View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The word normal.


    T14 isn't easy, it's still difficult.
    So no source of information, only your own opinion. Okay so can call that bullshit then.

    T14 isnt easy? Yeah... it is very hard... I agree... We almost could not 5 man MSV.
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    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    That's exactly what I stated though, that LFR is only there to see the content.
    Then maybe we need to go back to the Wrath model of raiding, it seemed to be the pinnacle of raiding in World of Warcraft history. Everybody and there mom seemed to be raiding at least something back then, whether it be 10m ToC all the way to H ICC.
    The problem with going back to that model is that there is such a thing as hardcore 10-man now. Forcing them to somehow get enough people to go 25 isn't fair.

  3. #1043
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    That's exactly what I stated though, that LFR is only there to see the content.
    Then maybe we need to go back to the Wrath model of raiding, it seemed to be the pinnacle of raiding in World of Warcraft history. Everybody and there mom seemed to be raiding at least something back then, whether it be 10m ToC all the way to H ICC.
    That's because of the tuning of normal modes = i.e. they were doable with pugs, using only a few lines of text, no voip etc.

    As other people have pointed out, on wows current trajectory there will be method doing heroics and everyone else in LFR.
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  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Like Hexz touched on, raiding T14 is the difficulty between LFR and Normal T15, as well as the bridge for the gear gap. I know of far too many friends and family guilds that failed in T14 at Normal Garalon and never got past that and then tried immediately progressing in to ToT normals in their mostly normal MSV gear. While it's possible to down Normal ToT in that gear, they clearly aren't the most skilled of raid groups if they got stuck on normal Garalon but the fact remains that they don't want to go back to that content even though it's now the desired difficulty they seek.

    Farming Normal/Heroic HoF and ToES for a couple weeks will do WONDERS for the friends and family normal guilds out there getting their asses kicked in normal ToT. People just don't see that.

    Everyone kicked and screamed for TBC-like progression to come back and for the most part they got it. Now they're mad that they can't clear current content when they haven't even finished the previous tier. Just like all the people that were mad they were getting stomped in Black Temple when they had only killed 4 bosses in SSC and TK combined.
    You make an excellent point. Guilds seem more willing to bang their head on the blocking new boss than to return to the previous tier's heroics.

    Consider, though, that with limited time to raid, LFR gear is *almost* as good and is current tier. LFR can also be done whenever is convenient. So why take raid time to kill old heroics if their gear is only slightly better than LFR, which does not require raid time as a guild?

    I guess this is only a good strategy as a guild before LFR is fully released. For that month or so, continue to progress on old heroics until your ilvl lets you push through the early-blocking boss in the current tier.

    Then again, if you read my previous post in this forum, http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...7#post21162077, I would like to see early-blocking bosses removed altogether.

  5. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So no source of information, only your own opinion. Okay so can call that bullshit then.
    nom, the word normal means average and average would mean average players could complete tiers within the timeframe they exist.
    T14 isnt easy? Yeah... it is very hard... I agree... We almost could not 5 man MSV.
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  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    For close knit 10m guilds they can try to progress on bosses in Normal, but LFR is still there to see the content.

    Point you were trying to make?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 12:29 PM ----------



    If people keep telling others to just quit, then the game won't become any better. It'll become progressively worse over time.
    his point is probably that back in wrath, 10 man normal mode was significantly easier and still represented a challenge. Even though it was beer league.

    Besides 10 man normal mode was a social thing. LFR is well extremely anti-social.

    And generally 10 man normal mode was a better starting point for people to get into raiding than LFR is now a days. Than some moron got the idea to make 10 and 25 man share a lockout and off course 10 and 25 man schould get the same rewards--> same difficulty and that basicly killed the content for those 10 man guilds.

    And well one thing you can't say about t11 was that it was a new MC, karazhan or naxx v2.0. And to be honest t14 is not really some easy starter lets introduce new players to normal raiding raid^^

    What new raiders imo need is a raid of some difficulty, where they can learn the ropes and get a bloody nose if they fuck up. And LFR sucks for that it is just a loot pinata. At least in the old 10 man normal mode someone might take you under his wings and give you some pointers, new LFR world, I do not give a fuck about new players they are from other realms and we are gonna win anyway.

