View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Because it's the base tier, designed to be done in heroic blues? 5 Mans were your easier older content.
    I believe the intent was to put lesser guilds into LFR, not back into heroic 5 mans. Of course this led the people in those guilds to wonder just what they were getting for being in their guilds. LFR/LFD + daily grind led to not much time for (or interest in) group content with the guild.
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  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You should be taking people that are around 463 item level and boosting them through T14N, then. Why? LFR is completely optional.
    We actually have. But why should we bother going back to boost someone that we do not even know is a good player? When we brought in players that we know, damn this guy is a good player, we have taken him back and geared him up.

    Though why take that step for Randal the Random. Why bring in a guy that got 0 raiding experience, 0 gear and does not appear to have any knowledge of his class, take the time of 9 other people that gains nothing of it to gear up Randal with the hopes that he turns out to be good?

    Instead Randal can gear up his own character as it is not that hard to find T14 pugs and T15 pugs.

    It is not up to the recruiter to show the recruitee why to join the guild, the recruitee needs to show why to bring him. If he shows no knowledge of his class, raiding and gear, why bring him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    How do you guys judge skill?
    This is a tricky one. Generally a combination of previous guilds, previous raid experience, how well he has gemmed/reforged. We always check for old logs from that player. When in doubt, bring him with for 5 mans / challenge mode / lfr / trial raid and just test him out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Because you're the one recruiting? Either you want to take players to fill the roster, or you don't want to take players to fill the roster. Not both.
    You want people that fit into that roster ofc. I would never apply to a guild when I know I can not make their raid times.
    Again, it is up to the raider to fit into the guild, not the guild to fit the raider. If the guild doesnt fit you, do not apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    You wouldn't worry about having players leaving after two weeks if you lowered your entry requirements.
    How does this make any sense? If they get in they get in, that has nothing to do with the entry requirements. People are leaving because they want to 'trade up', so a lot of people join a guild, get carried and geared up and then apply for the next guild. This is something you want to avoid as a guild of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    More exclusion...
    Yes. Of course. You check previous raiding experience. The less you have the worse it looks. Is it any different applying for anything in real life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Accidents never happen, raid times are perfect for everyone...
    Accidents do happen, I entirely agree with that. Accidents happen more often for some peopel than others. When accidents happen once a week, that is not substainable. Again, raid times. Join a guild that fits your times. Do not expect the guild to fit after yours.
    Do you even realise how douchy you sound right now?
    You expect 9/24 other people to fit their time schedule after yours. And maybe "sorry guys, my friends asked me to go out for a drink at the bar so I can raid tonight!" making the other 9/24 people not able to raid because of you not being there.
    To me it is not even up for debate that it is your duty as a raider to fit your times to your guilds raid. Not the other way around.
    Anything else is very egocentric and bad mannered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    There's a very easy solution.

    Relax the entry requirements, and go back to T14, recruiting players straight out of Heroics and early LFR.
    Why relax the entry requirements? Why bring in raiders that are far worse than the other raiders in a guild? That makes 0 sense. Those players can apply to guilds less progressed with raiders that are more on their level. Like wtf, do you even hear what you are implying?
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding to go back to trade chat, attempt to find some good player even though you have no way of telling who is good and bad and go back into T14 and gear him up."
    How well do you think that flies?

    Again my point is, it is 10x harder now than a few years ago to find a player that is a good fit into a guild as raiders have gotten worse and are less inclined to put effort into their playing.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #1003
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    We actually have. But why should we bother going back to boost someone that we do not even know is a good player? When we brought in players that we know, damn this guy is a good player, we have taken him back and geared him up.

    Though why take that step for Randal the Random. Why bring in a guy that got 0 raiding experience, 0 gear and does not appear to have any knowledge of his class, take the time of 9 other people that gains nothing of it to gear up Randal with the hopes that he turns out to be good?
    .
    because you are the one who wants HC level raiders.

