=516
    6=514
    etc

    This would allow the "friends/family" guild to go in there on power 1-3 and progress at a fun pace while still having some challenge at their level, without having to deal with the toxic mess that LFR is. Turning on heroic mode would require that you kill all bosses on Power 10.

    This solution would have no effect on the hardcore base (we'll still clear power 10 in week one and move onto heroics anyway, which will not change in the slightest, I think the system works great for guilds like mine right now), while making this much more accessible for noob-ish guilds that want to dabble in raiding a bit.

  3. #63
    Deleted
    I voted for "Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)" out of the options, I will NOT be happy at all if they go back to 10 mans dropping lower iLvl loot and separate lock outs.

    I was pondering another method though.

    Would an optional debuff with lower iLvl loot work?

    So for example you could set 10% debuff and you would get 512 loot, 20% debuff and you would get 502 loot and 30% debuff and you would get no loot?

    I know this makes it overly complicated but I think it has legs.

    (Quite similar to suggestion above)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 09:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    There just needs to be more 'ramp up' in the difficulty of a raid, at least on normal mode. For 10 and 25 man. First few bosses should be very simple, and give a smattering of loot that should help people gear up for the next few bosses who are a bit more challenging. Finally the last few bosses should be very challenging, almost on par with early heroic modes.
    This as well!

    I am sorry but Horridon is a cluster fuck for some guilds!

    And is really really demoralising so early on in a raid.

    If it was say 6th then that would be better.

    Some guilds are in "OK lets go kill 1 boss and get really pissed off trying to kill Horridon again" mode.
    Last edited by mmoc3dde1cb131; 2013-05-17 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Speeling!

  4. #64
    Deleted
    The "add lfr as pickable" difficulty seems the best and less disruptive option. Letting cherry pick on normal would make it easier to people.

    The "I want to carry people" option can only be solved by dong 25n easier, like they did this tier. Cant see the problem as longas 25h tuning remains the same.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    Isn't every 25m raider just going to vote for option 1?

    My entire guild would leave the game if 10m raids would be made easier. None of us cares for 25m raiding, yet every single one of us wants challenging raid content. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few 10m raiders who feel the same way, so I'm not sure what Blizzard would gain by simply telling us to fuck off and leave their game. So I wonder why this is even listed as a viable option?
    yep, I have no desire or wish to do 25 mans, if they went back to "10 man easier drop worse loot" I'd quit (especially since I think the difficulty of ToT was really nice*), or at least quit organized raiding and just resub for big patches when everything is available in lfr

    *but I do understand how it might have been to hard for some people
    personally I think another mode, where you need a pre made group, is a bit harder than lfr, drops lfr loot and shares an lockout with lfr would be a good choice, would probably pug my alts through that more than running lfr

    still need some server merges through, can't pug shit if there is noone to pug with
    or maybe some official open raid variant? where you can sign up to raids on the official site, maybe even through an ingame menu thingy?

  6. #66
    Couple of things to OP:
    Just because Blizzard said that they know there is a gap and are thinking how to solve it, doesn't mean that they are going to do something about it. For example, they know that 25 is in a bad spot, but they haven't done anything in what 3 years? The community needs some Blizzard approved tool to find guilds, not the forums, not wowprogress or guildox, and they know it, but they haven't fixed it either. Now, related to this case, maybe from their perspective any of the solutions that you provide have too many drawbacks to make them better than the actual situation. We don't know, they neither. There was no "Family and friends raiding" level of content in t14 and they didn't address this with t15, so who knows, maybe they won't do anything for this. Long story short, the option of Let things like they are is valid even if Blizzard "wants" to change things.

    OT:
    The fights are getting complex to accommodate the necessity of the raiding community, this makes the harder content of today viable content for less people that the harder content of the past, to create Raids for a broader spectrum of players there needs to be accessible content for different type of players, the friends-and-family kind of guild doesn't have an appropriate content for them in t15 and didn't have during t14. So, to keep making the fights complex enough for the hardcore raiders you need to provide a variety of difficulties or continue to alienate the friends-and-family guild from raiding there is an option I think the second is a very bad one. So for the first: this could be done adding more levels (like an easy) or extending the progression of of the levels that we have now. The disadvantage of the latter is that many people won't see the final boss in other setting different than LFR which feels less rewarding.