    Cata was not so bad in the beginning, but I would have to say that recruitment became a bitch after that change. New people would go to 10 man pugs and run away scared and never get probably introduced to raiding. Basicly the feeding chain has taken a blow after the change and LFR was just a terrible idea.

    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?

  7. #1047
    Its all about the ilevels of the epics now. First people were fine doing LFR to get epics but now they see that better gear drops in normal and feel that they should get this to. At the same time, people really dont want to improve theyre gamestyle. They want to continue like they did in LFR(join raid, attack boss, it dies, roll for loot).

    Some people here have said you need to be a maniac theorycrafter or spend hours upon hours reading up on your class and watch videos of boss fights. You really, really dont need to. To clear normal you just need to know wich buttons to click when(a OK rotation), spend 5 minutes checking what gems/enchants to go for, dont stand in bad stuff and be able to communicate with others on ventrilo/mumble.

    Believe me, if normal modes were nerfed to hell today and made it roflstomp easy for everyone, there would be threads like this on mmo-champion not long after saying "heroic mode is to hard for the average player" and so on.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 07:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    his point is probably that back in wrath, 10 man normal mode was significantly easier and still represented a challenge. Even though it was beer league.

    Besides 10 man normal mode was a social thing. LFR is well extremely anti-social.

    And generally 10 man normal mode was a better starting point for people to get into raiding than LFR is now a days. Than some moron got the idea to make 10 and 25 man share a lockout and off course 10 and 25 man schould get the same rewards--> same difficulty and that basicly killed the content for those 10 man guilds.

    And well one thing you can't say about t11 was that it was a new MC, karazhan or naxx v2.0. And to be honest t14 is not really some easy starter lets introduce new players to normal raiding raid^^

    What new raiders imo need is a raid of some difficulty, where they can learn the ropes and get a bloody nose if they fuck up. And LFR sucks for that it is just a loot pinata. At least in the old 10 man normal mode someone might take you under his wings and give you some pointers, new LFR world, I do not give a fuck about new players they are from other realms and we are gonna win anyway.

    Cata was not so bad in the beginning, but I would have to say that recruitment became a bitch after that change. New people would go to 10 man pugs and run away scared and never get probably introduced to raiding. Basicly the feeding chain has taken a blow after the change and LFR was just a terrible idea.

    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?
    I kind of agree with you. The shared lockout with 10/25 is making alot of problems here. At this point though, I think it would hurt alot of 10 man guilds if blizz were to revert this again and make them not share lockout. Suddenly alot of 10 man guilds must recruit new players for proper content(25) and not do faceroll 10 man.

    First mistake was to share lockout. Second mistake was introducing LFR.

    Maybe just do this.... Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear.
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  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    Its all about the ilevels of the epics now. First people were fine doing LFR to get epics but now they see that better gear drops in normal and feel that they should get this to. At the same time, people really dont want to improve theyre gamestyle. They want to continue like they did in LFR(join raid, attack boss, it dies, roll for loot).

    Some people here have said you need to be a maniac theorycrafter or spend hours upon hours reading up on your class and watch videos of boss fights. You really, really dont need to. To clear normal you just need to know wich buttons to click when(a OK rotation), spend 5 minutes checking what gems/enchants to go for, dont stand in bad stuff and be able to communicate with others on ventrilo/mumble.

    Believe me, if normal modes were nerfed to hell today and made it roflstomp easy for everyone, there would be threads like this on mmo-champion not long after saying "heroic mode is to hard for the average player" and so on.
    Yes, but you can legitmately say that heroics are made for the top end of players, which you can't do with normal modes.

    Theres a big clue in the names of these things. Imagine making a suit that you claimed was for a normal person, but actually it would only fit someone 3 foot 6 tall. Any insistence that it was a normal suit most right thinking people would just laugh at. So it is with normal raids in wow. They clearly aren't for the average or normal player at all.
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  9. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    FFB is not intended in anyway and no one could rationally justify it ever.
    The same way Scorch was and it was left untouched for a whole patch cycle? Get to 4 stacks of Arcane Charge, burn missiles, Scorch to generate charges, otherwise ABar, is now exactly the same but with FFB instead of Scorch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Both ideas are essentially the same.
    Your idea did not imply a queuing system like LFD and LFR. Apologies.
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  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, but you can legitmately say that heroics are made for the top end of players, which you can't do with normal modes.

