View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1521
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    Looks like only the .01% of players that do Heroic Raids are good players then. I swear you guys are your own worst enemy.
    Heroic raiding that isn't at the very very high end just requires an average player to play their class properly...

  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    For what reason?

    You only want LFR left or something?
    If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding, cutting edge progression guilds are struggling to find good recruits because ... right now ... no-one needs to improve or play well. You can do nothing in this game and still kill Lei Shen and if you really want you can buy yourself a Heroic Ra-den kill without ever really putting in the effort. Sure, buying heroic achievements has always been common but the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.

  3. #1523
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's a problem.
    Just because the average participant is getting more out of shape, more over weight and running slower and slower each year in Martathons, does not mean they move the finish line closer each year.

    At what point do we stop nerfing content to adjust it for the new "average" guild, as there will always be people struggling with the content. If you nerf the content, in a few months, there will be a new "average" guild that is still wiping on the first bosses and the gap beteen entry guilds an the endgame guils are even bigger.

    At some point we got to stop and instead of the answer being nerfing the content, maybe it could be to finally let the little birdies fly out of the nest and deal with it themselves. Blizzard cant hold hands with entry level raiders forever. Maybe a more logical solution would be to instead of having irrelevant daily quests giving coins used in raiding, maybe make the daily quest actually raid related?
    Having daily quests that requires you to actively move out of shit or you die.
    Having daily quests that requires dps to pull a certain dps mark to kill a mob, maybe having a mob with 3 million health healing itself for 60-70k per second.
    In the same fashion, having something that healers need to heal, something that takes 60k damage per second and needs to be healed up from 1.5M to 3M. And something similar for tanks.

    Maybe it is time to stop and consider that the fault is not the raids, rather the training grounds for raids. Which right now is non-existant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 02:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.
    An what I said above could be a help to turn this trend, since this is as true as ever.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  4. #1524
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's the problem.

    Also the average guild doesn't have an MT with Heroic experience.
    Horridon is not a brick wall, it's the same difficulty as jinrokh

  5. #1525
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Just because the average participant is getting more out of shape, more over weight and running slower and slower each year in Martathons, does not mean they move the finish line closer each year.

    At what point do we stop nerfing content to adjust it for the new "average" guild, as there will always be people struggling with the content. If you nerf the content, in a few months, there will be a new "average" guild that is still wiping on the first bosses and the gap beteen entry guilds an the endgame guils are even bigger.

    At some point we got to stop and instead of the answer being nerfing the content, maybe it could be to finally let the little birdies fly out of the nest and deal with it themselves.
    The difference being that this is a video game rather than a competition. This is the best those little birdies can do; they're just going to leave the game, which certainly isn't good for hardcore raiders. If they leave Heroics are going to leave with them. There's no way on Earth Blizzard could justify spending that amount of resources on such an incredibly small segment of the population. Quite frankly I'm not sure if it's even justifiable with Normals as they are now.

  6. #1526
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's the problem.

    Also the average guild doesn't have an MT with Heroic experience.
    How is Horridon a brick wall? My guild is 3/13 HM and I'm the MT. We killed it the first night of progressing on it last week, and killed it again last night.

    Jinrok / Horridon / Jihkun - our kills so far. If you are trying to state brickwall bosses then I would point you toward Council heroic, or Drumu heroic.

  7. #1527
    Quote Originally Posted by garoboldy View Post
    How is Horridon a brick wall? My guild is 3/13 HM and I'm the MT. We killed it the first night of progressing on it last week, and killed it again last night.

    Jinrok / Horridon / Jihkun - our kills so far. If you are trying to state brickwall bosses then I would point you toward Council heroic, or Drumu heroic.
    We're talking about raiders that will never hit HC anything. Average raiders. Heroic =/= average.

  8. #1528
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    The difference being that this is a video game rather than a competition. This is the best those little birdies can do; they're just going to leave the game, which certainly isn't good for hardcore raiders. If they leave Heroics are going to leave with them. There's no way on Earth Blizzard could justify spending that amount of resources on such an incredibly small segment of the population. Quite frankly I'm not sure if it's even justifiable with Normals as they are now.
    This is the problem. Raiding is not a casual video game, it requires 9/24 players atleast. And it is a competetion.
    If you want casual video game experience, you got a lot of other content. Raiding is WoWs response to a major league game. If you want to play on a level where you just kick around a ball with some friends, then you have 5 mans, LFR, older content etc, all of which require no big commitment.

