How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[RickJamesLich]

I'd also like to add, at what point are people entitled to guaranteed kills on normal mode bosses? I can understand with LFR, but if someone is having trouble getting adjusted to normal modes, they should probably just stick to doing LFR (obviously lol) as that is the purpose of LFR in the first place. Killing off the challenge for everyone else because a select few folks can't adapt with the large amount of tools provided is silly, to me at least.

[Deleted]

from all the bad suggestions in the poll, I think the new "easy" mode would be best.

[Shahad]

I'd also like to add, at what point are people entitled to guaranteed kills on normal mode bosses? I can understand with LFR, but if someone is having trouble getting adjusted to normal modes, they should probably just stick to doing LFR (obviously lol) as that is the purpose of LFR in the first place. Killing off the challenge for everyone else because a select few folks can't adapt with the large amount of tools provided is silly, to me at least.

It's not about one single person being unable to do Normals. It's about a casual group that doesn't kick people for being bad because they're friends that can't do Normal but find LFR boring. There's an actual niche for these people who have been used to raids like DS. The obvious solution is creating a difficulty for them rather than nerfing normals or buffing LFR, which I bet is what the Devs are thinking.

[hanketsu]

I think it should be:

1. LFR as is
2. 10m with lower ilvl loot and no Heroic Modes
3. 15m still higher ilvl
4. 25m with higher ilvl (no heroic, but gives loot out at a higher ratio like 1 pieces of loot pert per five people
.
Make 25m harder and give the fastest gearing. Also make the lockouts have 2 charges. You can fight any boss twice across all four raid sizes

And in the process, reduce the quality of the expansion.
Sorry, but I don't think most people understand the amount of programming involved in any game. It's not as easy as you think, try it sometime.

I'm in favor of either removing LFR all together, or making it easier for casuals, just strip the legendary components out of LFR.
Keep your mitts off of normal and heroic modes. I love the difficulty for them the way they are.
People really need to learn boss mechanics and learn their class. When I see people with a higher ilevel than me and I'm pulling double their damage, there is a problem with the person not the game.

As a previous post suggested, I too am surprised you people haven't called for nerfs to forum posting yet.

[Shahad]

And in the process, reduce the quality of the expansion.
Sorry, but I don't think most people understand the amount of programming involved in any game. It's not as easy as you think, try it sometime.

I'm in favor of either removing LFR all together, or making it easier for casuals, just strip the legendary components out of LFR.
Keep your mitts off of normal and heroic modes. I love the difficulty for them the way they are.
People really need to learn boss mechanics and learn their class. When I see people with a higher ilevel than me and I'm pulling double their damage, there is a problem with the person not the game.

As a previous post suggested, I too am surprised you people haven't called for nerfs to forum posting yet.

No one is advocating making LFR easier(is that even possible?), we're just saying there should be a step in between brain-dead LFR and Normals(which are more difficult than they were last xpac, which is good).

[Deleted]

LFR is already the only real option to gear up an alt without getting a PuG for T14 content(which many requires 480+ gear, go figure). LFR has taken the place of heroic dungeons as a catchup mechanics.

I don't really understand Normal raiders feeling forced to do LFR. The ilvl of items there is lower than Hof/TotES Heroic and ToT Normal and VP gear. The only thing left is the odd sub 496/502 piece and VP, which isn't really enough for me to consider feeling forced to do it. And I was one of those arguing that Dailies felt mandatory too, so I'm not from THAT crowd.

I do not think you understand the mindset of a hardcore raider. If I need to spend a couple of ours for a chance to get +10 str and +20 secondary stats, I do it. Everything counts, everything I can do to optimize myself I do it. If that means to run LFR with a 20% chance to get an item from a boss that I only need 1/4 items on, I do it.

As I mentioned earlier, one of my old raiding friends that has been raiding in world top guilds in wotlk recently got back to raiding now that we started up a new serious raid team. On his new character, other than running every LFR, doing dailies, fixing of professions, fixing the gear, grinding HCs, reputations, raiding normals, he also did amber shaper LFR, 27, twenty-seven times in 2 weeks (closer to 3 days probably as it was in the end of 1 week and in the beginning of the next ). Try solo queue to HoF LFR twentyseven times as a dps and see how fun you find it. Though he did not really have any option, that was the best way for him to gear up.

What is wrong with normal mode raiders having to raid normal mode to gear up? I really dont get it? Why do normal mode raiders need a charity mode that is just a huge bloody time sink with no raiding enjoyment, though you have to do it to be competetive. LFR is not the only option, you can go to T14 normals easily on a new alt. With the nerf you should not even need 450 item level for it, MSV was easy enough in 463. If pugs ask you for 480 ilvl, make your own pug? Problem solved.

