How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

I have no idea if what I am about to post has been posted before but here goes.

I voted for an easier 10 man, with that i think there should be a heroic scenario like option. What this means is that there will be an option to queue for a 10/25 man raid (I am not sure if 25 is doable as well). The group as to be formed before queueing which is the same as the heroic scenarios, you can not random queue if your group is not complete. This raid will either be on the same difficulty level or higher. I personally would like to see a higher difficulty, pretty much between LFR and Normal modes (again I am not sure wether this is possible or easy to set up). This way raiding guilds who are stuck will be able to get more practice for when they take on the normal modes without getting hold back by the LFR "noobs". As for the loot dropping inside it could be taken care of the same way they do it in LFR, a chance on loot or a bag of gold. The only exception I would make there is after killing the end boss, Lei Shen, you receive something like the cache you receive the first time you complete a heroic scenario and hand in the quest. This will be more rewarding for killing the in between difficulty for guilds. The item level of the dropping items could be the same as heroic scenarios as well. Its not Normal ilevel but close which will mean guilds can take on normal modes easier if they are geared up a bit.

What I believe should never and I mean never ever happen is difference in ilevel between normal 10 and 25 man. From every aspect this will not be fair to the 10 man raiders which I believe nowadays take up a great portion of the raiding community. The fact is all other activities outside of raiding, take brawler arena for instance, will depend on gear as well a skill. Being in 10 man normal raiding guild will eventually not give you the same gear as a 25 normal raiding guild but you do need the same skill level. See how this leads to a new gap. Also it is impossible for some people to raid in 25 mans even if they wanted to and pugging is pretty much not an option.

These points are what my views are concerning the given options. I myself would not change anything about the current set up. Why you ask. Well because of the following, with the starting of Dragon Soul we got to raid on 3 different difficulties. This lead to the majority of the people getting to see all of the content the raids had to offer. This makes it sound like a major enhancement for everyones gameplay. It is. Then why do we have to get yet another difficulty. Everyone already gets to meet the new content through LFR, then why do they so desperately need to clear normals. If you can not do it reconsider going at all. Im not telling people to get out because they suck but its a game, not every difficulty should be reachable for everyone. If they make everything puggable its just a matter of time before people will start complaining about heroics being to hard to pug. I call this the egocentric view, everyone wants everything. Well just like the REAL world, it should be like this: YOU CAN NOT HAVE IT ALL! And just like the real world there are always people who will.

I myself have not cleared any heroic yet, this because I have not been playing much lately and my guild has about just enough people to raid on set days. Meaning if someone does not show up we will not raid. I have as a matter of fact cleared normal, which seems is not that hard so whats the fuss all about?

[Deleted]

It is already possible with data to show that the 'gap' is larger between heroic modes than between normal modes.

Nerfing normal modes would only make those players stuck in normal mode more pissed when reaching heroic modes because then they would not have a snowballs chance in hell if killing a boss. What would the point be? Grats! You killed normal modes after 2 weeks! Now you have no chance of ever killing an heroic mode so just farm 12/12 normal until 5.4.

Do you realise how pissed those players complaining about normal mode would be? They would have nothing to progress, since normals would be over to quick and heroics would be way to hard for them.

Normal mode is working as a perfect training ground for new raiders.

[Deleted]

Normals are fine. If they nerf normals, they kinda have to nerf HCs or otherwise there's gigantic gap between normal and HC. Imagine facerolling through normal mode just to hit bedrock at first HC boss.

I think LFR gives people false picture of their own skills. How good you do in recount in LFR doesn't really mean anything, since you can ignore 90% of mechanics. Good group of 2 tanks, ~4dps and one healer could kill most, if not all bosses in ToT LFR.

[Blizzhoof]

The problem is the people who want to bring their idiot friend/wife/husband who doesn't actually want to try or is too stupid to play at even 1/2 the skill level of a good player. Then, they think that they should be able to kill all the bosses even though 10%-50% of their raid is dead weight. I mean geez, go look at some logs. You can make an absolutely ridiculous amount of mistakes and still kill any of the bosses in ToT on normal.

Again, the problem is people who think that they should be able to take all of their friends regardless of skill level and defeat all the content. Normal mode raiding should take group coordination, enough awareness to move out of something within 2-3 seconds, and some competence in your rotation/class mechanics.

If they want the people that think they shouldn't need to know anything about their class or the boss mechanics to feel like they've succeeded, then they should just make another difficulty level exclusively for 10-mans (because it really would be wasted development time to make it for 25s) called "Social Mode" to sidestep the stigma associated with calling it "Easy Mode."

