View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    and you know what's funny? I improved over the time. When I started playing in TBC guess what did I run? - Karazhan, thats my biggest achievement there.
    Was I crying for nefrs? hell not me or anyone I know did it, it was obvious for people back in a day - something is too hard for me, either I learn to play or find something else to do in a game (yeah I did a lot of pvp then, there wasnt not a lot other options, like we have now).
    You are saying raids are harder then ever but here I am clearing normals quite easily and I'm able to kill few bosses on hc before the next tier hits.

    Why do people can't follow this road? why they want easy way of nerfing, dumbing down everything to their level? thats fucking beyond me, I don't get it, these people play video games but aren't gamers at all.
    You're ignoring what this whole post was about.

    The gap.

    Raiding has never been harder than it is now, while the rest of the game has (arguably) never been easier. That's why the raiding jump is wiping people out, because the gap is too big.

    46 pages and you still don't get this?

    That's absolutely staggering.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  2. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    and you know what's funny? I improved over the time. When I started playing in TBC guess what did I run? - Karazhan, thats my biggest achievement there.
    Was I crying for nefrs? hell not me or anyone I know did it, it was obvious for people back in a day - something is too hard for me, either I learn to play or find something else to do in a game (yeah I did a lot of pvp then, there wasnt not a lot other options, like we have now).
    You are saying raids are harder then ever but here I am clearing normals quite easily and I'm able to kill few bosses on hc before the next tier hits.

    Why do people can't follow this road? why they want easy way of nerfing, dumbing down everything to their level? thats fucking beyond me, I don't get it, these people play video games but aren't gamers at all.
    Good for you!

    As has been repeatedly said in this forum many times, the broad spectrum of people playing this game are NOT doing what you claim they should be doing. They aren't improving.

    It's funny you bring up Karazhan; I think it was one of the best raids Blizzard has made. You know why? It wasn't too easy, it wasn't too hard. 'Baddie' guilds could BS their way around in there and still feel some sense of accomplishment when they ended their raid week after downing Opera. Hardcore guilds were running clears in under 2 hours with 2 groups (maybe 3) before they gathered for Magtheridon/Gruul's for the rest of the evening. Attumen was a joke, Moroes was cake, Maiden was slightly harder and required a positioning strategy - but still pretty easy. After that, things got just a bit harder with depending on how your group was set up with the Opera event and which fight you would be doing.

    Once you got past Opera, you had CHOICES in which way to proceed. Granted, you needed to have someone who had completed the questline in your group, but you could tackle Nightbane before you went to Curator. After Curator, you could work on either Shade (which was a difficult fight the first few weeks you were on him), you could work on Netherspite, you could work on Illhoof, or you could go straight to Chess.

    For the time though, Prince and Nightbane were very difficult fights. Kara had something for everyone, which is in contrast to ToT. Nowadays, people are downing Jin'rokh and then when they get to Horridon they're like "NOPE!" and they quit. In Kara, hell you could even do the dungeon boss (which no one really did) and maybe get lucky with some gear that was actually helpful to people. It provided a relatively smooth difficulty curve for the population.

    You are a heroic raider, and like 99% of you guys on these forums you fail to see past your stuck-up noses and consider what is good for this game. Do people need to get better? Maybe. But they aren't, so what are you stuck with? I hope you hardcores realize that every time you say 'Get better or stick to LFR/Quit', people are doing the latter, and the pool of players from which you draw recruits is shrinking. The WoW community is shit, and most of it stems from the elitist, toxic attitude of players like you who aren't happy unless they can flaunt in someone else's face just how superior they are. If anything, you should want normals to be more accessible, so that people can feel a sense of accomplishment and get a small sense of satisfaction in what is clearly one of the only ways you derive what little happiness you can from this game.

    You should be advocating something that could help grow the game; not be against it. Look at any profession sports organization. They all have programs set up around the world designed to teach kids about their sport and make it accessible to them. I suppose you could argue LFR fills that purpose, but as of right now going from LFR into Normal modes is like saying 'Ok, good, you have T-Ball mastered, you're ready for the AAA farm system!'.
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Given the tiny fraction of the player population doing normal (and even more so, heroic) raids, why should it be otherwise? Be thankful you're getting what you're getting; you probably are getting more than your share of the developer effort still.
    Yeah, but I think the easy mode stuff ends up boring anyone that can't do normal mode raids on a regular basis, which is more than a small minority I believe, I guess we'll never know for sure though.. Wotlk pretty much set the extremely easy pace and while some folks did enjoy it, it appears now that even those guys are bored. The answer doesn't lie in making more really easy content though - that's the catch lol.

