View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1

    How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

    I didn't add a "keep it the way it is" option because blizzard said there is a gap between LFR and Normal and want to do something about it. They see a problem and will act on it eventually, I'm just curious what other players prefer.

    I think most of us know there is a sizable gap between LFR difficulty and Normal difficulty. Im a heroic raider (only 2/12h but still pushing and enjoying it!!) and I can even see it. Those new to the game, or those who just aren't as skilled or those that don't really have the time to play really only have LFR as a choice of raiding. Normal's aren't tuned for this and from the interview by Ion Hazzikostas (Lead Encounter Designer) (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...he-Daily-Blink) he agrees with this and sees an issue. It's going to happen, blizzard is going to do something about it as a large portion of the player base wants to raid socially but finds LFR too easy and/or antisocial and they can't quite make it in normal as it is too hard for them.

    The way I see it Blizzard will choose one of these 4 choices.
    A) Go back to the Wrath of the Lich King raid difficulty model, 10man is easier and drops inferior loot to 25m. They may or may not be seperate lockouts.
    B) Nerf normal modes in general so it'll be more like Dragonsoul
    C) Add the monthly increasing debuff in some form (Like dragonsoul)
    D) A Third difficulty, harder then LFR but easier the Normal, an "Easy" difficulty the shares a lockout with normal/heroic.

    More Info:

    A) 10m difficulty will be easier in the sense he raid damage will be much lower and required raid dps will be lower. Some mechanics may be less harsh (less adds spawning etc). The loot itself will be lower ilvl (maybe 8ilvl less?). They may or may not share a lockout with 25man.

    B) Dragonsoul normal was probably easiest normal ever, it wasn't that mechanically hard there was only a couple things you had to do and a lot of guilds who struggled in Firelands cleared Dragonsoul pretty quickly.

    C) After 2 months and every month after that the raid got a debuff that decreased the damage/health of everything by 5%, eventually it got to 35%( or 30%) and it became very puggable.

    D) Will work the same way as normal/heroic with a switch. Will drop either LFR or slightly better then LFR gear. Will share a lockout with normal and heroic so you have to choose. All the mechanics will still be there and still be mandatory (Tortos breathes will wipe you if not interupted) but maybe an extra second or two to interupt it, and raid HPS/DPS required will be lower. Like if the raid was already nerfed by 15% etc. This will remove the need to nerf normal mode at a future date and give pugs/family/friends/alt a place to raid socially. Because it can be cleared so quickly it can (and should) be gated like LFR.

    You can probably guess which one I want (D) as the other 3 have very harmful side effects. A) makes all current hardcoreish 10mans angry and probably quit (I am one of them, i will quit if they choose A, i enjoy the difficulty currently). B) will just make it too easy again and will clear Dragonsoul in a week on normal, and C) made everything too easy too. D) I honestly can't see any negatives except it being cleared quickly but if it shares the same gated system as LFR it will be perfect. I can see myself running it a lot with alts instead of LFR because I just can't stand LFR :P
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-16 at 10:37 PM.

  2. #2
    Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.
    Jsz
    <The Requiem> US-Horde Mythic
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.
    ^ gets my vote as well.

  4. #4
    Thirded on the "fine the way it is" option.

  5. #5
    None of the above.

  6. #6
    the problem is player created, if something is added to bridge the gap, the next threads we will see is "How can we lower the gap in between LFR+ & normal raiding"




    People want to Raid normals & heroics but can't put up with the time requirement and the difficulty & can't be satisfied unless they get what they want

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Thirded on the "fine the way it is" option.
    third option is how it is now, just that the nerfs have slower pace, previous tier is nerfed when the next one is released - t14 nerfed by 10% already

  8. #8
    Not sure what this "gap" is . . .
    I don't see a "gap"
    LFR has done what it was intended, casuals to see how a raid dungeon is
    If they are willing to spend time to study a boss fight and go through hours of wipes, they can step up to Heroics
    I left out normal, I don't think it should be there, it's a waste of time

  9. #9
    Sigh I put it in my post :P I Bolded it and put it at the top for you TLDR people

    They already said they are unhappy and said there is a gap between LFR and Normal, they said they want to do something about it. They will do something. There is no "None of the Above" or "Keep it the way it is" because in the interview you can clearly see they want to do something and plan to do something.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-16 at 10:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Limmy View Post
    Not sure what this "gap" is . . .
    I don't see a "gap"
    LFR has done what it was intended, casuals to see how a raid dungeon is
    If they are willing to spend time to study a boss fight and go through hours of wipes, they can step up to Heroics
    I left out normal, I don't think it should be there, it's a waste of time
    I agree and disagree. I think it's fine the way it is and working to fill the need of those that want to see the content without the commitment.