[Crashdummy]

Simple. There is a huge gap between LFR and Normal, and there is no gap between Normal and Heroic (to the point that some Normal bosses are harder than some Heroic ones).

The solution is clear, Normal should be in the middle between LFR and Heroic, with gaps for both sides.

The solution is to nerf Normal modes, leaving LFR and Heroic as they are.

[Deleted]

Simple. There is a huge gap between LFR and Normal, and there is no gap between Normal and Heroic (to the point that some Normal bosses are harder than some Heroic ones).

The solution is clear, Normal should be in the middle between LFR and Heroic, with gaps for both sides.

The solution is to nerf Normal modes, leaving LFR and Heroic as they are.

I'd like some examples of that. I can see Jin'Rokh being easier than Lei Shen if your raid is very good at dodging things, but past that can't think of any.

[Crashdummy]

I've been playing since 4.3, and I meant that normal is faceroll for the majority of raiders, not players sorry

And you would be wrong. 42k guilds started T14, only 20% of that finished it before 5.2 after 5 months, with items upgrades giving them even more power and with some guilds having several bosses on farm.

There is a huge decline in Normal raiding in MoP.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 08:08 AM ----------

I'd like some examples of that. I can see Jin'Rokh being easier than Lei Shen if your raid is very good at dodging things, but past that can't think of any.

Stone Guards Heroic and Empress Normal, there, you have an example.

And yes, Jinrokh H is easier than Lei Shen N, for everyone.

[Deleted]

And you would be wrong. 42k guilds started T14, only 20% of that finished it before 5.2 after 5 months, with items upgrades giving them even more power and with some guilds having several bosses on farm.

There is a huge decline in Normal raiding in MoP.

---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 08:08 AM ----------



Stone Guards Heroic and Empress Normal, there, you have an example.

And yes, Jinrokh H is easier than Lei Shen N, for everyone.

I consider MSV to be a different tier than Hof/Terrace, since they drop different ilvl.

Also your second statement cannot be proven since not all guilds who have killed Lei Shen have killed Jin'Rokh HC.

[Crashdummy]

I consider MSV to be a different tier than Hof/Terrace, since they drop different ilvl.

Also your second statement cannot be proven since not all guilds who have killed Lei Shen have killed Jin'Rokh HC.

What you consider is irrelevant, they are not different tiers.

You still have to figure the fights out, even if they are easier that something you already killed.

For example, Will of the Emperor was easier than Elegon, yet not everyone that killed Elegon had killed Will.

Anyone who has done the fight know that Jinrohk H is easier than Lei Shen N.

Only 20% of those that attempted finished T14 before T15 lanched, normal raiding has decreased over 40% in MoP.
The only reason why T15 numbers are not as bad as T14 ones is because the ones raiding are the top half of raiders, the others have quitted already.

[Blizzhoof]

And yes, Jinrokh H is easier than Lei Shen N, for everyone.

I disagree. On H Jin'rokh, if 1/25 of your raid messes up ionization or the lightning orb, then it's a wipe. Whereas on N Lei Shen, people can mess up any mechanic (multiple times) and it's still easily doable.

[Phlegethon]

Remove LFR, force wannabe raiders to actually get good.

Now didn't your mama tell you to think before you spoke?
I recently switched to LFR raiding only since my guild stopped raiding and I cba to find a new guild, move server or just put in the effort to raid on a set schedule. I'll play whenever I want to play and I like to be able to do LFR on my time.

It has very little to do with being good or bad. (not that I would claim to be good or bad either way)

[alucardtnuoc]

The biggest problem, is their is to much information for a lot of players to grasp and so they either don't bother reading/testing themselves, or they don't ask others.

Going into a raid where both tanks are new, and don't say ANYTHING causes more wipes and people will call them idiots/bads. They could be good players, who know their class well, but they lacked the effort to read the dungeon journal or to tell people it's their first time.

The game is only as hard as people make it, if you don't read your abilities, dungeon journal or ask for advice/tips about various things, how do you expect to learn ANYTHING.

[Crashdummy]

I disagree. On H Jin'rokh, if 1/25 of your raid messes up ionization or the lightning orb, then it's a wipe. Whereas on N Lei Shen, people can mess up any mechanic (multiple times) and it's still easily doable.

On H Jinrohk, you have a lot less mechanics that you can mess up with.

[Deleted]

On H Jinrohk, you have a lot less mechanics that you can mess up with.