    LFR would be much much better if it only had 3 or 4 bosses, and they actually presented challenges (where you could wipe if you failed on mechanics) and are more likely to drop gear based off of that. Doing 12 mind numbingly boring bosses is over kill even for guys that want to see the place but couldn't normally, after the first week - adding in a 10 man version of top of that would just make it worse. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-28 at 11:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You're ignoring what this whole post was about.

    The gap.

    Raiding has never been harder than it is now, while the rest of the game has (arguably) never been easier. That's why the raiding jump is wiping people out, because the gap is too big.

    46 pages and you still don't get this?

    That's absolutely staggering.
    Not quite sure if this gap really exists though - I mean on any boss if you fail to mechanics, you'd normal die - now LFR gives players a way around that. I think in reality, LFR just sets up players to fail on these bosses since it generally encourages people to ignore those same mechanics. With VP gear, LFR drops, and now heroic scenario drops, I know a lot of guys will hate hearing this, but it does boil down to a L2P issue.

  4. #924
    As part of a 10 man very casual group, I would not support a nerfed or a 4th tier.

    We fail continously on current content, due to peeps subjecting themselves to basic damaging mechanics. I wouldn't want these mechanics dumbing down on my behalf, I can still play my part (heals) to the best of my ability, which I would unable to do if the content was nerfed. I don't have any right to claim beyond 1/12 n tot, if I wanted that right so badly I'd join a slightly more serious raiding guild

    To bridge content and gear gap I want rescaled old 5mans, no LFD, but hard, not something you can rush through.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrantworm View Post
    As part of a 10 man very casual group, I would not support a nerfed or a 4th tier.

    We fail continously on current content, due to peeps subjecting themselves to basic damaging mechanics. I wouldn't want these mechanics dumbing down on my behalf, I can still play my part (heals) to the best of my ability, which I would unable to do if the content was nerfed. I don't have any right to claim beyond 1/12 n tot, if I wanted that right so badly I'd join a slightly more serious raiding guild

    To bridge content and gear gap I want rescaled old 5mans, no LFD, but hard, not something you can rush through.
    Internet fistbump

    Healers have a great perspective on who's failing on damage mechanics but it's useless unless you let them know!
    Taking a minute or two between wipes to discuss where you can improve will make a world of difference.

    You just have to be a little sensitive when addressing issues is all which is the HARDEST part of a casual raiding guild.

  6. #926
    The best way to solve the gap, that sadly will never happen, is to bring back Heroic 5 mans and Karazhan. I've never seen the average skill level of LFD people rise as fast as when Zandalari 5mans were introduced in Cata. Sadly, that was more likely because baddies quit queuing them than player base actually improving that much. Dedicated, easier 10 man raid would definitely help, but given that Blizz nowadays seems to always draw the "we're poor and out of resources"-card that's not very likely to happen ever again.

  7. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    Not quite sure if this gap really exists though - I mean on any boss if you fail to mechanics, you'd normal die - now LFR gives players a way around that. I think in reality, LFR just sets up players to fail on these bosses since it generally encourages people to ignore those same mechanics. With VP gear, LFR drops, and now heroic scenario drops, I know a lot of guys will hate hearing this, but it does boil down to a L2P issue.
    Come on, we've got to stop this argument that there's no gap; it's patent nonsense, and everyone knows it.

    Nothing teaches you raid skills prior to normal mode raid bosses, and the developers are being pretty clear about the fact they think normal raiding is now harder than it's ever been (it was self-evident before, anyway). Levelling, questing, five-man dungeons and scenarios are all utterly trivial and teach new players very, very little about how organised group content is supposed to go. I've noted Firefly's argument about the gap being bigger in heroics and found it interesting, but it's deeply flawed - the biggest gap, very clearly, is between normal mode raiding and everything else.

    It'll remain arguable, but normal raids are the toughest they've ever been, even accounting for the initial iteration of heroics in 3.2.

