View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

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  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.
    This gets my vote all day long. We arent even half way through this tier yet (5.3 will be all about raiding ToT as well). There is lots of time to get to where you want to be.

  2. #22
    Just because they said it doesn't mean it's there.

  3. #23
    Brewmaster
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    There isn't any gap. Normal raiding is normal raiding. By that it means that you'll most often than not have to follow schedules and tactics in order to proceed. Which it should be. LFR is a lot more flexible and a great way of introducing the raiding scene and showing off the instances for those that may or may not have the time to raid on a scheduled basis.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexz View Post
    Normal mode is at a excellent standard in difficulty that at this point forces you to do t14 to gear your self if your not a the level it requires,
    You can kill the first few bosses with an average raid ilvl of like 480. Our alt group with horribly played alts is 8/12 normal with a 505 avg ilvl.

  5. #25
    It's fine the way it is, having a 4th mode is silly, why not add 10 modes then?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Everyone kicked and screamed for TBC-like progression to come back and for the most part they got it. Now they're mad that they can't clear current content when they haven't even finished the previous tier. Just like all the people that were mad they were getting stomped in Black Temple when they had only killed 4 bosses in SSC and TK combined.
    ^QFT

    The Kara farmers of yesteryear are now whining that they are getting what they wanted. Seriously can't imagine how MSV/HoF can be hard now if you even just have 502 gear from LFR. Go back and farm the old nerfed raids, even on Heroic they will be easier to learn/get gear from than current raids. Normal IS the easy mode you're free to progress through with any organisation or skill level beyond "none". Yeah you might not clear it until near the end of the tier (bear in mind you have all of next patch to do it in as well) but hey, that's part of the fun. You have a perfectly fun and interesting raid to progress through for 6 months and you think it's a bad deal because you can't instantly stomp it when you have no gear, skill or organisation? That is what LFR is for. Normal modes are for a step up from that and heroic raids are basically the proper content that you can eventually work up to. Not everyone's going to down every heroic boss. That might mean you. I know I won't, I just mainly PVP. I go into Normal for herps and derps and still kill several bosses in a total pug without any real trouble. If you can't even do that then I'm sorry but you're just being bad. Leave the system as it is.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  7. #27
    Add heroics so ppl can gear up without LFR and it's RNG.
    Keep normal and heroic like it is, maybe lower the aoe dmg in 10m allitle.

    i'm atm at 9/12 normal and appart from some fights the progression is going well.
    tho the kinda made some fights just fing walls... council and mageara are hard untill ppl get gear or learn the fight perfectly
    and drumu and his damm maze that doesn't show properly untill you set your settings on low...
    http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4...4841599821.jpg the boy that will forever be named the HHD wiper. R.I.P

  8. #28
    If you have a combination of LFR and VP gear and have a hard time in normal mode ToT, it's not the gear that's the problem and a 4th mode won't solve the issues.

  9. #29
    Dreadlord
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    I think that gap, if there is any, should stay the way it is. There is no path between "I don´t give a crap about encounter-mechanics but I want epics" and "I want epics and I´m willing to put some afford into it".

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    It's fine the way it is, having a 4th mode is silly, why not add 10 modes then?
    You know when they first added heroics in bc, they added up the ability for there to be up to 10 version of the same npc, they use 6 of those versions in MoP now, i'm pretty sure they will be happy to fill up the other slots your irony is funny because without any clue you actually touched pm a real number? Why not is a great question, the answer is simply time and resources, many games have very easy, easy, normal, hard, very hard, insane and all degrees of difficulty so um having a 4th option is barely CRAZZZZZZZEEE

    Quote Originally Posted by Pancha View Post
    There isn't any gap. Normal raiding is normal raiding. By that it means that you'll most often than not have to follow schedules and tactics in order to proceed. Which it should be. LFR is a lot more flexible and a great way of introducing the raiding scene and showing off the instances for those that may or may not have the time to raid on a scheduled basis.
    What world are you living in, its funny people think by saying that normal is easy it means they are great players, I've got new for you and everyone out there, the really good players, are the ones that can see how much of the step up in difficulty this tiers normal mode was to the previous, hell i still class it as normal and easy, but i'm smart enough to see the difficulty improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    You can kill the first few bosses with an average raid ilvl of like 480. Our alt group with horribly played alts is 8/12 normal with a 505 avg ilvl.
    Sure you can, you are also completely ignoring the fact that you don't have to learn and of the mechanics because its a "alt" group, so you can simply sit there and focus on learning how to play your horribly geared alts.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    If you have a combination of LFR and VP gear and have a hard time in normal mode ToT, it's not the gear that's the problem and a 4th mode won't solve the issues.
    Why would you think a 4th mode wouldn't solve the issue, so you are saying there problem is mechanics are to much to handle, pretty sure they solve that with a 4th mode more time to react, few overlapping abilities.
    Last edited by Hexz; 2013-05-16 at 11:37 PM.

