How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Why would you simply kill off the older content?
Why would you want to deprive content from people and force them into the latest tier if they could have as many as three tiers to play through?

This model even supports the addition of a 'tutorial raid' because it could exist on the bottom level and would not have to be added every single tier.

Whether the tiered raiding in is a good model in general is a whole another discussion that would probably require a thread of its own.

The problem is that people are doing content they aren't ready for, spending weeks on Normal Horridon in ilvl 500 gear. They do that because the raid has been released and they can enter it. If they could enter heroic mode, they would probably be trying to do that too.

What they should be doing is hoarding gear in the freshly nerfed t14 heroic modes, but there is nothing in the game making them do that. There needs to be a system which encourages difficulty changes in incremental steps. Something as simple as Blizzard having the ilvl that encounters are balanced around would allow people to recognise that they are facing content that is severely above their level. Add it to the journal, or as a buff notification in the encounter room.

So much of what makes raiding popular is the prestige. The want to be that that guy who has the cool title and the full epic gear. I actually miss those days when I was playing at a much worse level and I had players to look up to. That is what drives lower level players. Remove that and you risk it all.

[NeverStop]

At this point they've pretty much all seen MSV I think but even if they haven't so what? they saw the add on some website for the thunder king thought that was cool and want to go fight him not fight the piddling army of bullshit that exists before him. They aren't interested in your notions about having to go back and do "old crap" when they see the guy in stormwind in full 522s or upgrade heroic thunderforged. They aren't interested in going through hoops for progression. Their is no reason to make older content relevant, because guess what people aren't gonna do it. If older content becomes relevant enough to the point where people would chose to do it it would have to be more relevant than current or new content. That isn't not a good design model by any stretch. It's painfully regressive and punitive and just shuts players out from seeing the new stuff.

So in TBC pre-Sunwell patch, when a new player saw someone with Warglaives, did he immediately try to join a guild that has Black Temple on farm in his dungeon gear?

In the age of LFR, you can do content that can be completed AFK and get gear that has slightly worse stats and a different recolor compared to normal raiding gear.

[Glorious Leader]

The problem is that people are doing content they aren't ready for, spending weeks on Normal Horridon in ilvl 500 gear. They do that because the raid has been released and they can enter it. If they could enter heroic mode, they would probably be trying to do that too.

What they should be doing is hoarding gear in the freshly nerfed t14 heroic modes, but there is nothing in the game making them do that. There needs to be a system which encourages difficulty changes in incremental steps. Something as simple as Blizzard having the ilvl that encounters are balanced around would allow people to recognise that they are facing content that is severely above their level. Add it to the journal, or as a buff notification in the encounter room.

So much of what makes raiding popular is the prestige. The want to be that that guy who has the cool title and the full epic gear. I actually miss those days when I was playing at a much worse level and I had players to look up to. That is what drives lower level players. Remove that and you risk it all.

OH dear god. Prestige of raiding. You've got to be kidding me witht his. Nobody cares about your heroic guild dude. Really few people care about method or dream paragon why do you think anyone cares about your heroic guild? I'm so tired of reading things like this. You miss being a spineless toad for guys higher up on the totem poll to spit on?

[Keoren]

if they haven't so what?

Then it's not old content for them?

they saw the add on some website for the thunder king thought that was cool and want to go fight him not fight the piddling army of bullshit that exists before him.

If someone saw a banner for Throne of Thunder tonight and bought the game because of that, I have my doubts that they'd even reach level 90 and the required gear for LFR while it's still current content. If the person in question happened to be a returning player, it becomes a matter of determining whatever amount of catch-up is the best for the game. I think that having to catch up a bit is appropriate.

They aren't interested in your notions about having to go back and do "old crap" when they see the guy in stormwind in full 522s or upgrade heroic thunderforged. They aren't interested in going through hoops for progression.

These are pure assumptions that only look at the situation from a single perspective. You're also implying a form of prestige in higher end raiding after just above ago denying its existence.

Their is no reason to make older content relevant, because guess what people aren't gonna do it.

People are not going to do it if they don't have a reason to.

If older content becomes relevant enough to the point where people would chose to do it it would have to be more relevant than current or new content.

I don't think that it would have to be more relevant except for maybe a limited demographic.
I am not even saying that everyone should want to go back or that it should have to be a weekly thing for people. I would merely like to see the game encouraging people to do the older tiers at least once instead of turning them into wasted content.

The changes might not even have to be that radical. Something as simple as increasing the amount of gear drops would make T14 a much more attractive option for guilds to clear in order to gear for T15. There could even be something new such as the end boss kills granting you an access to a limited amount of better gear. For example, the end boss kills could each grant the players an access to few additional valor pieces.