    Where I disagree, is with the removal of normal mode. If anything, loot should be removed from LFR because it was created so more people could see the content. Loot isn't a necessity to see the content. Leave the loot to those that invest the time and effort into defeating the bosses while they're actually a challenge, not with both eyes closed and one handed.

    Leave Normal in place for guilds that don't want the challenge, don't have the time to commit, or don't have the skill required to do Heroics. Make Heroics there for those that want that extra challenge, time commitment, or to just test their skills.

    TLR;
    LFR no loot for show
    Normal for the masses
    Heroic for the challenge

    Edit to answer OPs question;

    If they want to add something, I guess the best option you listed is the debuff. The single worst thing they could do is add in yet another raid difficulty. Having three is leading to gear hyperinflation like we've never seen.

    Vanilla went from 60 - 92 for level 60 gear or 32 ilvls
    TBC went from 95 - 164 for level 70 gear or 69 ilvls
    WotLK went from 187 - 284 for level 80 gear or 97 ilvls
    Cataclysm went from 312 - 416 for level 85 gear or 104 ilvls
    MoP went from 429 - 541 in ToT alone for level 90 or 112 ilvls already.

    Since we have at least one more raid, that number will be much more. The ilvl hyperinflation is a direct result of too many divisions as is.
    Last edited by Thetruth1400; 2013-05-16 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    I agree and disagree. I think it's fine the way it is and working to fill the need of those that want to see the content without the commitment.

    Where I disagree, is with the removal of normal mode. If anything, loot should be removed from LFR because it was created so more people could see the content. Loot isn't a necessity to see the content. Leave the loot to those that invest the time and effort into defeating the bosses while they're actually a challenge, not with both eyes closed and one handed.

    Leave Normal in place for guilds that don't want the challenge, don't have the time to commit, or don't have the skill required to do Heroics. Make Heroics there for those that want that extra challenge, time commitment, or to just test their skills.

    TLR;
    LFR no loot for show
    Normal for the masses
    Heroic for the challenge
    Except they won't do this, this isn't about what you guys want it's about what you prefer blizzard to do realistically. They won't remove LFR (kinda wish they would) or remove the gear from LFR. They do however want to do something about those who can't cut it for normal but want to raid as an organized group and it's a scary to think about what they could do.

  12. #12
    I think removing gear from LFR is one of the dumbest things I've heard on these forums and I'm a 13/13H raider with no incentive to run LFR. The gear is still horrible despite it's color and LFR is still in most cases much harder than say heroic 5mans. I have friends that have very little time to play that gear up mostly through LFR and they would probably stop playing if they maxed out in 463 blues. I don't blame them. Character progression is the driving force of MMOs and RPGs in general for the vast majority and it's not hurting anyone that people are getting really bad 502 epics from LFR.
    Last edited by mistahwilshire; 2013-05-16 at 10:40 PM.

  13. #13
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Probably a mix of all...plus something that nobody expected and it is creative - so people can hate on it....
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #14
    Either an easy mode for people to do who can't quite commit to normals (They are, no matter what you say really, too hard, coming from someone has cleared it)

    Or make make normals easier, but the problem there is that it will probably mean heroics are going to be easier too(Same people who complain about normals now will complain about heroics then), and the majority of heroic-raiders have reacted very well to the tuning of them this tier and the previous.

  15. #15
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    If anything, loot should be removed from LFR because it was created so more people could see the content. Loot isn't a necessity to see the content. e
    Meh..I bet if anyone at Blizzard actually said LFR is only there to see the content, i swear they regret it by now.

    That said: Why not remove loot from heroic content? Clearly the "bads" (nudge nudge wink wink) need loot to progress because they are bad. True hardcores don't need loot - as proven by Paragon, Method et al who cleared HMs back in 5.0 in ilv 463 plus one week in normal raids.

    Don't we all agree that skill > gear?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  16. #16
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    I think another difficulty is really out of the question. Blizzard has said in the past that even the current model is a lot like putting out more bosses than the 12 (+1) we get because each needs to be tuned individually. Unless they want to add a progressive buff to every tier, it really just needs to be a matter of step your game up. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to complete normals by the end of the tier when they're spending hours every week on it unless they're physically or mentally handicapped (and that isn't to say such people couldn't complete it).

  17. #17
    We really doing need to add any more difficulty levels imo. Just make normal mode easier so that its back to being pug friendly. Lfr right now is tuned how normal modes were in dragon soul and earlier so simply dropping lfr difficulty and changing normal's to how lfr is and leave heroic as is for the heroic raiders and everyone can be happy.

