View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1701
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    for pugs yes I agree, but for guilds wanting to gear up certain members it does kinda sucks, I wish there was a switch to change it if you like.
    Not sure about Blizzard's technology. Maybe it can be ML always on until a player is invited from a) a different guild or b) cross realm? How many items would it drop though? That's another thing. 10 man drops 2 items, 25 drops 6 items. 15 man would only be able to drop 3-4 items, 20 man 4-5 items etc. Confusing.

  2. #1702
    Imo there are only 3 main thoughts involved with the idea of raiding.

    A) To see content.
    B) To be competitive.

    and most importantly:
    C) To be social.

    Flex mode obviously only affects the last one. LFD and LFR destroyed the community and now they want to counter it by incentivizing PUGs. The first step was heroic scenarios and now flex mode.

    Personally I'd hope that LFR and flex will share a lockout (loot lockout obviously). All the normal/heroic raiders would then do flex with friends and you could run an actual zero tolerance policy against afkers and jerks. And finally LFR would have appropriate difficulty balancing (if you don't do the mechanics = wipe!).

    One can only dream.

  3. #1703
    Over 9000! Arbs's Avatar
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    I feel Flex will become the Pre raid everyone wanted & not LFR. With Flex I have more of a reason to continue to refuse to do LFR unless I'm in a somewhat premade group that I know can carry the group if needed, Weither its with mains or alts. I like the idea of it and if done right it can be a success, but also there are many factors that have to been put into place & many people have already suggested them no reason for me to repeat them.

    But what I am hoping for is that now with Flex Diff that Normal & Herioc will no longer get nerfed & will continue to be difficult in 10 /25 man respectively as they are in Throne of Thunder. At this point we now know 10 / 25 more than likely wont get the shared lockout removed, but the main issue about 25 mans still exists, Basically they need to hit the button and just make it more in-sentive to run 25 Man over 10 Man, giving more gear isn't the right way. My suggestion is making 25 man more difficult high iLevel like in Wrath. We will have to see how this all pans out in the end.

  4. #1704
    Stood in the Fire Drudatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Because really I don't see how players get through even Normals without a meter addon.
    Hint for you: people did mc back in the days even without recount...

  5. #1705
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Not sure about Blizzard's technology. Maybe it can be ML always on until a player is invited from a) a different guild or b) cross realm? How many items would it drop though? That's another thing. 10 man drops 2 items, 25 drops 6 items. 15 man would only be able to drop 3-4 items, 20 man 4-5 items etc. Confusing.
    I guess making 0.2% chance per player?

    13 players would drop 2 loots with 60% chance of another one.

    Though I see nothing wrong with it using a LFR looting system, even though it is kinda boring.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #1706
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I guess making 0.2% chance per player?

    13 players would drop 2 loots with 60% chance of another one.

    Though I see nothing wrong with it using a LFR looting system, even though it is kinda boring.
    Seeing loot drop is exciting but also infuriating:

    "OMG heroic Horridon's Last Gasp dropped!!"
    "oh shit it's thunderforged, gg going for max dkp"
    "i want to kill myself"

  7. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Seeing loot drop is exciting but also infuriating:

    "OMG heroic Horridon's Last Gasp dropped!!"
    "oh shit it's thunderforged, gg going for max dkp"
    "i want to kill myself"
    I agree, but that doesnt make it negative
    Makes the feeling of finally getting it that much better!
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #1708
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Seeing loot drop is exciting but also infuriating:

    "OMG heroic Horridon's Last Gasp dropped!!"
    "oh shit it's thunderforged, gg going for max dkp"
    "i want to kill myself"
    Much better than:
    - Rolling a 'downgrade' that someone in the raid could have used.
    - Rolling the same item for the X time that again at least someone else could have used.

    Normal loot systems spread the gear out semi sensibly. The LFR system spreads it out randomly. That is obviously worse for your raid.

  9. #1709
    Quote Originally Posted by gend View Post
    Much better than:
    - Rolling a 'downgrade' that someone in the raid could have used.
    - Rolling the same item for the X time that again at least someone else could have used.
    Happens with ML loot systems too. 5th week of Ra-den dropping plate tanking loot when we only use 1 plate tank. Wasted loot will always exist.

  10. #1710
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Seeing loot drop is exciting but also infuriating:

    "OMG heroic Horridon's Last Gasp dropped!!"
    "oh shit it's thunderforged, gg going for max dkp"
    "i want to kill myself"
    It has to be personal loot otherwise you'd have a repeat of the Week 1 Dragon Soul LFR situation, where top guilds bring 3 mains and 7 alts and funnel all the gear to the 3 mains. You can bet there will be some overpowered weapons / trinkets / set bonuses where even with vastly lower ilvl will still be an upgrade.