Wowprogress stats says otherwise.

[Crashdummy]

Wowprogress stats says otherwise.

Not everyone wants to do Heroic modes, and again, read my posts because you clearly havent, i already said that a fight being easier than another doesnt mean it would be a one shot.

Also, wowprogress showed that more people have killed Stone Guards H than Empress N in a place where killing Empress wasnt required for Stone Guards H.

Now that changed because after T15 more peolpe wre able to progress in T14.

[Deleted]

More guilds killed Sinestra tha Al'Akir H in T11. Did that mean that Sinestra was easier? No. Sinestra gave more and better loot and was more prestigeous. Why waste time killing Al'Akir when rewards from Sinestra was 10x higher?
Same goes for council in T11. Everyone skipped it. Why waste time on it? The loot was crap anyway. If you had to spend 3 raids to get a kill on council or 5 raids to get a kill on cho'gall, it was still time better spent to go for cho'gall.

Seem thing with Stone Guards. You got attuned to Stone Guards very easy by killing WotE. Stone Guards was fairly easy and gave better loot than empress, not to mention that it would probably help your guild recruitment more if you had 1 boss down on heroic. So the time was better spent on stone guards than empress.

And yes, I did read your post. You are claiming that there is a giant gap getting into normals and no gap going from normals to heroic. Progress stats clearly tells that is not true.

[Deleted]

jin'rokh HC was the encounter we've wiped the most on in mop

[Voidgazer]

I'll play whenever I want to

You see, kid, playing WoW is a privilege, not a right.
If you don't have time to play a game - you stop. The world doesn't revolve around your, and I don't see a reason why WoW should either.
You can't have everything at once even if you really, really want that. Didn't your mama teach you that?

[Crashdummy]

More guilds killed Sinestra tha Al'Akir H in T11. Did that mean that Sinestra was easier? No. Sinestra gave more and better loot and was more prestigeous. Why waste time killing Al'Akir when rewards from Sinestra was 10x higher?
Same goes for council in T11. Everyone skipped it. Why waste time on it? The loot was crap anyway. If you had to spend 3 raids to get a kill on council or 5 raids to get a kill on cho'gall, it was still time better spent to go for cho'gall.

Seem thing with Stone Guards. You got attuned to Stone Guards very easy by killing WotE. Stone Guards was fairly easy and gave better loot than empress, not to mention that it would probably help your guild recruitment more if you had 1 boss down on heroic. So the time was better spent on stone guards than empress.

And yes, I did read your post. You are claiming that there is a giant gap getting into normals and no gap going from normals to heroic. Progress stats clearly tells that is not true.

This is funny, because after T15 launch, Empress kills climbed from 13k to 22k, weird behaviour for people who only "wants better gear". The only thing that changed though was some nerfs to T14 which made the last part of HoF more accesible.

People killed Stone Guards because it was easier not because it dropped better loot, even when killing Empress not only gave them loot, but also opened Terrace and allowed them to try HoF H.

I have already provided enough Data. I dont have the time, will or energy to keep this never ending discussions about this. Data is clear, you can decide to ignore it as much as you want.

This is my last post in the thread, have fun and i wish you success in everything you decide to do from now on.

Farewell.

[Deleted]

It is already possible with data to show that the 'gap' is larger between heroic modes than between normal modes.

Nerf them both then.

Nerfing normal modes would only make those players stuck in normal mode more pissed when reaching heroic modes because then they would not have a snowballs chance in hell if killing a boss. What would the point be? Grats! You killed normal modes after 2 weeks! Now you have no chance of ever killing an heroic mode so just farm 12/12 normal until 5.4.

There is a difference between doing some content and doing almosy no content. Big difference in getting stuck on boss 11 of 12 instead of 1 of 12, for example.

People are only asking for something to do socially as an organised group that's not brutally punishing. Get is through your head, they aren't progression raiders.

Do you realise how pissed those players complaining about normal mode would be?

Yes, they wouldn't give a toss.

They would have nothing to progress, since normals would be over to quick and heroics would be way to hard for them.

They don't want to progress nearly as much as they want to have fun. Knockabout raid with friends that is over in a few hours = fun. Cockblocked on boss 2 = not fun.

Normal mode is working as a perfect training ground for new raiders.

Numbers say otherwise. So does common sense. Imagine 10 brand new players all levelling together and then making their first raid group. The first boss they ever face after a completely faceroll levelling experience is stone guards. Is this a perfect training environment? I don't think so. lol