There is really no limit to all the possibilities and these are just random examples off the top of my head.

[Deleted]

Then it's not old content for them?

Why do you even bother with that troll.

Do not call others trolls. -Azshira

[Glorious Leader]

People are not going to do it if they don't have a reason to.

The only reason that would be sufficient to get enough players to go back would have to basically mean that it would be preferable to doing current or new content. Especially for casual raid guilds with little time. It's simple not worth going back to do old raids and to make it worthwhile would basically mean it wouldn't be worth doing the current raid which is far worse.

Especially in an lfr universe, you simple cannot provide enough incentive to get enough people to go back and do old content to make it worthwhile to devote any development resources let alone actually find enough people to get groups actually going. The minute you do provide enough incentive then it ceases becoming worth doing the new raid in favor of going back to clear easy content that rewards you better in a time to reward ratio. In fact this is exactly the argument made about lfr being a problem. Why struggle with the new raid tier when you can go back and get some new gear from the old raid? Oh your not guaranteed to get the new gear in the old raid and it's determined by rng? Well fuck it on to new raid. The developers can barely balance incentives for daily questing properly without having a riot on their hands, how do you expect them to balance incentives in an entire raid tier properly enough?

[Keoren]

The only reason that would be sufficient to get enough players to go back would have to basically mean that it would be preferable to doing current or new content. Especially for casual raid guilds with little time. It's simple not worth going back to do old raids and to make it worthwhile would basically mean it wouldn't be worth doing the current raid which is far worse.

I think it would be acceptable if it was preferable for certain demographics. Making the older raids a much more efficient gearing path would already give them a boost without tying the individual players back for an extended period of time.

The developers can barely balance incentives for daily questing properly without having a riot on their hands, how do you expect them to balance incentives in an entire raid tier properly enough?

The ones having issues with too many alternatives are probably the more progression oriented player who feel compelled doing it all. They have already completed the tiers and shouldn't feel too pressured into going back. I would emphasize the content for the players who did not complete it, alts, and the people who are after that extra boost they're still missing.

Why do you even bother with that troll.

I was going to go with sexual frustration, but I think it's more that I simply like debating.

[Glorious Leader]

I think it would be acceptable if it was preferable for certain demographics. Making the older raids a much more efficient gearing path would already give them a boost without tying the groups back week after week.



The ones having issues with too many alternatives are probably the more progression oriented player who feel compelled doing it all. They have already completed the tiers and shouldn't feel too pressured into going back. I would emphasize the content for the players who did not complete it, alts, and the people who are after that extra boost they're still missing.



I was going to go with sexual frustration, but I think it's more that I simply like debating.

They tried to make the older raids a much more effecient gearing path. Especially in lfr where they gave you 20 charms and increased boss rolls.

You can call it whatever you like if you provide to much reward for old content than it ceases to become worth doing new content. If you provide enough reward to motivate players to do old content then they will do that content instead of new content. This is for all guilds casual or not. If you all of a sudden add strong enough reward (strong enough btw to overcome the immediate desire to just say fuck it and run lfr and the normal raid) then those players will do that in favor of the new content because it's the most effecient path to reward. I know I keep going around and around and you probably seem to think that's a good thing but in reality it's horrible. Not everybody has all the time in the universe. I think adding so much incentive to the old raids that players CHOOSE to go back and do the old raids will just lead to even more burnout ala daily questing. You can't just neatly divide up players like your trying to. It doesn't work like that.

This is of course exactly the problem with LFR (and ostensible the old 10/25 man wrath model)just now replicated to an additional tier of content. At least wrath and lfr were/are current content though. I mean lfr is a content ghetto but at least it's current content. That strikes me as being far better than you sending them back into the past to fulfill painfully regressive ideas about the game and what players and shouldn't have to do.

[Firebert]

Why would I want to go back and progress through an older tier that I didn't finish?

Completing a previous tier doubles your chance of Thunderforged/pre-upgraded loot in Normal and Heroic.

Why would I as a new player want to play through the older tiers first before catching up to the newest one?

The amount of loot dropped by bosses killed in previous tiers is increased by 50%.

What would ensure that there would be groups running the older content, giving the players the chance to go back?

See point 1, and clearing a previous tier in one week would permanently increase your weekly valor and conquest caps by 100. This would reset once a new tier is introduced.

[Glorious Leader]

Completing a previous tier doubles your chance of Thunderforged/pre-upgraded loot in Normal and Heroic.

The amount of loot dropped by bosses killed in previous tiers is increased by 50%.