    Nobody will argue that the rest of the game has never been simpler and less educative.

    This is the gap we need to address for the sake of the community and the game.

    Arguing it doesn't exist helps nobody.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by samthing View Post
    The best way to solve the gap, that sadly will never happen, is to bring back Heroic 5 mans and Karazhan. I've never seen the average skill level of LFD people rise as fast as when Zandalari 5mans were introduced in Cata. Sadly, that was more likely because baddies quit queuing them than player base actually improving that much. Dedicated, easier 10 man raid would definitely help, but given that Blizz nowadays seems to always draw the "we're poor and out of resources"-card that's not very likely to happen ever again.
    I think the current development team have learned something about the game with challenge modes, actually (something the previous team learned in The Burning Crusade, but hey ho), and that a lack of dungeons just isn't a good model to be moving on with. WoW is also getting a number of staff back into the pot from the Titan reset, so the workload may not be quite so daunting.

    We can only hope some of those staff are artists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  8. #928
    I'm also thinking, that what is missing is just real dungeons. Not like instantiate daily quest with 4 other random people we have now.
    LFR are sightseeing tour of raids which is not bad at all because it make raid content "available" to lot of people. But they are realy too far from normal raid in term of difficulty.
    Back in Vanilla, lvl 60 dungeons where like mini-raid in term of time needed or size (10mans LBRS or UBRS). They also had their own tier set. I didn't play a lot in BC, but i have also this sensation for the difficulty of its heroic dungeons.

    Maybe the solution could be to remove tier items from lfr, putting them in real dungeons (no random queue like current heroic scenario). Perhaps even lower the ilvl from LFR items and make those catch up items ilvl for normal raid only available in those dungeons.

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I've noted Firefly's argument about the gap being bigger in heroics and found it interesting, but it's deeply flawed - the biggest gap, very clearly, is between normal mode raiding and everything else.
    Yes, it is deeply flawed because it goes against your opinion and has all statistics backing it up.

    I have been asking around a lot of the subject with people that raided since BC and WotLK. And the general consensus seems to be that normals are easier/as easy as ever. Never heard anyone say that they are hard and most people have agreed that they were a lot harder in t11,t10,t8

    Now this is of course no evidence of anything, just a small census poll with small sample size. However, neither do you have any evidence that normals are harder than ever. The fact that normals are getting cleared faster and faster and faster each tier by the HC guilds should incline the opposite.

    The question also is, how do you balance a boss to be a perfect entry level boss? Stone Guards required about 5 people knowing what they are doing to be able to 5 man on release in 463 gear. Jin'Rokh can probably be 6-7 manned with a team knowing what they are doing in 489 gear.

    So, how loosely should a boss be tuned to make it 'acceptable' as an entry boss? Current entry bosses require people to play at 50-70% of their class. Even less if they are LFR geared, which everyone and their mother is. So how easily tuned do a boss need to be?
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  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, it is deeply flawed because it goes against your opinion and has all statistics backing it up.

    I have been asking around a lot of the subject with people that raided since BC and WotLK. And the general consensus seems to be that normals are easier/as easy as ever. Never heard anyone say that they are hard and most people have agreed that they were a lot harder in t11,t10,t8

    Now this is of course no evidence of anything, just a small census poll with small sample size. However, neither do you have any evidence that normals are harder than ever. The fact that normals are getting cleared faster and faster and faster each tier by the HC guilds should incline the opposite.

    The question also is, how do you balance a boss to be a perfect entry level boss? Stone Guards required about 5 people knowing what they are doing to be able to 5 man on release in 463 gear. Jin'Rokh can probably be 6-7 manned with a team knowing what they are doing in 489 gear.

    So, how loosely should a boss be tuned to make it 'acceptable' as an entry boss? Current entry bosses require people to play at 50-70% of their class. Even less if they are LFR geared, which everyone and their mother is. So how easily tuned do a boss need to be?
    The HC guilds aren't who we are even remotely talking about, and I really don't know why this keeps getting brought up. The HC guilds shouldn't factor into difficulty because they're above the average, and no offense but nobody should care if the very tiny fraction of uber-leet heroic guilds clear everything in a couple of weeks and then get bored.