What are people afraid of? Interacting with other people? Have LFR really messed of the playerbase of WoW that much that they are afraid to interact with players and put actual effort into their characters, and dont tell me LFR is effort, that is just timesink. Have people gotten that comfortable with getting welfare epics? Just reading the posts in this thread from pro-LFR people... this has gone to far. Blizzard really needs to pull the plug in LFR.

You do not understand why normal raiders feel forced to do LFR? Yes, normal HoF/MSV etc got higher item level in ToES. But if you run HoF/MSV one time, you are not gonna have full gear. You HAVE to run LFR to fill in the gaps. Even only if 1 out of the 12 items that a LFR drops for you is a potential upgrade of 15 primary stats and 30 secondary stats, you have to run it. Simple as that. LFR also get the benefit of being easier and especially now with the increased drop chance in LFR, gearing up is much faster in LFR than normal, which is just plain wrong. You are being rewarded with more rewards (though not as good) for a lot less effort.

And even though the item levels in ToT LFR is lower than HoF/ToES HCs and ToT normal, you still have to complement your gear. What does it matter if they got lower item level than what you CAN get, it is what you have got. I still got two 496 pieces. Nothing simply dropped for me, how many coins, how many bosses I killed, I got nothing. I have killed over 60 ToT (non LFR) bosses, since I was away for over a month, so missed a lot of raids. In those 60 bosses, I have gotten 3 items. Three. Bad RNG is bad RNG, I am not complaining about that. What I am complaining about, is that since I got those 3 items only, my gear is pretty much still last tiers gear, which still includes some 496. So I am forced to run LFR ToT on both my main, my alt and my second alt. I would prefer just being able to go ToT normal on all 3 and be done with it. Since I do all ToT lfrs on raid reset to maximize gear for progress, god forbid I have to sit out a boss, then I have to do that LFR again to get a chance for the titan runestone for the legendary chain.

As long as normal mode/heroic mode raiders have to the possibility to run LFR, and as long as LFR can possibly give them the smallest upgrade, they are forced to run it. If they got shitty loot luck, they are simply forced to run it.

Not to mention like you said, it is very hard finding pugs for T14 content? Why is that? Yes, LFR completely killed pugs. Why gear up there when it is so much easier to gear up in LFR? Like when I do LFR, most often I spend my time AFK, or watching a movie on second monitor just pressing random buttons not even watching the wow screen. (and doing so still ending in top 5 on the dps). Yes, that is fun! Cant you see how LFR completely killed the community on the server, pugging aswell as dumbing down the raiding population to feel entitled to get welfare epics for no effort. People are unwilling to put effort into anything anymore.

When we have been recruting lately we have got some replies like.
"really, you guys have a webpage? pfff... why so serious?"
"make an application? nah..."

People are expecting to simple get a guild invite to hardcore progression guild, that is how much the wow playerbase have moved backwards. Actually finding a half decent player is impossible. Nobody is putting effort in their characters anymore.

Okay, this is gonna sound very elitist, but I am just pointing out a naked truth here, so I apoligize in advance if this sounds to elitists... but...

No wonder people are struggling with normal ToT. It was so funny when we brought back 2-3 guys that havent raided since early cata/wotlk.
We basically steamrolled ToT, carrying 4 random pugs, with only 3 people that done it before. The other 4 were undergeared, between 470 and 490 item level being in there for the first time. Their reaction upon killing bosses was pretty much
"what a fucking lol boss" quoted word for word after killing tortos.
"what a joke raid"
"when does the real bosses come?" after animus

We were pretty much 8 manning the bosses while being undergeared, a pug pulling 50k dps etc, healers doing 30k hps. And it was not even difficult. ToT normals are really that easy. Yet you see all these people constantly claiming it is so hard. The wow community simply lost their capability to raid properly. And I think LFR is a big villain here, since it gives people this idea that they are entitled to loot no matter what. "Why should I improve myself? We are wiping, give me epics."

Now again, sorry if I sounded elitist there, but had to be said. It is the simple truth.


When the entry level raid system (LFR), which is the first thing that greats new player into raiding, teaches people that...
-Players that play good does not get rewarded for it.
-No matter how bad you play you get equal reward as everyone else.
-Stuff is very easy, bosses should die in a pull or two.

It is hard to not notice the problem this brings up. We are basically teaching the next generation of raiders to suck at this game. LFR needs to go.

[Komati]

10m easier than 25 man, drops lower ilv loot, and shares lockout.

[Manhands]

Blizz (specifically Ion Hazzikostas) said they wanted more pugging of normals. THAT'S the goal. Their theory is that people don't pug normals mainly because of the "gap" in difficulty (coordination, skill required, etc.) between LFR and Normal.