    An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.
    I choose this, but it has problems.

    Balance overhead, for example you won't have a single soul doing PTR testing for this, everybody in PTR pugs is so overskilled for this, GC said that normals are very hard to test in PTR because the profile of the people there, now you need to try to balance a very casual yet somehow challenging content based on air, because you don't have real data, sounds very hard. Maybe they can release it 2-3 weeks after normals/heroics so you have hard data of what it is easy or hard in this fights, not to gate the content but to make sure that you can provide a content that delivers.

    This solutions isn't complete by itself, item levels, lockouts, size formats are part of the equation here.

  7. #67
    None of the above.

    Increase LFR difficulty or remove LFR. If you throw epics at players who can zerg through end content without knowing tactics or their class, there will always be a yawning gap. Force people to gradually learn how to actually play this otherwise insanely easy game and the gap will close on it's own. Keep giving stuff out for free and conditioning people that they can have access to everything by just logging in and the problem will only increase.

  8. #68
    Just make the bosses more difficult the further you go...

    Horridon is much more difficult then Council or turtle simply because each door is different and because each door has different priority targets
    Council can be difficult at the start but it gets easier once you kill Sul
    Turtle: the hardest part is learning to shoot the small turtles since its a single phase the learning curve isn't as steep as some other fights

    Any raid will become easier over time when you start killing bosses and start getting some gear. By making bosses appropriately harder as you progress the content will nerf itself eventually, but right now (and in the past as well) a early boss can form a bigger wall for your guild then a end boss.

  9. #69
    We need a beer league.

    I really don't like the idea of going back to Wrath split lockouts with 10 man being second class citizens. A not insignificant number of people would quit the game over this.

    Like it or not, most raiders these days are in 10 man raids. Tell these 10 man runs that we're not worthy of equal loot and you will push some of them into pugging 25s, sure, but you'll also push others out the door. As it is, we know that you'll gear faster in a 25 and you'll even get more thunderforged, but in compensation you don't have to put up with crowded vent and maintaining a bench and carrying people you hate and you'll get to know everyone on your team and everyone will get an opportunity to shine.

    Maybe the solution is the Chinese system of multiple lockouts per week? Although that would make heroic raiders consume content faster and get bored faster, so I don't know.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    I'd say a gap between difficulty of LFR and Normal Mode is intended, otherwise they wouldn't both exist..

    as to the options above, I'd choose none of them and be another one in for "It's fine the way it is"

  11. #71
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    Countless people will likely quit if 10 will start dropping worse gear than 25 man, because they will feel forced to run 25 mans after clearing 10 mans, not to mention any performance issues related to bigger raid groups.
    Well, obviously that had more subs before than after the split. For me, WoW has become a lot more boring since they changed that. Before the change I used to play wow only, when I did not know what to do, I raided with my main or alts in pugs etc etc. You do not have that anymore, now wow is a secondary game, not the primary, only raid on my main and do nothing other than that.

    Now I have actually quit and restarted wow several times, unsubbed, simly to play other game. I did not do that before as the game had enough content to keep me entertained.

    While some people would quit, I think that the change to seperate the lockout has lost them more subs than keeping them seperated would have. They totally killed the server community, there are no player interaction anymore.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    I'd say a gap between difficulty of LFR and Normal Mode is intended, otherwise they wouldn't both exist..

    as to the options above, I'd choose none of them and be another one in for "It's fine the way it is"
    "It's fine the way it is" is not an option if you read recent interviews with developers. They're going to change SOMETHING. Read the initial post in the thread. Blizzard sees a gap in the difficulty level that is excluding a nonzero amount of the population, and they think that these are the subscriptions that they're losing.