See point 1, and clearing a previous tier in one week would permanently increase your weekly valor and conquest caps by 100. This would reset once a new tier is introduced.

yea but that doesn't mean guilds or riads would necessarily take players that needed it for catch up or training. They would simple take their already geared players and clear it out before hand. In fact we'd get back to the point were pug raids were like you need GS of X and Ilvl of Y and must have achieve because their interest isn't in training people or catch up. Again you've provided so good of a reward that they will spend less time in a normal raid and actually want to go back and do the old raid instead. Do you think that's a good thing?

It would become less about training or catch up and more about speed running through the thing to get it over with asap because you want the reward for the new content. It wouldn't be about handling the gap. It would just be about providing an easy to get carrot for already established raids and creating a niche for pugs who wont take the players that need the training or catch up anyway.

[Firebert]

yea but that doesn't mean guilds or riads would necessarily take players that needed it for catch up or training. They would simple take their already geared players and clear it out before hand. In fact we'd get back to the point were pug raids were like you need GS of X and Ilvl of Y and must have achieve because their interest isn't in training people or catch up. Again you've provided so good of a reward that they will spend less time in a normal raid and actually want to go back and do the old raid instead. Do you think that's a good thing?

Yes, considering the previous tier would be nerfed (hence, PuGgable) to midway between LFR and Normal of the current tier, giving players something to do that's not LFR but is progressing their character, bonuses for when they clear the raid, and the previous Tier's achievement would be used to get into current tier's guilds because the difficulty of the last boss of the previous tier would be identical to that of the first boss of the current tier.

Smooths the difficulty curve, too.

[Glorious Leader]

Yes, considering the previous tier would be nerfed (hence, PuGgable) to midway between LFR and Normal of the current tier, giving players something to do that's not LFR but is progressing their character, bonuses for when they clear the raid, and the previous Tier's achievement would be used to get into current tier's guilds because the difficulty of the last boss of the previous tier would be identical to that of the first boss of the current tier.

Smooths the difficulty curve, too.

Wait but none of that has anything to do with the difficulty curve because ToT is still to hard. In fact making the previous raid easier just makes the next raid jump up even higher.

In the end none of it actually handles the gap at all. Adding a bonus to the old raid basically serves to get already established raids to go back and do it for the bonus and if a struggling raid does it (say on the second or third boss) then they aren't spending time on that boss and won't chose to to go back and do the old raid anyway. Pugs might but those pugs will tell people who need the training and catch up to go screw themselves. I mean the bonus itself is kinda lame anyway. If their not doing lfr and can't do tot because of difficulty why would they back and do the old raid for a bonus in the new raid? . I mean assuming they even got loot of the first boss in the first place. How does making them go back to do old content (old content you nerf heavily especially relative to the new conten) handle the difficulty gap?

[Firebert]

Wait but none of that has anything to do with the difficulty curve because ToT is still to hard. In fact making the previous raid easier just makes the next raid jump up even higher.

ToT needs nerfing across the board.

In the end none of it actually handles the gap at all. I mean the bonus itself is kinda lame anyway. Adding a bonus to the old raid basically serves to get already established raids to go back and do it for the bonus and if a struggling raid does it (say on the second or third boss) then they aren't spending time on that boss and won't chose to to go back and do the old raid anyway.

It's up to struggling raiders to decide whether they want to skip ahead in progression, and take all the downsides that come with it.

Pugs might but those pugs will tell people who need the training and catch up to go screw themselves. If their not doing lfr and can't do tot because of difficulty why would they back and do the old raid for a bonus in the new raid? I mean assuming they even got loot of the first boss in the first place. How does making them go back to do old content handle the difficulty gap?

Why? If they're not doing LFR, they're not following progression. Clear LFR, clear Normal of the previous tier (stepping stone), clear Normal of the current tier, clear Heroic of the current tier.

If they can't do ToT because they didn't follow progression then that's their bag, see above.

Making people go back and do old content effectively gives players a fourth difficulty to choose from that bridges LFR to Normal.

[Glorious Leader]

ToT needs nerfing across the board.

This alone would solve the problem. No additional difficulty is needed. I disagree that adding incentive to old raids is a good thing or even worth doing but nerfing tot we agree on.

I'll have to think on that one though, it does have some merits.

[Rielthas]

If you re-ad different lockouts with higher level gear then you'll get threads of people complaining they're "forced" to raid both modes. Much as I think the death of 25 man is an absolute tragedy that should be reversed where possible (personally I'd love to raid it again!) I'm not sure there's an easier way to do it.