  11. #31
    A lot of people just plain aren't getting it, or don't understand what they mean by "the gap".

    ICC was probably the height of organized raid participation. The main enemy of organized raiding is scheduling/commitment, which is what LFR was intended to address. LFR however created a new problem, in that it sort of became. the death of organized raid pugging.

    Fast forward to today, raid pugging is difficult because 10N is indeed "too hard", or at least in the sense that it is too much of a departure (in terms of overall difficulty and difference in encounter mechanics) from LFR, from which is the pool of players that an organized pug would likely draw from.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Pancha View Post
    There isn't any gap. Normal raiding is normal raiding. By that it means that you'll most often than not have to follow schedules and tactics in order to proceed. Which it should be. LFR is a lot more flexible and a great way of introducing the raiding scene and showing off the instances for those that may or may not have the time to raid on a scheduled basis.
    LFR teaches you nothing and is a terrible way to introduce players into raiding because other then Durumu's lazer you don't need to do anything. Most mechanics only 1-3 people need to do, the rest of the time you can afk in a Megaera fire pool and dps the blue head and wonder why it's never dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by zenyatta View Post
    Just because they said it doesn't mean it's there.
    It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They believe there is and intend on doing something about it. That's really all that matters.
    And yes there is a gap, LFR isn't remotely challenging at all and a lot of the mechanics that make the fight are guttered or removed completely.

    And I do realize t14 exists but try finding players who want to do it still while LFR ToT drops 502 gear which is superior and easier to get then t14 :P

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    I agree and disagree. I think it's fine the way it is and working to fill the need of those that want to see the content without the commitment.

    Where I disagree, is with the removal of normal mode. If anything, loot should be removed from LFR because it was created so more people could see the content. Loot isn't a necessity to see the content. Leave the loot to those that invest the time and effort into defeating the bosses while they're actually a challenge, not with both eyes closed and one handed.

    Leave Normal in place for guilds that don't want the challenge, don't have the time to commit, or don't have the skill required to do Heroics. Make Heroics there for those that want that extra challenge, time commitment, or to just test their skills.

    TLR;
    LFR no loot for show
    Normal for the masses
    Heroic for the challenge

    Edit to answer OPs question;

    If they want to add something, I guess the best option you listed is the debuff. The single worst thing they could do is add in yet another raid difficulty. Having three is leading to gear hyperinflation like we've never seen.

    Vanilla went from 60 - 92 for level 60 gear or 32 ilvls
    TBC went from 95 - 164 for level 70 gear or 69 ilvls
    WotLK went from 187 - 284 for level 80 gear or 97 ilvls
    Cataclysm went from 312 - 416 for level 85 gear or 104 ilvls
    MoP went from 429 - 541 in ToT alone for level 90 or 112 ilvls already.

    Since we have at least one more raid, that number will be much more. The ilvl hyperinflation is a direct result of too many divisions as is.
    Another stupid person who ignores what LFR is there for.
    The problem with LFR is the seperate loot lockout.
    It should not be simply an easy additional route for gear and a raiding experience, but an option for whom normal is not.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    If they want to add something, I guess the best option you listed is the debuff. The single worst thing they could do is add in yet another raid difficulty. Having three is leading to gear hyperinflation like we've never seen.

    Vanilla went from 60 - 92 for level 60 gear or 32 ilvls
    TBC went from 95 - 164 for level 70 gear or 69 ilvls
    WotLK went from 187 - 284 for level 80 gear or 97 ilvls
    Cataclysm went from 312 - 416 for level 85 gear or 104 ilvls
    MoP went from 429 - 541 in ToT alone for level 90 or 112 ilvls already.

    Since we have at least one more raid, that number will be much more. The ilvl hyperinflation is a direct result of too many divisions as is.
    I actually agree the ilvl hyperinflation is a problem however adding a difficulty inbetween already existing difficulties wouldn't inflate anything. It could just be LFR ilvl (502) or slightly higher like Thunderforged LFR (508-510 etc).

  15. #35
    Problem is many people don't want to get better, they rather quit. Blizzard doesn't want them to quit and they know those people would play the game (even completely different) if they were to change difficulty. There are almost none guilds left that are stuck. Most already quit with t14 and now with t15 numbers decreased even more. Number of pugs falls at the same rate.
    That's the base of blizzards shoutout.