    Also I highly doubt that any average guild could 5-man Stone Guard in 463 gear, or 6-7 man Jin'rokh in 489 gear. Your typical heroic raider, probably, but not the kind of player and guild we have been discussing for god knows how many pages.

    There almost certainly isn't a gap at all for the average HC raider, which seems to be a lot more common here than elsewhere, but there certainly is a gap for the average, friends+family, "beer n' pretzels", call them what you will guilds, of which I have already given a profile for (and shall now repeat):

    Quote Originally Posted by Me: A Profile of the Average Raid Guild
    1) Runs with a mix of good/average/below-average players; is almost certainly a 10-man team.
    2) Can't be picky about who they bring to a raid; there may be a few "core" raiders but it's usually not a set group
    3) Plays with friends/family and doesn't want to kick them to the curb
    4) Wants something more organized/challenging than LFR, but right now is getting smashed to bits on early bosses in ToT, and before that got smashed on Stone Guard/Elegon/Garalon in T14.


    Now, I'm no longer a dedicated raider but I fill a spot in a guild that pretty much meets this criteria because they are longtime friends, and we had fun in Firelands (after the nerfs, anyway) and Dragon Soul (ending up 5/8H before things kind of slowed down). By the standards here, these people "had no business raiding" because we were only 3/7 normal in T12 before the nerfs, and Dragon Soul was a joke all around so shouldn't count.

    Anyways, we 2-shot Horridon last night (I had not done Horridon on normal before; I had done it on LFR only; truth be told it played out roughly the same way for me, so I don't get what the big issue is/was with the fight), the first time the guild has gotten him down as well. I mentioned that for all the horror stories I've heard about the fight, it didn't really seem that bad (we only wiped once because a tank didn't get Hand of Protection to clear stacks and died). The guild had previously wiped some 30+ times (and probably more than that) and had some people leave the guild, get burned out, etc. because they weren't able to kill him. Not being on those runs I have no idea what they were doing wrong, so keep this in mind that as far as I personally am concerned (and I'm on a scrubbish secondary character I haven't done much beyond the minimum with, because I don't play much anymore, not even LFR - I've only done the first wing of ToT and haven't been bothered to do the others yet: Destro Lock, 491 iLevel; I did around 110k DPS, so by no means above average right now) the fight is pretty easy since all it involves is burning adds, and because I'm Destro I can get extra DPS on Horridon via Havoc without attacking him directly.

    The fact remains that guilds like mine are/were stuck there, and if you ask me it's NOT acceptable to be stuck on the second boss of an instance, especially not a large instance. We all like big, Ulduar-style instances, and that's fine, BUT when there's a large instance there needs to be a difficulty curve so the first handful of bosses are undertuned to be deliberately easy and straightforward, so they're basically intended to be quickly farmable for just about everyone; nobody here has stated that I've seen that any run of the mill average guild should be able to go in and clear ToT in a week, or even a month. However, when you hit a wall on early bosses, people give up and don't want to try because it feels like nothing is being accomplished. If that wall was later on in the dungeon, it feels far less devastating and defeating to wipe constantly because you at least know you'll get X many bosses down each week consistently.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-05-29 at 10:56 AM.
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  11. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yes, it is deeply flawed because it goes against your opinion and has all statistics backing it up.
    It was a piece of work that I enjoyed, but it was deeply flawed because it doesn't take any outliers into consideration.

    At all.

    It presents the numbers in a vacuum, tailored to what looks beneficial to your argument, and tosses aside all of the other considerations that need to be made in order to make any of your numbers meaningful.

    In short, they're just numbers. They're not evidence of anything without the proper context.

    If we're talking about the gap between normal mode raids and everything else, we have to look at the trends over a longer period of time and try to find where the peaks and troughs appear. This is basic analysis. When we chart normal-raid participation from tier 1 to tier 15, we see a generally growing curve in participation until a peak in WotLK, then tier 11 (the first of Cataclysm) sees this participation rate drop.

    Dramatically.

    This is where the analysis begins; any large deviation from accepted norms needs to have a reason. Every other reason presented for this drop is either something that's been present throughout the entire time and is therefore basically a control, or is self-contradictory. The only thing that can't be logically dismissed as the biggest contributing factor to this drop is the difficulty of raiding since Cataclysm and, funnily enough, even the Lead Systems Designer has outright stated that this is the case.