    Wows niche that it contains hardcore end-game content is one of the few things that keeps WoW alive. Without that, WoW would be no different from most the other new MMOs.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #1529
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding, cutting edge progression guilds are struggling to find good recruits because ... right now ... no-one needs to improve or play well. You can do nothing in this game and still kill Lei Shen and if you really want you can buy yourself a Heroic Ra-den kill without ever really putting in the effort. Sure, buying heroic achievements has always been common but the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.
    Ah right, the old "if we up the difficulty people will HAVE to improve" argument.

    People don't have to do anything and what rhey actually do if you up the difficulty is leave completely. Wow for most people isn't the wife beating husband she just can't let go!
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition View Post
    Horridon is not a brick wall, it's the same difficulty as jinrokh
    Statistics prove otherwise. Post facts, not whatever passes for reality in your mind.

  11. #1531
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.

  12. #1532
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.
    Having raided since vanilla, i'll tell you straight, raids are now harder then they have ever been. I like it, but the point still stands.

    What's happened is that blizzard have hived off the "casual" into LFR and then thought "right we can make raids harder now they are taken care of." What this has done is split people into "heroic" or "lfr" camps and is fucking normal mode guilds over in the process.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  13. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Having raided since vanilla, i'll tell you straight, raids are now harder then they have ever been. I like it, but the point still stands
    If you honestly believe that, then you stopped playing after MC and started playing in DS / 30% nerfed ICC again.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #1534
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This is the problem. Raiding is not a casual video game, it requires 9/24 players atleast. And it is a competetion.
    If you want casual video game experience, you got a lot of other content. Raiding is WoWs response to a major league game. If you want to play on a level where you just kick around a ball with some friends, then you have 5 mans, LFR, older content etc, all of which require no big commitment.

    Wows niche that it contains hardcore end-game content is one of the few things that keeps WoW alive. Without that, WoW would be no different from most the other new MMOs.
    WoW's appeal to casual gamers is what keeps it alive. Nothing more. As soon as that appeal is gone WoW will truly be a niche game with an audience in the thousands rather than millions.

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.
    Talking about pathetic attitudes, any reason why a developer can't make content aimed at the less skilled? Pathetic is clumping everyone into your skill bracket and refusing to acknowledge some aren't or don't have the time to be. It's a game, a lot of these people don't have the time or the inclination, give them a watered down version above lfr with social interaction.

    It's the new world, give players what they want, ramming your vision down their throats isn't good for business.

  16. #1536
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    WoW's appeal to casual gamers is what keeps it alive. Nothing more. As soon as that appeal is gone WoW will truly be a niche game with an audience in the thousands rather than millions.
    Theres so much more to the game than raiding, and if you're really casual you will settle for as far as LFR goes. By that I mean casual as not being able to make scheduled raiding times and such, and just playing for funsies whenever you have time.

    I have never spoken to any friend that play WoW casually and heard him/her whine about raid difficulties, because they are smart enough to know you have to put effort&time into raiding. And thats what they cant do, so they wont complain about something like that and settle for LFR and older tier-raids.
    Last edited by Trollfaced; 2013-06-05 at 03:24 PM.

  17. #1537
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    It's the new world, give players what they want, ramming your vision down their throats isn't good for business.
    Players don't know what they want. DS was ridiculously easy. People complained. People hated the old LFR looting system so they made it 100% fair. People complain. People will always complain. Blizzard should just listen to the people who are actually happy and content with the game and design the game around their wishes. Which, fortunately, means normal raiding difficulty is staying as is or, at the very least, only going to get more difficult.

  18. #1538
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding
    The game is bleeding because they made normal modes harder. Your suggestion would make the problem even worse. It's the exact opposite of the proper course of action.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  19. #1539
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The game is bleeding because they made normal modes harder. Your suggestion would make the problem even worse. It's the exact opposite of the proper course of action.
    If 10 mans are made easier then they'll eventually need to drop the item level of the gear in 10 mans which means anyone who was raiding 10 mans for the loot aspect ( as well as friends, family etc) will be shafted all because a small minority of players cannot be arsed to learn how to dodge fire while doing a semi-optimal DPS rotation. Normal modes are staying as they are, or getting harder. That's the reality of the situation (if there even is one, which I'm not sure that there is).

  20. #1540
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    If 10 mans are made easier then they'll eventually need to drop the item level of the gear in 10 mans .
    Why would they have to do that? I mean, what law of man or nature requires that action?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

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