  18. #18
    People are crazy if they think is fine the way it is.

    Hell don't get me wrong, i'm not some casual player i'm in a guild downing heroic bosses, but i'm only 5/12 and that's poor in my effort, why only 5/12 well that's because i lost some players and in turn lost my 10man raiding guild and had to go else were to keep raiding with friends, the point of that is there is a lack of raiders because there isn't a way to bridge people into becoming better players as easy, now honestly its not rocket science, it really is not, in my point of view this game is easy, really damn easy, i have fun in actually planning strategy for the bosses, but hell that's me, i don't class my self as the average wow player, the average wow player is hopeless.

    Normal mode is at a excellent standard in difficulty that at this point forces you to do t14 to gear your self if your not a the level it requires, the skill requirements are there as well as the gear requirements and its a good stepping stone into heroics, the problem here is there isn't a stepping stone into normal, well not one that people see, after the last few expansions "catch up" models people don't really want to raid the previous tier, or hell some people already have been and want a change.

    Adding a easy mode seems to be the smartest options, it doesn't have to mean gear level inflation, they can easily just have the ilv straight between normal and lfr & if they decided to keep the "thunderforge deal" (they seriously better drop that shit in 5.4 raid, its cool when u get one but serious blizz wtf were u thinking) they could have the TF ilv be same as normal, easy mode shouldn't be to hard to tune either, obviously its a pain 2 more difficulties for blizzard to work on, but i mean all they need to do is reduce the damage/health of bosses from normal mode say idk 15% and then simply add more reaction time for most mechanics, slower casts, most time to avoid ground mechanics before taking damage, and of course maybe staggering mechanics slightly more so they don't overwhelm newer players.

    Blizzard is well aware of these issues but getting ToT up to skill level of previous expansions, they arn't catering to the newb players they created in cata as well as Lk 10M.

    It so obvious that a change needs to be made, and i'm sure they will make one, but i can tell you if they add a easy mode, all it will do is add a hell of a lot more raiders, on thing if they did add a easy mode it would be nice if it was enabled for cross realm raiding even in the current tier.

    I think the hardest point about easy would be how does it work, do you do the whole instance on easy? can you switch bosses back and thought from normal to easy?? Assuming easy is unlocked at the same time as normal, of course these might be things blizzard is thinking about already with normal/heroic give then most hardcode raiders just want heroic and normal to open at the same time.

    Which then makes things like really weird, if you just doing it on normal mode, and you going threw the paces, would people then switch it to easy to get past a boss? once you switch it to easy, could they go back to normal, with same rules as heroic you obviously can't do the final boss without completing the rest on normal?

    So many questions, either way i think easy is the next best step to get more people into raiding, get them enjoying it and killing bosses, then they will move to doing more research to kill harder bosses, and more to normal, and then maybe heroic.

    Either way, people shouldn't be arrogant and think that raiding should be only for really good players any more, i say give something for the new players and the bad players, its there game as well and they should be able to enjoy raiding even if they suck at it, LFR is a snooze fest for even shit players, can't blame em, easy mode might actually be cool.
    Last edited by Hexz; 2013-05-16 at 10:51 PM.

  19. #19
    Like Hexz touched on, raiding T14 is the difficulty between LFR and Normal T15, as well as the bridge for the gear gap. I know of far too many friends and family guilds that failed in T14 at Normal Garalon and never got past that and then tried immediately progressing in to ToT normals in their mostly normal MSV gear. While it's possible to down Normal ToT in that gear, they clearly aren't the most skilled of raid groups if they got stuck on normal Garalon but the fact remains that they don't want to go back to that content even though it's now the desired difficulty they seek.

    Farming Normal/Heroic HoF and ToES for a couple weeks will do WONDERS for the friends and family normal guilds out there getting their asses kicked in normal ToT. People just don't see that.

    Everyone kicked and screamed for TBC-like progression to come back and for the most part they got it. Now they're mad that they can't clear current content when they haven't even finished the previous tier. Just like all the people that were mad they were getting stomped in Black Temple when they had only killed 4 bosses in SSC and TK combined.
    Last edited by mistahwilshire; 2013-05-16 at 11:08 PM.

  20. #20
    For me 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot. would be best. I like 25m raiding but there are none left on my servers even though they are average populated. AND weekly workout with some tiny group of picked socialized people to fool around with in vent while clearing(!!!) an easy 10m version. Drinking having fun and even not flaming Gustav, who is really bad but somehow adds value to the group

    If I would care about other people I would say add another difficulty level.

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