    It also stops all the loot drama with PUGs because with personal loot, you can't blame the other players, you can only blame the system.

  11. #1711
    High Overlord
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    I think one of the great benefits of this could be sort of like a 'training ground' for normal fights for guilds who can't quite seem to get past that one mechanic...

    Struggling on how to handle adds on Horridon? Let's drop down to flex mode, and try to keep the conditions the same as possible (same raid size, same mechanics to deal with, etc.) and try to see if you can switch targets appropriately...

    Having issues with the Maze/life drain/colorblind phase on Durumu? Same thing...

    At least that's how I see OUR guild using this feature most. We're making okay progress in normals, but it's taken us awhile and we've encountered the normal roadblocks like everyone else.

    Or, it'd be a great place to try out a crazy strat and see if you can incorporate it to normal mode
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

  12. #1712
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    At least with the Flex achievement you can get into Normals.
    You seem awfully confident about that. But I know this community. It drops gear that's subnormal, so people who run it will be subnormals. Yes, I just complained about the item level. Bite me. Blizzard loves to create "solutions" that only cause more and more problems.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  13. #1713
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    You seem awfully confident about that. But I know this community. It drops gear that's subnormal, so people who run it will be subnormals. Yes, I just complained about the item level. Bite me. Blizzard loves to create "solutions" that only cause more and more problems.
    What. The. Fuck. Does. This. Even. Mean.

  14. #1714
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    What. The. Fuck. Does. This. Even. Mean.
    He thinks that the quality of the loot that a raid drops, and the quality of the player that owns said loot is positively correllated.

    I disagree.
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  15. #1715
    It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what serious raiding guilds think. If this existed today, recruiters would look at your achieve, then look at your gear, see that your only Normal items were from SPA rep, and deny your app. That would be like Heroic guilds recruiting from Normal, where a majority of Normal guilds will never see past, say, Durumu before Siege is out. Except they don't even have to inspect your gear: no Lei Shen kill = deny app. This won't help anyone advance in the social strata, it will just create another thing for hardcores to belittle people over.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  16. #1716
    Herald of the Titans Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what serious raiding guilds think. If this existed today, recruiters would look at your achieve, then look at your gear, see that your only Normal items were from SPA rep, and deny your app. That would be like Heroic guilds recruiting from Normal, where a majority of Normal guilds will never see past, say, Durumu before Siege is out. Except they don't even have to inspect your gear: no Lei Shen kill = deny app. This won't help anyone advance in the social strata, it will just create another thing for hardcores to belittle people over.
    This is pretty much what I imagine is going to happen, too. Essentially, there's really nothing Blizzard can do short of offering mentoring guilds on a wide scale, or something, that lets anyone raid.

    In short! WoW's community, when able to do the worst, it will do the worst.

  17. #1717
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    It doesn't matter what I think. It matters what serious raiding guilds think. If this existed today, recruiters would look at your achieve, then look at your gear, see that your only Normal items were from SPA rep, and deny your app. That would be like Heroic guilds recruiting from Normal, where a majority of Normal guilds will never see past, say, Durumu before Siege is out. Except they don't even have to inspect your gear: no Lei Shen kill = deny app. This won't help anyone advance in the social strata, it will just create another thing for hardcores to belittle people over.
    Actually most heroic mode guilds are willing to try out people geared in full normal mode gear, or worse, when on farm. Recently our guild has taken on 4 new Warlocks each with an item level of sub-522. Within 1 week they're all (I think) above 530 item level. Most have their heroic 4 piece. I think 3 of them will fail personally due to the way they sucked at Helm of Command, but that's what recruitment is about. Gear doesn't matter.

  18. #1718
    sometimes it has nothing to do with skill. a casual friend of mine on another server wanted to get into normal raiding. problem was, all pugs and guilds he's seen require experience to attend a raid. but he needs to raid to get the experience and achievement. some folks are stuck in a catch 22.

  19. #1719
    Quote Originally Posted by Blur4stuff View Post
    sometimes it has nothing to do with skill. a casual friend of mine on another server wanted to get into normal raiding. problem was, all pugs and guilds he's seen require experience to attend a raid. but he needs to raid to get the experience and achievement. some folks are stuck in a catch 22.
    Why didn't he make his own pug group?

  20. #1720
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Why didn't he make his own pug group?
    Guessing it's because the person making the pug group may feel like they have to also raid lead, which many are not comfortable doing.

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