    Why should everyone else have their game made pointlessly difficult so a few thousand HC hardcores can have a slightly easier time recruiting? Pure entitlement thinking!
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  4. #1004
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    That is simply not true. The players who get in likely need to be geared up by the group, having more people to gear up doesn't make someone leaving any less damaging.
    This is countered by the fact that there are thousands more people that need gearing up than you couldn't possibly not replace within 2 weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I think knowing your class basically means being aware of your spells and what they do. Optimising the rotation to get an extra 1% dps isn't what is being asked. Essentially, it's playing with the mechanics the developpers intended you to use.
    So, FFB spam on my Arcane Mage is fine because it's something the devs intended me to use (it procs Arcane Missiles and replaces Scorch)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Sure, recruitment took a nose-dive. But in my opinion that is because of this LFR/Normal gap. There's no real place to skill up as a new player. Players who clear Normal bosses expect decent raiders, so that's a no go. LFR and dungeons are worthless. Pugs will kick you for not being decent unles they themselves are bad. If a new player wants to learn, he'll have to endure unsuccesful pugs or guild hop from bad guild to less bad guilds that are little more than pugs anyway. If no content prepares anyone for raiding, can you really blame them for thinking they are ready for it?
    I think the LFR-Normal gap has nothing to do with the reason recruitment took a nose-dive. The attitude of those that are raiding is self-harming. Blizzard fixed this self-harming attitude that was killing raiding (that is, the percentage of raiders that saw content was drastically falling) by rushing in and introducing LFR. If Blizzard really care about Normal raiding participation then they'll go the same way: LFR10N.
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  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    because you are the one who wants HC level raiders.

    Why should everyone else have their game made pointlessly difficult so a few thousand HC hardcores can have a slightly easier time recruiting? Pure entitlement thinking!
    Did you even read what you replied to?

    It is Randal Random that wants to join a heroic guild, it is his job to be on par with what you expect from a heroic raider.

    To presume that 9/24 other people should carry, that is entitlement thinking. Not thinking that the 1 new player should be on par with the others in the guild.

    Are you honestly that full of yourself that you think 1 player should make the life suck for another 9? You got some entitlement issues.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-05-29 at 05:59 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #1006
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    So, FFB spam on my Arcane Mage is fine because it's something the devs intended me to use (it procs Arcane Missiles and replaces Scorch)?
    The devs don't intend FFB spam. The core abilities tab(although kinda barebones and outdated) is a good indication of what the Devs intend. Most of the time you can figure out the priority system yourself just from reading your spec's passives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Again my point is, it is 10x harder now than a few years ago to find a player that is a good fit into a guild as raiders have gotten worse and are less inclined to put effort into their playing.
    You get worse applicants because of the LFR/Normal gap. Try to see it through the eyes of a freshly dinged new player. You've been levelling in LFD most of the time and now you see LFR. You go in, see content, get gear and overall you think you're pretty good at this because of how easy it is. Then you try to get into a Normal guild because that is the progression path set for you by blizzard and it's very obvious to see. Either you get denied from every good guild or you wipe with every bad guild/pug. What do you do? You tell yourself you're not cut for that and either leave or stay in LFR as you believe that is your appropriate difficulty. Or, you endure the whole thing and guild-hop until you get somewhere decent, but that's not a reflex a new player would have.

    Ultimately, having the current raid of the tier available with a 10% nerf would help worse guilds progress and carry these new guys. Once they are done with Entry mode, they will either want to progress into Normal(for which they have now been prepared) or stay in Entry mode. And once he's not satisfied with Normal, he'll try Heroic. This is a much more fluid difficulty progression path and I think it would ultimately be healthy for the game.

  7. #1007
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    This is countered by the fact that there are thousands more people that need gearing up than you couldn't possibly not replace within 2 weeks.


    So, FFB spam on my Arcane Mage is fine because it's something the devs intended me to use (it procs Arcane Missiles and replaces Scorch)?


    I think the LFR-Normal gap has nothing to do with the reason recruitment took a nose-dive. The attitude of those that are raiding is self-harming. Blizzard fixed this self-harming attitude that was killing raiding (that is, the percentage of raiders that saw content was drastically falling) by rushing in and introducing LFR. If Blizzard really care about Normal raiding participation then they'll go the same way: LFR10N.
    I agree with that last statement. The general raiding and PVE community as a whole is highly exclusionary to a fault, where it's near impossible for anyone new to really get much of anywhere. People deny this, but you back them into a corner, they'll essentially admit it :x Then act like it's not a problem.

    ....and then complain about the lack of raiders, and demand absurd things, like the removal of LFR.