People may complain, but perhaps its best for the game. Also, 25 man regular and heroic raiders may prefer having the option to run a higher skill level organized 10 man over the LFR, and if all goes well, maybe they'll never need to run LFR at all anymore, or at least hardly at all, because they'll have the 10 man regular drops to get their upgrades too, meaning they will need to fill less gear slots via LFR. Otherwise, everyone has to run LFR anyways, remember? For 10 man regular raiders, when they get back to realizing how much fun and good for server camaraderie to run server pug 25 man runs every week, it'll bring back one of the good parts of the divided lockouts in the ICC days.

---------- Post added 2013-06-01 at 12:09 AM ----------

If they want to test the waters of 15 man and see if it catches on, a pressure-free 15 man beer league run would be the best way to do it, I suppose! It would also solve the problem of having to have an easier level 25 man and 10 man then the regular skill level. This would be the second best choice to my Bad Player's Lore model in my opinion.

[celinamuna]

People may complain, but perhaps its best for the game. Also, 25 man regular and heroic raiders may prefer having the option to run a higher skill level organized 10 man over the LFR, and if all goes well, maybe they'll never need to run LFR at all anymore, or at least hardly at all, because they'll have the 10 man regular drops to get their upgrades too, meaning they will need to fill less gear slots via LFR. Otherwise, everyone has to run LFR anyways, remember? For 10 man regular raiders, when they get back to realizing how much fun and good for server camaraderie to run server pug 25 man runs every week, it'll bring back one of the good parts of the divided lockouts in the ICC days.[COLOR="red"]
.

I'm sorry, but having to run ICC 10 , ICC25, TOC10H and TOC25H (plus voa's) was never the FUN part.
Having to find additional 15 players to sort of carry through the first few bosses for a lil bit extra chance at loot, is not fun.

[Sarevokcz]

This is how I feel every time people discuss ICC, Wrath, or compare it to early Cataclysm.

Remember when RS came out? And pugs would get obliterated by the trash because there was no more 30% cushion in there lol. And they quickly bailed and that was it, hardly anyone tried to pug RS again.

To be fair that trash was vicious though.

to be fair, I PuGged late Wrath with 3 chars and ironically, succes rate went down the higher the buff went, also ironically, the higher GS leader required, the worse succes the raid had, probably just my server issue tho

I had most succes early into 25ICC pugging getting 4 kills was like super common the week they opened ICC, getting 6-7 was still common among the more organized random pugs later and the more organized groups were killing 11/12 pretty early, maybe because there were "training grounds" in form of a 10man, who knows, but pugs back then had decent succesful rate even in low-ish gear (4500-4800 GS was the usual requirement back then, slowly growing to retarded 6k by the end of the Xpac.)

Now, 3 months into the ToT, 25man pugging is dead on our server (was decently active during FL and DS) and only "pugs" succesful enough to get far into the ToT (like past tortos/meg) are basically 505+ geared alts from HC raiding guilds.

Also back then, I could pick a PuG I wanted to join, as there were half a dozen of them made every evening and quite alot more on the weekends. Now its pretty rare to even see a real pug forming in trade. Most of the "LFM X ToT" are basically guild runs with 1-3 people missing with very specific needs with alot of "sorry bro, we got enha, no hunter allowed" and similar stuff.

On topic tho, I honestly think normal raids should have better progression in difficulty the deeper you get into the raid. Now the difficulty pretty much jumps the whale shark at Horridon, instead of Qon/Consorts/Leishen, everything between Jinrokh and Qon should be propotionally toned down to make the difficulty raise steady instead of in huge jumps. Its not gonna affect my main, as we are raiding HCs, but my and hunders of thousands of others alts and another hunders of thusands other people would have definitely and easier time to actually get to enjoy stuff past LFR.

[Rielthas]

The idea of introducing 15 man raiding slowly as the "missing" beer league content between LFR and 10 Man reg does intrigue me. I decided to Vlog on the idea and compare it to my Bad Player's Lore Raid Model. Check it out if you are interested:
http://youtu.be/c018UXjvsOc

[Pua]

I'm sorry, but having to run ICC 10 , ICC25, TOC10H and TOC25H (plus voa's) was never the FUN part.

That's what he's saying.

You may not find it fun, but is it better for the game?

The most interesting part of all this is that Blizzard were willing to accept the argument that running both 25-man and 10-man raids was somehow unacceptable enough for a significant change going into Cataclysm, but when players nowadays complain that they feel too heavily compelled to run LFR as well it's perfectly fine and "nobody's forced to do it".

It's... Inconsistent, at best.

[RickJamesLich]

This alone would solve the problem. No additional difficulty is needed. I disagree that adding incentive to old raids is a good thing or even worth doing but nerfing tot we agree on.

I'll have to think on that one though, it does have some merits.

Nerfing ToT just furthers the problem that LFR is too boring, at that point they'd make normal too boring too, and those same raiders would end up *really* hating heroic modes.