    You've spent a lot of time arguing for your piece of work, but all you've done is present a series of numbers and shoved your argument on top.

    That's why it's hopelessly flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I have been asking around a lot of the subject with people that raided since BC and WotLK. And the general consensus seems to be that normals are easier/as easy as ever. Never heard anyone say that they are hard and most people have agreed that they were a lot harder in t11,t10,t8
    I think we've all done that, and my anecdotal evidence is to the contrary. The vast majority of people I've spoken to conclude that normal mode raiding is now much harder and much more punitive than ever before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Now this is of course no evidence of anything, just a small census poll with small sample size. However, neither do you have any evidence that normals are harder than ever. The fact that normals are getting cleared faster and faster and faster each tier by the HC guilds should incline the opposite.
    Like I said, you're not analysing the data - you're just bringing up numbers and drawing an illogical conclusion from them.

    If you were to, say, look at the number of pulls it took Kil'jaeden to fall, and then look at the number of pulls it took to kill Lei Shen, you'd start to see a more meaningful comparison. We'd then have to compare a group of people playing for approximately the same amount of time when they approached this content, and with roughly the same level of commitment. We'd then have to toss in the added complexity of class mechanics to this mix, and provide similar competitive environments. This is excruciatingly difficult to do, of course.

    Anyway, in order for your premise to be logically valid, it cannot be invalidated by even a single contradiction; but it is. Heroic guilds are now spending significantly more time per day during the progression race than they ever have, which means your conclusion is dropped to meaninglessness because it doesn't factor this notion in at all.

    I'm sorry, I appreciated what you were trying to do and tried to imply that, but you've effectively forced me to point out how bad your piece of work really is with your little "goes against your argument" quip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    The question also is, how do you balance a boss to be a perfect entry level boss? Stone Guards required about 5 people knowing what they are doing to be able to 5 man on release in 463 gear. Jin'Rokh can probably be 6-7 manned with a team knowing what they are doing in 489 gear.

    So, how loosely should a boss be tuned to make it 'acceptable' as an entry boss? Current entry bosses require people to play at 50-70% of their class. Even less if they are LFR geared, which everyone and their mother is. So how easily tuned do a boss need to be?
    See, this is a great question. It's difficult to properly answer, and depends largely on what you think an opening boss should be.

    For me, there are a few things to start with:

    1) No more than one mechanic for each raider to expect to handle.
    2) No berserk, either hard or soft.
    3) No random targeted mechanics.
    4) No mechanics that wipe a raid for one person making a mistake.

    All of these points are arguable, of course, but even Jin'rokh manages to break three of them with his soft berserk, randomly targeted spells and the conductive puddles. Horridon... Well, as we know, it breaks all four and that's not even considering tuning.

    As for tuning, do you honestly think expecting new players to be playing their class at 70% is reasonable? I say there's two chances of that; slim and none, and slim just walked off. Given that 100% is the top hundred, and the difference between them and the rest of us is (in some cases) more than double, do you honestly think a new player that's gotten to 90 is going to be over 40% efficiency? I just don't see it. It'd require lots of outside study, mods, more study of boss mechanics, a decent connection/rig and a bucket load of practice.

    Newly dinged 90's just ain't gonna bring that.
    Last edited by The Caretaker; 2013-05-29 at 11:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  12. #932
    I just have a question, just how many wipes and hours are is this "gap" able to handle?
    This is probably the biggest variable here.

    You can still raid with friends, if you're dying to the first boss you're still raiding. The problem is you aren't making progress.... in the time they see fit.

  13. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    I just have a question, just how many wipes and hours are is this "gap" able to handle?
    This is probably the biggest variable here.

    You can still raid with friends, if you're dying to the first boss you're still raiding. The problem is you aren't making progress.... in the time they see fit.
    Yeah, could be. I'm inclined to think it's more nuanced than that, though.

    I think players can actually put up with a lot of wipes if they feel, collectively, that they're getting somewhere. Let's say, for arguments sake, that 30 wipes on Horridon looks like this:

    1 to 5 wipes = door one.
    5 to 10 wipes = door two.
    10 to 15 wipes = door three.
    15 to 20 wipes = door four.
    20 to 25 wipes = War God Jalak.
    25 to 30 wipes = Horridon's 'enrage'.