I'm not sure that theory paints the whole picture. I'm pretty sure there are other factors (such as the loot being 'good enough' from LFR, people hating being required to use voice chat in pugs, etc.). But, I don't really want to debate that, so I'll just leave it there.

I clicked the option "Nerf Normal modes" but cringed that you put "(like Dragonsoul)". No, nothing at all like Dragonsoul. But I think the solution has to do with making the starting normal mode bosses (BOTH raid sizes) more accessible:

Make the first few bosses puggable at the start of the tier. For the current tier, this would mean tuning Horridon and Council waaaaaay down. Then, step up the difficulty quite a bit for each subsequent boss. Scale it so that the end boss is just as difficult as it is now (for both 10s and 25s). In this way, at the start of the tier, people with the time/desire will get into the groove of (1) Run first LFR section then (2) Pug those three bosses. With the combined gear of LFR and the puggable bosses, more and more bosses will become puggable. By the end of the tier, scale difficulty so that 11/12 are puggable on a heavy raiding server. On servers with less raid experience, aim for 8/12.

Solving another problem at the same time, scale the first few heroics down quite a bit too. Let decent (I use the 'decent' very loosely...I just mean stable) raiding guilds get 3/12H within a couple weeks of killing the final boss. Then, of course, scale each boss so that the end boss is just as difficult as it is now. The result will be that more guilds will SEE the last boss and less guilds will break up due to early blocks (and a greater sense of accomplishment with current group). But I also think that very few guilds should actually kill the final boss.

The net result of both of these changes is a nerf to the content, on average. Make the bosses easier early, then scale them fast until the final boss matches current difficulty.

By the way, I saw a splash screen yesterday that said: "Join LFR for some of the most epic experiences WoW has to offer!"
Oh, Marketing Departments...how development hates ye...

[Prokne]

I votes 10m<25m with loot scaling since I would like to see more 25 man raiding. The situation in WotLK was perfect IMO, 25mans for hard raids, 10s for casuals and family/friends and no shared lockout.

The other way they could close the gap would be to raise the ilvl of LFR drops in relation to normal. 13 ilvls was good, about half a tier. 20 is really too much and its even worse considering thunderforged gear. The T16 normal raids will be pretty bad if you want to go from LFR->norm since they will probably be tuned assuming players have thunderforged gear. Its the least drastic solution. Blizzard just needs to stop talking to the people who force themselves to do LFR even though they dont like it and dont need to do it to complete normal modes.

[Spotnick]

The proper option isn't there.. include an easier 10 man difficulty to balance with 3 who has 3, but that you actually need your own group for.

[Raone]

I really dislike all the people choosing option 1 as I don't understand how anyone can select that. As a 10m raider who hates 25 man with every fibre of my being (too many people, can easily get lost in the crowd, I feel like my damage/survival matters more to the group in 10m). If they decide to nerf 10m that will piss off a huge % of the raiding playerbase but for what, so some raiders can raid again? You'll effectively be removing some raiders to let other raids which is exactly what they did at the end of Wrath when they made normals harder (and what they are trying to fix). I mean look at how many raiding 10m guilds there are, every single one of them (especially those who are on heroics) will be angry from this change.

And once again there is no "Remove LFR" or "Keep it the way it is" or "Remove gear from LFR" options because blizzard will do none of these, so there is no point in mentioning them.

Queing for LFR and doing it as a 10man sounds interesting but LFR is so stupidly easy you don't learn anything from it.

[Manhands]

The proper option isn't there.. include an easier 10 man difficulty to balance with 3 who has 3, but that you actually need your own group for.

You lost me at "balance with 3 who has 3".

[Omgarsh]

The old WOTLK model worked fine, so easier 10m that drops lower item level loot and keep 25m as the harder difficulty.

[RickJamesLich]

It's not about one single person being unable to do Normals. It's about a casual group that doesn't kick people for being bad because they're friends that can't do Normal but find LFR boring. There's an actual niche for these people who have been used to raids like DS. The obvious solution is creating a difficulty for them rather than nerfing normals or buffing LFR, which I bet is what the Devs are thinking.

I think we need to look at the part about "can't do normal but find LFR boring" if there's a good chance that they cant' do normal because they either don't want to learn the fight or their class, or do stuff like enchant and gem their gear, that just means that the new 4th mode will have to be really easy as well, and those people will probably end up finding that boring too, especially since they are then running the raids twice, which is one of the reasons the trial of the crusader raid was hated so much. I personally hope the devs don't waste time on this, would be worse IMO then all the time they spend with the pokemon mini game.

[isadorr]

It's not about one single person being unable to do Normals. It's about a casual group that doesn't kick people for being bad because they're friends that can't do Normal but find LFR boring. There's an actual niche for these people who have been used to raids like DS. The obvious solution is creating a difficulty for them rather than nerfing normals or buffing LFR, which I bet is what the Devs are thinking.