  13. #73
    Deleted
    As it was told already... people won't learn anything since they don't even raid anymore. They are perhaps still subed but don't do actually anything. That's what the part "There is a group of players that wants to do group raiding, but they aren't well served by the current difficulty choices." is about. They simply don't do anything and many of them already left. "They have nothing to do". They don't want to improve, they want to play a game and if WoW has nothing to offer they simply jump off (as they did - no more people in the classroom, sir!).
    And that's a problem.

  14. #74
    keep it the way it is..
    Seriously it's fine how it is now without putting extra unnecessary stress on dev team.. Having more difficulty options would be nice, but that also requires more time tunning, designing fights etc. which would make the quality of the content go down.. Neither time, nor money or staff member are endless for Blizz when they design raids.
    I'd rather have 3 good difficulties than 5 or more of worse quality..
    Quote Originally Posted by Archaeon View Post
    In tbc everyone wished they were playing vanilla. In cataclysm everyone will wish they were playing wotlk.
    ^------True story!!

  15. #75
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    still need some server merges through, can't pug shit if there is noone to pug with
    That do not have to do with the servers. That has to do with LFR and shared lockouts.

    1. Good players do not gear their alts up through old tier/current tier raiding anymore, as much as before. They do it through LFR and Valor.
    Because of this, you see a lot less alt run pugs than before created by good people.

    2. Because of the shared lockouts you do not see anymore 25 man raiders making 10 man pugs all the time. Also, whilst more unusual, you do not see 10 man guilds doing 25 man pugs. That was not as common, but on my realm there used to be atleast 5-6 10 man goes 25 man pugs each week.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    That do not have to do with the servers. That has to do with LFR and shared lockouts.

    1. Good players do not gear their alts up through old tier/current tier raiding anymore, as much as before. They do it through LFR and Valor.
    Because of this, you see a lot less alt run pugs than before created by good people.

    2. Because of the shared lockouts you do not see anymore 25 man raiders making 10 man pugs all the time. Also, whilst more unusual, you do not see 10 man guilds doing 25 man pugs. That was not as common, but on my realm there used to be atleast 5-6 10 man goes 25 man pugs each week.
    there was no t14 pugs on my server till it got nerfed coz it was too hard and ther also isnt any t15 pug and i think itll stay thta way till its nerfed

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I really really miss the WotLK raid model with having seperate lockouts, 25 being harder than 10 with higher item level.

    It was so fun being able to pug a lot, it was fun gearing up alts. Gearing up alts in 10 man normal/heroic and 25 normal was 100x more fun than gearing them up in LFR. Since LFR came in I lost complete touch with the realm. Before LFR, I knew almost everyone on my realm, as I was pugging several raids a week with several alts, putting the pugs together, knowing who was good, who was bad. Who I wanted to pug with etc. Pugging with the same people week after week etc. That just doesnt happen at the same extent anymore, and I really wish that. WoW has become so unpersonal. Not to mention that LFR is boring as crap. Nobody is talking, nobody cares, everyone is just there because they feel forced to get free epics.

    I really wish that LFR was removed at the moment, the benefits does not justfiy the drawback of dumbing down the community and removing the interraction between players on a realm, and that it went back to seperate lockouts.
    It's sort of a Pandora's Box, I can't ever see them taking away LFR even though I feel it destroyed pugs and server communities.
    Hi Sephurik

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.
    I was wondering the same thing.

  19. #79
    i feel the same about 10 and 25man having shared lockouts and droping the same loot

  20. #80
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninotchka View Post
    "It's fine the way it is" is not an option if you read recent interviews with developers. They're going to change SOMETHING. Read the initial post in the thread. Blizzard sees a gap in the difficulty level that is excluding a nonzero amount of the population, and they think that these are the subscriptions that they're losing.
    I read the post, but I think the system with these three difficulties (if you count LFR as a raid difficulty) is fine, so I wouldn't change anything.
    in my opinion the gap in difficulty between LFR and normal mode is perfectly fine and shouldn't be removed/changed, it would be weird if there was none as it wouldn't make any sense to keep two raid types which are basically the same.

    if Blizzard sees the need to change something I wouldn't know what they should change, due to the reasons given.

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