    It's not about quality content it's about "content for a certain mindset". It's kinda like Dota in Wc3 or generally funmaps back in days. Many people don't play ladder, they don't want to get better yet they enjoy playing a part of the game in their own way (or they play mass random team...). Blizzard thinks WoW once had it and lost it. Now they want to get it back. This part is what people did in DS, Karazhan, 10m WotlK, UBRS etc.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    It doesn't matter if it's true or not. They believe there is and intend on doing something about it. That's really all that matters.
    And yes there is a gap, LFR isn't remotely challenging at all and a lot of the mechanics that make the fight are guttered or removed completely.

    And I do realize t14 exists but try finding players who want to do it still while LFR ToT drops 502 gear which is superior and easier to get then t14 :P
    The question asked how WE would like it handled. My answer is that I see no gap, and see no reason to "fix" anything. You can get almost everything from VP and SPA rep, +Nalak and Oon loot. There's nothing to bridge. If you can't progress as it is now, you need to really go over your raid team/strategies with a fine toothed comb.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixxy View Post
    You can kill the first few bosses with an average raid ilvl of like 480. Our alt group with horribly played alts is 8/12 normal with a 505 avg ilvl.
    Sorry, but if you did it at this item level then the alts were not "horribly played". Maybe they were played worse than your mains, but you still would have played much much MUCH MUCH better than the average World of Warcraft player.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by zenyatta View Post
    The question asked how WE would like it handled. My answer is that I see no gap, and see no reason to "fix" anything. You can get almost everything from VP and SPA rep, +Nalak and Oon loot. There's nothing to bridge. If you can't progress as it is now, you need to really go over your raid team/strategies with a fine toothed comb.
    Which is great but blizzard already stated they intend on doing something, so as much as you want them to "do nothing" they will be doing something. I personally want LFR to be completely changed, increase it's difficulty and remove the ability to que for it so you need to form a raid to join it but they will never do it so why waste my breath. They intend on doing something for the "beer raiders".

    And I can't see how anyone can't see a gap between the two ... LFR literally has almost no mechanics and the few that do exist 1-2 people can do while the rest can stand in everything without fear of getting killed. The raid damage you can probably 3 heal and the DPS requirements are so low I've never seen an enrage timer even with half the raid dead and many doing 20-30kdps. I didn't find normals all that hard but I can clearly see a gap.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-17 at 12:03 AM.

  19. #39
    Elemental Lord Chickat's Avatar
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    Honestly. I would rather they make 10 mans easier and drop loot 3-6 item levels lower. Perhaps it could work even if 10 mans were like 25% easier then 25 mans, and had 0% chance to drop thunderforged items. 25 mans have like a 25% chance for an item to be thunderforged which would increase the items level by 6-9 points. I think that would be enough honestly, and for god sake give 25 man and 10 man separate achievements and progression. They should be different races completely. I dont think its a good idea to go back to wrath style non shared lockouts though. People complain about MoP being to grindy. Can you imagine the QQ.
    Send me a PM and suggest a forum avatar based on my title, Immortal.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    I think removing gear from LFR is one of the dumbest things I've heard on these forums and I'm a 13/13H raider with no incentive to run LFR. The gear is still horrible despite it's color and LFR is still in most cases much harder than say heroic 5mans. I have friends that have very little time to play that gear up mostly through LFR and they would probably stop playing if they maxed out in 463 blues. I don't blame them. Character progression is the driving force of MMOs and RPGs in general for the vast majority and it's not hurting anyone that people are getting really bad 502 epics from LFR.
    While I think 502 gear is certainly decent, I otherwise agree with everything you say.

    I just don't get the 'remove loot' mentality of some people: its inferior in every way to even normal mode drops and pretty much crushed by Thunderforged/heroic. I guess its the age old mentality of being an idiot who wants to be able to parade their gear under the noses of the 'lessers'.

    The only players whose gear I care about are the players I raid with. Otherwise? I could not care any less. Run LFR and get 5 bags of 502 gear for all I care. Your account = your business. Those of you sitting around mad and red in the face, over the pretend gear of the pretend characters that complete strangers play, need to grow up. Badly.

    And to the stupid 'lolfaceroll' comments, there have been some brutally hard LFR fights. You can't go through Lei Shen, Durumu, Garalon, and several others by 'facerolling'. Lei Shen is, IMO, harder in LFR than some normal mode bosses. Which I think is good personally.

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