    If anything is harming WoW's raiding base, it's that that normal raids are made for raiders. People who have been raiding, and LFR is for everyone else. People who don't think that creates a gap are kind of warped in their view on things. The game pretty much sets up new players for disappointment and failure, and teaches them sort of, how to play "wrong".

    But anyways, I think It'd probably help a bit if they'd let guilds manually select the LFR difficulty when they do raids, have the LFR quality loot, LFR difficulty, but the normal loot distribution rules any other actual raid would have, and no determination debuff. I think a large amount of the people vocal about this stuff just want stuff to do with their guild, that's only with their guild, but don't exactly want a tier of challenge that's not what they were acclimated to while getting to the end of the game.
    Last edited by Otiswhitaker; 2013-05-29 at 06:00 PM.

  8. #1008
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Did you even read what you replied to?=
    Yeah.
    It is Randal Random that wants to join a heroic guild, it is his job to be on par with what you expect from a heroic raider.
    No. If you want raiders to your own spec, you should be making them.
    To presume that 9/24 other people should carry, that is entitlement thinking. Not thinking that the 1 new player should be on par with the others in the guild.
    You are asking several million other players to carry your raid.
    Are you honestly that full of yourself that you think 1 player should make the life suck for another 9? You got some entitlement issues.
    Are you honestly so full of yourself that you think several million other people should have a less than stellar experience just so your own raid group can recruit slightly easier.

    Pure entitlement thinking from you.
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  9. #1009
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Why relax the entry requirements? Why bring in raiders that are far worse than the other raiders in a guild? That makes 0 sense. Those players can apply to guilds less progressed with raiders that are more on their level. Like wtf, do you even hear what you are implying?
    Yes. I'm implying that as subs have dropped, the amount of raiders that you want have dropped by around the same percentage. As such, you're being squeezed by the end of the bell curve of players and skill/gear/etc. There's no raiders left to recruit. The only remaining options are:

    *to move closer to the average and fill up the roster,
    *poach players from other guilds within your specified required area under the bell curve,
    *move server, or
    *disband.

    Your choice (at least until the subs pick up).

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding to go back to trade chat, attempt to find some good player even though you have no way of telling who is good and bad and go back into T14 and gear him up."
    How well do you think that flies?
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding and go back to T14 with these new guys, we need more people for the roster", or,
    "Yeah guys, lets start talking to players in other guilds tonight and get them to come to our guild to raid with us instead of their guild", or,
    "Yeah guys, lets all go to this server because our current server is dead, you're footing your own transfers though", or
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding permanently, there's no-one left anywhere to fill the roster and we're too good to take anyone less than us".

    The only thing I think will go down well is option 1. Option 2 is just terrible for the guild's reputation, option 3 is just asking for the guild to split anyway, and option 4 is just a quick-and-dirty way to get to the same conclusion as option 3.

    So, yeah. I think it'd go down really well!
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  10. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    But five-mans are(currently) neither fun, engaging, difficult or a preparation for raiding. That's the point I was illustrating in that post. You can't justify Normals being too hard for worse guilds because they can run the nerfed last tier if there is no last tier. Therefore locking these guilds out of content for the entire first tier of the expansion. Same thing would apply to the last tier, since it won't be nerfed until there's a few months left to MoP and the content won't really matter anyway.
    But the first tier wasn't hard, so you can't really say the players had no where to go back to in preparation. If you couldn't do T14, which many players did in heroic blues, then... I'd argue that raiding just isn't for you. Flat out.

  11. #1011
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    The devs don't intend FFB spam. The core abilities tab(although kinda barebones and outdated) is a good indication of what the Devs intend. Most of the time you can figure out the priority system yourself just from reading your spec's passives.
    Any spell can proc Arcane Missiles, so FFB is intended. Arcane Missiles is in the core abilities tab.

    Mage bombs aren't in the core abilities tab, and hence aren't ever supposed to be used.

    Pick one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Ultimately, having the current raid of the tier available with a 10% nerf would help worse guilds progress and carry these new guys. Once they are done with Entry mode, they will either want to progress into Normal(for which they have now been prepared) or stay in Entry mode. And once he's not satisfied with Normal, he'll try Heroic. This is a much more fluid difficulty progression path and I think it would ultimately be healthy for the game.
    Having an LFR10N mode that sits between LFR and Normal would get far more exposure and would (hopefully) give an achievement that raiding guilds would actually value, such that recruitment would be a whole lot easier.
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  12. #1012
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    But the first tier wasn't hard, so you can't really say the players had no where to go back to in preparation. If you couldn't do T14, which many players did in heroic blues, then... I'd argue that raiding just isn't for you. Flat out.