The obvious solution is that these people arent pushing progression and half the time are a tier behind so what does it really matter if they cant down a lot of bosses? They are in for friendship keeping bads around, not progression. They want to kill more than a few bosses they can do LFR or make changes. People are choosing to not progress, the difficulty isnt the problem.

They will clear like they always do, near the end of the expansion with it heavily nerfed.

[PtrPiper]

I think blizzard should learn from the 1.3 million subs they just lost that catering to the casual player may not be the best way to go. if normal is too hard for you run lfr for more gear or learn to play better because normal is a joke on any level 10 or 25m. The only option I could really see that isn't going to alienate other players is to add a third lesser difficulty with lesser gear than normal but higher than lfr. because to nerf 10m or nerf their loot is absurd you would alienate that entire playerbase and sorry to break it to the 25m's but there are wayyyy more 10m now. Although me personally I think the real option is leave it the way it is and if people cant learn to play good enough to handle normal they should just stop trying because normal is a joke. To dumb down the player base any further would just be sad lfr has done more than enough of that.

[isadorr]

I think we need to look at the part about "can't do normal but find LFR boring" if there's a good chance that they cant' do normal because they either don't want to learn the fight or their class, or do stuff like enchant and gem their gear, that just means that the new 4th mode will have to be really easy as well, and those people will probably end up finding that boring too, especially since they are then running the raids twice, which is one of the reasons the trial of the crusader raid was hated so much. I personally hope the devs don't waste time on this, would be worse IMO then all the time they spend with the pokemon mini game.

The word casual used so loosely. A casual can be a good player who doesnt play much anymore but does well when he does play, knows his class, spec/gemming, and so on.

Then you have the casual who says they have no time yet have farmed every pet, done all the pet battles, cleared old content and then farmed mounts. Choosing once again progression isnt important.

The casual who is outright lazy and wants everything handed to them because they have the ability to log in. Any attempt to help them is met with "Elitlist ass," I have a life, etc. Has thousands of forum posts but wont learn to play the class.

It doesnt matter how much they nerf it if people put zero effort out yet expect 100% in return.

[Deleted]

It doesnt matter how much they nerf it if people put zero effort out yet expect 100% in return.

Bazinga!

And we have had LFR tellings player for over a year that this is how it should work.

[Raone]

The obvious solution is that these people arent pushing progression and half the time are a tier behind so what does it really matter if they cant down a lot of bosses? They are in for friendship keeping bads around, not progression. They want to kill more than a few bosses they can do LFR or make changes. People are choosing to not progress, the difficulty isnt the problem.

They will clear like they always do, near the end of the expansion with it heavily nerfed.

Except with an easier difficulty nothing will need to be nerfed. There won't need to be a 10% nerf or a gradual increasing buff/debuff because there will already be that difficulty. When wrath ended and 10man was buffed there was a population of raiders who got left out (the friends/family raiders), at the end of Cata this came back to a degree when Dragonsoul was nerfed 20%+ nerf. Right now that doesn't exist in any form.

Some people rather raid with friends/family but they don't want to kick them as they would rather raid with those individuals then other people (wife/husbands, or kids, RL friends etc). Even though they do raid with those people solely because of these relationships if you hit a brick wall and have no hopes of passing it you will find something else to do and this is why groups fall apart. There is a group of raiders (and blizzard has mentioned this) that want to have Organized Social Raiding but normal is too difficult for them. LFR is very anti-social and requires no organization. An "Easy" difficulty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LFR in every way.

LFR needs to stop being mentioned at all because the point of LFR is for people who can't commit t a raid schedule, it is a solo experience ... not a raiding experience.

[RickJamesLich]

The word casual used so loosely. A casual can be a good player who doesnt play much anymore but does well when he does play, knows his class, spec/gemming, and so on.

Then you have the casual who says they have no time yet have farmed every pet, done all the pet battles, cleared old content and then farmed mounts. Choosing once again progression isnt important.

The casual who is outright lazy and wants everything handed to them because they have the ability to log in. Any attempt to help them is met with "Elitlist ass," I have a life, etc. Has thousands of forum posts but wont learn to play the class.

It doesnt matter how much they nerf it if people put zero effort out yet expect 100% in return.

Yeah, there is a strange thing going on where people call someone casual based upon their skill in the game when there are many people that do not play often but are still top ranked in pvp or are ahead of the curve on raid content. Likewise, people call LFR players casual often, when in fact, I wouldn't say they are casually playing because doing all 4 wings of LFR is a pretty hefty time investment.

These people still describe themselves as casual even though that isn't the case, as they have been playing often and likely for a long time... I think a new word needs to be invented lol, I propose "Long term bads"