    Now, another guild, looks like this:

    1 to 15 wipes = door one.
    15 to 30 wipes = door two.

    I'd imagine it's pretty safe to say that the 31st pull will happen for group 1 and far less likely for group 2 who, in reality, probably gave up far earlier. Neither guild is statistically more successful than the other, while the first group has also been raiding for a lot longer time because their pulls are longer. I think the key for the encounter designers is to try and avoid making encounters that start harder than they finish early in an instance (OHAI HALFUS), because I personally feel players will stick with something longer if they feel they're actually getting somewhere.

    Obviously, this isn't very easy. :x
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  14. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I'd imagine it's pretty safe to say that the 31st pull will happen for group 1 and far less likely for group 2 who, in reality, probably gave up far earlier. Neither guild is statistically more successful than the other, while the first group has also been raiding for a lot longer time because their pulls are longer. I think the key for the encounter designers is to try and avoid making encounters that start harder than they finish early in an instance (OHAI HALFUS), because I personally feel players will stick with something longer if they feel they're actually getting somewhere.
    This is the biggest thing, bigger than this "gap" argument that is going nowhere. Players will stick and keep trying if they feel they're making progress. If they aren't, people get disgruntled and burned out and don't want to bother showing up. Like I've been saying, you could appease the "scrub" guilds by having the first few bosses be little better than loot pinatas (like around Marrowgar/Morchok difficulty, with differing mechanics obviously), designed to be gotten quickly on farm within a handful of lockouts. Then you have the harder bosses. The "I want a challenge" crowd gets harder bosses, and have the easier bosses for the fun "Hey let's screw around before we get serious" moments, or to bring alts/friends that don't normally raid and then swap them out later. The average/scrub guilds can do some progress and down a couple of bosses, and then if they can't down the harder boss it's not such a huge deal because they know they can consistently get to Boss #6 every week, instead of Boss #2 within an hour or whatever and spend the rest of their raid night wiping, and everyone logs off feeling like they wasted their time.
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  15. #935
    The problem i see with this gap, is the vast amount of abilities bosses have these days combined with the lack of an entry raid.

    TBC and Wrath both had entry raids that started off easier and got harder as they progressed.
    Cata changed all that by being as hard as ICC was right out of the gate in its first tier and its a philosophy that has continued through MOP.

    These days there is so much aoe and graphical effects going on in a fight, so many mechanics many people find it hard to see what is going on and fail at mechanics.

    Today normal modes are getting harder than older top tier content was and its driving people out of raiding because it isn't fun.

  16. #936
    I agree with people that said that ToT should have a difficulty curve, because Jin'rokh is so easy and Horridon in comparison super hard, and Twin consort again so easy that I felt like Blizzard just wanted to give us their loot without challenge. So in my idea, changing the bosses around would probably be the best option - I know, it would screw up the storyline but hey

    Being in a guild that has cleared all MoP content on at least normal, I can't see the gap myself, but I do think that everyone who just dinged 90 should probably do tons of dailies and T14 raids to get used to their class and the requirements of the new expansion and then progress onto ToT whenever they're ready. I believe that if you are not willing to put in the time and effort it needs to prepare yourself than you shouldn't be raiding - I know it sounds harsh but it wouldn't be right either to take all the fun out for the guilds that have cleared ToT on normal and find the difficulty appropriate.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    The problem i see with this gap, is the vast amount of abilities bosses have these days combined with the lack of an entry raid.

    TBC and Wrath both had entry raids that started off easier and got harder as they progressed.
    Cata changed all that by being as hard as ICC was right out of the gate in its first tier and its a philosophy that has continued through MOP.

    These days there is so much aoe and graphical effects going on in a fight, so many mechanics many people find it hard to see what is going on and fail at mechanics.

    Today normal modes are getting harder than older top tier content was and its driving people out of raiding because it isn't fun.
    And thats probably what is really missing some easy entry raid for people who want to start raiding. And raids getting harder through the expansion after that.
    LFR is not that platform. You do not connect with other people on your realm, like you would in a pug. And you will still have to search for a guild or group anyways to start normal modes.

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You're ignoring what this whole post was about.

    The gap.