    First tier was brutal. Check the attrition rate, even amongst those who could hack the stone guards.
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  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I think the LFR-Normal gap has nothing to do with the reason recruitment took a nose-dive. The attitude of those that are raiding is self-harming. Blizzard fixed this self-harming attitude that was killing raiding (that is, the percentage of raiders that saw content was drastically falling) by rushing in and introducing LFR. If Blizzard really care about Normal raiding participation then they'll go the same way: LFR10N.

    I don't know about other heroic guilds, but we wouldn't, and don't, take people fresh out of LFR. It does nothing for us. We take players that are around the same level of experience. Each expansion, you get your progress reset, and a new chance (if you're actually as good as you think you are) to join a guild at the start.

    Adding LFR isn't giving heroic guilds any additional players to recruit from, not by a long shot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    First tier was brutal. Check the attrition rate, even amongst those who could hack the stone guards.

    But gear =! skill !!! The mantra of the casual! Everyone was on equal ground as far as gear, and they always are, at the start of the expansion. There's nothing more they can do to help people out in getting started.

  14. #1014
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Adding LFR isn't giving heroic guilds any additional players to recruit from, not by a long shot.
    LFR wasn't meant for heroic guilds when it was added. It was meant to keep raiding going as something Blizzard should create for its subs, due to the tiny exposure of Firelands.
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  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding and go back to T14 with these new guys, we need more people for the roster", or,
    "Yeah guys, lets start talking to players in other guilds tonight and get them to come to our guild to raid with us instead of their guild", or,
    "Yeah guys, lets all go to this server because our current server is dead, you're footing your own transfers though", or
    "Yeah guys, lets stop our ToT H raiding permanently, there's no-one left anywhere to fill the roster and we're too good to take anyone less than us".
    Other than the last two isn't that how it worked in the "golden age" aka TBC? Poach from other guilds or halt progression and go back to older content.

    Still the attitude of so many here just stinks. "If you can't clear it maybe raiding isn't for you". Yeah that's a good way to piss players off.
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  16. #1016
    Could be nice if LFR was a little more challenging, for now it's just boring.

  17. #1017
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post




    But gear =! skill !!! The mantra of the casual! Everyone was on equal ground as far as gear, and they always are, at the start of the expansion. There's nothing more they can do to help people out in getting started.
    If everyone is on an equal footing and 75% of the people trying normal mode fail, then there is something wrong with normal mode, not the people.
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  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    I wanna see how can you predict direction of attenuation on HoF 1st boss by sound, Overwhelming Strike on HoF 2nd boss, the whole horrible dance thing in MSV last boss, Horridon's Triple Puncture, and so on. It probably worked well in WotLK, as there was only boss fight which was designed around having DBM - LK (Shadow Traps and Valkyr/Defile timers). But now DBM is a must, as most fights are designed around having such addon, as well as blizzard went overboard with timing and reaction.
    I don't know - maybe look at boss cast bar?
    and addons for will of emperor dance? really? you have clear indication where hit is going to land.

  19. #1019
    Herald of the Titans crakerjack's Avatar
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    If people can't even do normal raiding... why should I care about them? Their level of skill is way lower than mine so I never have to worry about them... not to mention bad players make PvP more fun. Everyone is ripping on bad players, but would WoW really be fun if everyone was skilled? Not really. It's not my fault people don't know their classes and use only their pve rotation rather than every ability that their class possesses.

    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  20. #1020
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    I don't know about other heroic guilds, but we wouldn't, and don't, take people fresh out of LFR. It does nothing for us. We take players that are around the same level of experience. Each expansion, you get your progress reset, and a new chance (if you're actually as good as you think you are) to join a guild at the start.

    Adding LFR isn't giving heroic guilds any additional players to recruit from, not by a long shot.





    But gear =! skill !!! The mantra of the casual! Everyone was on equal ground as far as gear, and they always are, at the start of the expansion. There's nothing more they can do to help people out in getting started.
    So, your idea of "equal footing" is being there at the very beginning of an expansion, or be screwed?

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