    Theres a big clue in the names of these things. Imagine making a suit that you claimed was for a normal person, but actually it would only fit someone 3 foot 6 tall. Any insistence that it was a normal suit most right thinking people would just laugh at. So it is with normal raids in wow. They clearly aren't for the average or normal player at all.

    Dont you think it has something to do with the mentality of the players? Do most of the people in this game wish to be good or do they just want to suck? Or is the game doing such a bad job making sure players gets how to play his class and how mechanics work in this game?

    I remember "back in the wow days" that all the people I knew in the game understood they would have to improve themself and do what they could if they wanted to beat content. If you wanted to suck, thats fine but you would not be able to do everything.

    With LFR you are able to suck as much as you want. You can be a warrior who gems spirit, its ok, the boss will die anyway.

    Do people want to be bad, or are they just bad cause they cant figure out HOW to improve? Maybe they dont want to improve?
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  11. #1051
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Source of information?

    It used to be 25% for last tier, now only 28% of guilds are clearing ToT (7534/26171). That number should be around 13k (50% clear): as it stands, Ji-kun should be the end boss, not Lei Shen. ToT is currently two tiers rolled into one with only one tier of gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So, we got LFR that is barely even counts as content. We got T14 that is easy. We got normals that require medium effort and we get heroic for a challenge. Why remove the medium effort mode? Makes no sense.
    Currently T14 isn't easy. Otherwise we'd see a greater than 28% clear rate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?
    LFR, as it has effectively guaranteed high quality raids so long as millions of players see the content.
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  12. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    Dont you think it has something to do with the mentality of the players? '
    Yes, absolutely. Does it matter? Nope. Can blizzard change millions of peoples attitudes towards life? Nope.
    Do most of the people in this game wish to be good or do they just want to suck? Or is the game doing such a bad job making sure players gets how to play his class and how mechanics work in this game?
    Again, does it matter?
    I remember "back in the wow days" that all the people I knew in the game understood they would have to improve themself and do what they could if they wanted to beat content. If you wanted to suck, thats fine but you would not be able to do everything.
    Yes, but what you didn't see was that the sub numbers were made up of people who never even got to max level.
    With LFR you are able to suck as much as you want. You can be a warrior who gems spirit, its ok, the boss will die anyway.
    Right. And these are average players, completely nomal in every way.
    Do people want to be bad, or are they just bad cause they cant figure out HOW to improve? Maybe they dont want to improve?
    They don't give shit, they'll never give a shit and there isn't much reason why they would.

    For some reason people on this forum can't accept this simple fact. Most suggestions cluster around either incentivising people who don't care to someohow magically care or removing all content from them like that wouldn't destroy wows subs base and end all raiding forever anyway.

    People don't care much. Just accept the fact.
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  13. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    [Players] don't give shit, they'll never give a shit and there isn't much reason why they would.
    I agree with this statement. So long as players are having fun, they really don't care that they're doing 4kDPS, or that they're standing in fire, and so on.

    WoW's a game, first and foremost, and looking to improve your character from LFR to Normal shouldn't mean that WoW should stop being fun for them.
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  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post

    It used to be 25% for last tier, now only 28% of guilds are clearing ToT (7534/26171). That number should be around 13k (50% clear): as it stands, Ji-kun should be the end boss, not Lei Shen. ToT is currently two tiers rolled into one with only one tier of gear.


    Currently T14 isn't easy. Otherwise we'd see a greater than 28% clear rate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:11 PM ----------


    LFR, as it has effectively guaranteed high quality raids so long as millions of players see the content.
    Raids where great before LFR was added to the game

    Technicly than the end raid boss for 10 man would be megaera

    Jin'rokh the Breaker (10) 25742 (98.27%)
    Horridon (10) 20020 (76.43%)
    Council of Elders (10) 17700 (67.57%)
    Tortos (10) 15608 (59.59%)
    Megaera (10) 13889 (53.02%)
    Ji-Kun (10) 13030 (49.74%)
    Durumu the Forgotten (10) 11278 (43.06%)
    Primordius (10) 10909 (41.65%)
    Dark Animus (10) 10086 (38.51%)
    Iron Qon (10) 9288 (35.46%)
    Twin Consorts (10) 9095 (34.72%)
    Lei Shen (10) 7146 (27.28%)

    And the endboss for 25 man would be Twin consorts.