    Raiding has never been harder than it is now, while the rest of the game has (arguably) never been easier. That's why the raiding jump is wiping people out, because the gap is too big.

    46 pages and you still don't get this?

    That's absolutely staggering.
    lol
    my point was is there was no fucking gap because there was just one level of raids, either you could do it or had to gtfo. Nowdays you have 3 difficulity choices and people are still crying there is no niche for them. Thats fucking staggering.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  19. #939
    High Overlord braayden's Avatar
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    Yes, we had one level of raids back then. We also had a tier of heroic dungeons underneath where you could actually die if you went retarding in, meaning you had to learn what those now dusty buttons in your spellbook did. We had "training mode" guilds raiding every tier right til the end of TBC; meaning you could start in Kara and progress to a guild going into Sunwell, as I did. We had content underneath the raids that actually prepared the then-modern playerbase for the demands of their roles. Even levelling up then carried the risk of actually being killed.
    None of that is comparable to what we have now.
    LFR is essentially mongo-proof and teaches no player how to play. Said brand new player (this means they didn't play the same length of time as us - a point people keep overlooking) gets themselves to 502 perhaps having been a decent way up the damage meter in LFR and thinks "Oh yeah man, this raiding thing is obviously easy mode lol". They get into a guild raiding normals that is full of people like them who've never known what wiping for weeks was like. What they know is that bosses live five minutes and drop loot. They go to Horridon and they die. A lot. They play a class with utility, but nobody ever told them how that utility could be, well, utilised. If they never learn this, how are they ever going to be good enough to join one of your guilds when your good player finally gives up and needs replaced?

    Forgiving 10 man normal mode content, in WOTLK at least, was a way for people who maybe weren't quite 25 man level to get a few bosses down and progress their characters. They absolutely can't do this now - me personally I get properly hacked off several times a raid at the stupid things people I play with do. Things we could probably have gotten away with if normals were tuned a bit lighter. The average 10 man guild wipes to Horridon. The average 25 man guild wipes to Lei Shen. Balanced?
    Braayden
    Steve Dalton of Enlightened Industries - EVE Online

  20. #940
    We are a normal 10 man raiding guild and we are sat at 5/12n. We raid for 5-6 hours a week and are slowly but surely making progress. We have people away week to week but keep the core players together as much as possible, we have up to tortos on farm and are still getting used to magera. Are we thinking its too hard? no! We killed 1-3 pre-nerf and enjoyed it.

    What do I think should come between LFR and Normals? NOTHING, but hard work and skill. I was a TBC 25 man raider and learnt to raid, I try and pass that on to our 3rd 10 man raid team and those wanting to raid and am writing a guild guide to raiding, so these inexperienced players know what it takes to step up to normal raiding and that should not be gear, it should be preparation. If they are prepared and the raid leader is prepared, it then comes down to practice and a good mental attitude. Spending weeks in SSC wiping on bosses was fun and I dont mind it in ToT.

    There are plenty of ways to get higher gear that LFR, be that through Hc Scenarios, VP, etc. which will help players progress instead of waiting for raid bosses.

    On what Blizz were looking to do with LFR (let non-raiders see raiding) I feel it has been a success. The people in the groups may ruin it for some, but others get to see it, that never would. If they have no interest in Normal raiding, why add a new tier for them to complain about saying it is too far from Normal, or takes too long, or looks the same as LFR. People will always complain.

    My only complaint about LFR is that you actually get to kill the final boss in the raid on that level before most normal raiding guilds (this includes me, who does LFR until my gear has surpassed it to maximise my output in normals). So when i eventually kill Garrosh, hopefully before the patch is out of date, I will have seen the end cinematic, the party, etc and feel a little deflated when I earn it on normal. I think the final boss in LFR should have a lich king style "you all die" ability at 5%, but then the raid be rescued by Vol'jin or Thrall and pulled back to life and rewarded with a cache of loot. Then 4 weeks from end of tier, switch to the proper ending so LFR raiders get to see it too, maybe even add higher than LFR gear at this point, as a reward for their patience.

    Overall, I like that Normal 10 is hard and same as 25, as we are on a low horde pop server, I like that Heroic raiding IS heroic and not an entitlement and I like that LFR is there for non-normal/heroic raiders and has utility to progression raiders too, be that for legnedary quest progression, VP or some gear.

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