    Jin'rokh the Breaker (25) 2147 (96.45%)
    Horridon (25) 1841 (82.70%)
    Council of Elders (25) 1802 (80.95%)
    Tortos (25) 1558 (69.99%)
    Megaera (25) 1539 (69.14%)
    Ji-Kun (25) 1406 (63.16%)
    Durumu the Forgotten (25) 1302 (58.49%)
    Primordius (25) 1294 (58.13%)
    Dark Animus (25) 1241 (55.75%)
    Iron Qon (25) 1171 (52.61%)
    Twin Consorts (25) 1158 (52.02%)
    Lei Shen (25) 923 (41.46%)

    Basicly the remaining 25 man guilds get a heck of a lot longer than the 10 man guilds.

    The numbers are from wowprogress the tier 15 (25) and tier 15 (10) man numbers respectively.

  15. #1055
    So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for? Thats the game everyone wants and needs. With that in mind, why not just remove every piece of stat in the game. Do so that whatever button you click you dps, tank and heal good enough.

    I refuse to accept that fact. I refuse to believe that this game should be made for people doing everything wrong except logging in and mashing buttons without knowing why. IF blizzard should focus 100% on them, they might aswell redesign the whole game and just remove insane hard facts to grasp like dont stand in fire, basic knowledge of what stats is good for you.

    Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together. The endless grind of already done content often dont work out for guilds in the end. People get bored of that to. I like to think that challenges gets people together, via communicating and a wish to contribute to the guild so they can reach goals.

    What do you think of this :
    Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.
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  16. #1056
    Scarab Lord Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Raids where great before LFR was added to the game
    See the following raids:
    *old Naxx that almost no-one saw (prompting a copy for T7)
    *Firelands with similar exposure (prompting LFR to be rushed in befire it was ready)
    *Ruby Sanctum being an Obsidian Sanctum reboot (prompted by ICC lasting far too long)
    *etc.

    I mean, there have been some great raids (Karazhan, Ulduar, ToC, Dragon Soul, and so on), but their exposure was nowhere near that of what LFR is today: by week 5 of Dragon Soul over a million characters had cleared it.
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  17. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    What do you think of this :
    Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.
    How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?
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  18. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for?
    The vast majority either don't gem or don't gem "correctly" (that is, not what EJ/AJ/etc. explicitly state and the more hardcore players take as gospel). Normal modes should be balanced for ungemmed and unenchanted Warriors.

    Please cut the hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together.
    Normal mode ToC. Relatively easy. Guilds stuck together.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    What do you think of this :
    Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.
    What of 10 man Heroic? And does this also mean removing shared lockouts?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?
    How about loot isn't the problem here, only the gaps between difficulties?
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  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?
    Yeah sure. Im just having a hard time getting how Blizzard can balance between 10 man and LFR. What is to hard? What is to easy? What will the difference be between lfr and 10 man? According to posters here, those who do LFR and wish to do 10 man(but its to hard now) is very, very bad. They probably already fail in LFR. What do we do with 10 man then? let it be supereasy as LFR and give it better loot?:S
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  20. #1060
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for? Thats the game everyone wants and needs. With that in mind, why not just remove every piece of stat in the game. Do so that whatever button you click you dps, tank and heal good enough.
    Well, why not?
    I refuse to accept that fact. I refuse to believe that this game should be made for people doing everything wrong except logging in and mashing buttons without knowing why. IF blizzard should focus 100% on them, they might aswell redesign the whole game and just remove insane hard facts to grasp like dont stand in fire, basic knowledge of what stats is good for you.
    You've got heroics modes to play min max RPG hero in. There is space in wow right now for a semi organised experience that is fun for friends but which doesn't require enormous amounts of homework or game knowledge.

    Why you (or anyone else) don't want it to be in the game is a complete and utter mystery to me, really is.
    Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together. The endless grind of already done content often dont work out for guilds in the end. People get bored of that to. I like to think that challenges gets people together, via communicating and a wish to contribute to the guild so they can reach goals.

    What do you think of this :
    Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.
    How about let 10 man drop the best loot, 25 man/heroic modes mog loot and LFR slightly less than 10 man loot.

    If people genuinely seek challenge, they don't need gear.
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