How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

there was no t14 pugs on my server till it got nerfed coz it was too hard and ther also isnt any t15 pug and i think itll stay thta way till its nerfed

I think the LFR is the real villain here, however the shared lockout played its part. As others mentioned. Instead of splitting the lockouts in Cata into 10 or 25, they should have split the lockouts in normal or heroic.
So you could do say 25HC and 10N on the same week, but not both on heroic or both on normal. 1 heroic lockout, 1 normal. That would have been great.

If T14 and T15 was in WotLK, there would have been pugs clearing fully normal and a large part of the heroic content.

There are sometimes 12/12 pugs on my server for T15.
In T14 my guild used pugs due to low roster (3-4 pugs) to achieve 5/6 HC in MSV.

Still, the issue is not that it is to hard. The issue is that the people that got the capability to make pugs, already got guilds and due to 1 lockout they are already saved with the guild. Pugging is just dead because of how the raidlockout system is designed, not the difficulty. Ultimately LFR was the killing blow to pugs. Since that ruined the incentive to run pugs. Why waste effort into making a pug when you can click a button and get free epics.

I think it is funny how blizzard is saying "LFR worked out fine, a lot of people are doing it!"

Yes! Because people feel forced to do it. If I could skip LFR in gear up process, I would, but I have to.
Recently dinged a new 90. Now I have to run nine, NINE lfrs each week. That is just so bloody annoying that i do not have time to do anything else on that alt. Spending almost 9 hours in queue as a result aswell.
Even though I do not need gear from MSV, I still have to do it for the sigils for the legendary.

I would be interested in seeing how many people would do LFRs if it didnt give any loot. Or if the epics was 5 man HC level, 463 ilvl. (which really they should be, LFR is not harder than 5 mans). How many people would run LFR then? How 'successful' would LFR be if it did not force people to do it? I would never ever ever ever step my foot into LFR if it didn't give me a significant advantage gearing up.

LFR should not give worthy loot.
LFR should not give pieces to the legendary quest chain.

[Kazgrel]

They are on the cusp of a reasonable solution, IMO:

Loot tables are shared by both 10 and 25. Let 25 loot all be "thunderforged", 10 man loot be "normal" or whatever. Get rid of the shared lockout garbage. Merge some of the lower pop servers together, so that they have a reasonable pool of players to pick from to pug. That way, if a 10 man guild wants to remain 10 man (instead of feeling "forced" to move up to 25), they can opt to pug 25 man.

I don't expect any of this to happen, though.

[Raelbo]

I have mixed feelings on this one.

I tend to agree that the game needs to cater for genuinely casual social raiders (as opposed to fake casuals who "only" raid 3 times a week). At the moment, the game does that just fine because t14 is at a decent difficulty for that crowd. The problem was at the start of the expansion when the first raid boss was the Stone Guard, which happened to be pretty brutal on many guilds and therefore prevented any kind of progression unless your entire team was at a certain level of expertise.


One possible solution is to give certain raids an ICC/DS type buff, but make it optional to activate at a cost. The cost should be something like reduced loot (either ilevel or number of items), reduced VP for a kill, inelligibility for achievements.

Maybe LFR level of difficulty, rewards and constraints but setup for 10 mans and with the ability to use the LFR tool and shares a lockout with normal/heroic modes. It's should really be aimed at people with LFR level of ability but who want to avoid a mob of random players.

[shise]

The gap is... non existent.

LFR is faceroll while you afk to eat or anything.

Normal mode is face roll not being afk.

[Deathgoose]

Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.

That seems to be an obvious, yet lacking, option.

+1 to that from myself as well.

[Whiskra]

Decrease the raidsize in LFR to 10 man instead of 25 man and increase the difficulty in LFR slightly, to say, Naxx25 levels, or perhaps Malygos levels. This will remove the faceroll aspect LFR promotes today (yes, I'm saying Naxx25 and Malygos wasn't complete faceroll back in the day), force people to learn organizing and learning fights, as well as their roles and classes, because the responsibilites become more focused. And hopefully people will feel there is no longer a so called "gap" between the difficulties. Normal doesn't need any nerfs. It's the players that are the problem, thus they need to focus on improving the average player.

[Ruffles]

If they add easy version of normal mode, it will become a must for heroic raiders to gear up and get ready for heroic modes. It's going to be even worse for hardcore guilds which run the same raid few times on their alts + mains.

If people need gear they should run previous tier's heroic modes (tier 14 in this case) and if gear is not the problem, then people gotta improve on playing their class better and not dying too much to stuff.

[Raelbo]

I think the LFR is the real villain here, however the shared lockout played its part.

I don't believe so. If anything LFR helps to fill the gap and cater to some people. Do you honestly think that any "real" raider believes that LFR is a perfect substitute for normal/heroic modes? I think most LFR raiders accept LFR as a compromise that works for them because they cannot raid normal/heroic even if they wanted to. It's highly probable that most raiders who stopped raiding normal/heroic when LFR came into being were people who were unlikely to continue raiding anyway. At least LFR gave them something else to do.

As others mentioned. Instead of splitting the lockouts in Cata into 10 or 25, they should have split the lockouts in normal or heroic.
So you could do say 25HC and 10N on the same week, but not both on heroic or both on normal. 1 heroic lockout, 1 normal. That would have been great.

By that logic, why force both 10 and 25 man? Why not just allow 10N and 10HC? Sorry, but the shared lockouts were a very good idea. Instead of having your difficulty setting determined by your raid size, allow people to choose the difficulty of their content independently of their raid size preference.

Still, the issue is not that it is to hard. The issue is that the people that got the capability to make pugs, already got guilds and due to 1 lockout they are already saved with the guild. Pugging is just dead because of how the raidlockout system is designed, not the difficulty.

While I hear your reasoning, I don't think you are correct. If someone wants to be able to clear the raid twice a week with pugs, they can roll an alt to do so. Honestly, the only reason people used to pug ICC10 was because the felt forced to (something you seem to think is a bad thing).

Ultimately LFR was the killing blow to pugs. Since that ruined the incentive to run pugs. Why waste effort into making a pug when you can click a button and get free epics.

LFR does not give the same rewards as a normal raid. People avoid pugs because they are a hassle. Always have been. If pugs took a knock due to LFR, it's not because of LFR. It's because the pug experience was lacking.

I think it is funny how blizzard is saying "LFR worked out fine, a lot of people are doing it!"

Yes! Because people feel forced to do it. If I could skip LFR in gear up process, I would, but I have to.

That is tired argument that had some merit at the beginning Dragon Soul. With the tweaks they have done in MoP, and particularly ToT, there is absolutely no reason to feel compelled to LFR because it no longer offers an exclusive way to get an advantage to anyone who needs that advantage. If you are in a top guild, you'd already have superior gear to LFR gear at the start of ToT. Because ToT LFR released its wings very slowly, all the top guilds would be getting all their reputation and legendary items from normal/heroic runs and wouldn't need to do LFR for it. If you're not in a top guild, you don't actually "need" to get every advantage in the game.

In short: If you are a raider for whom running LFR would give you an advantage, you aren't playing at a high enough level to justify forcing your raiders to do LFR.

Recently dinged a new 90. Now I have to run nine, NINE lfrs each week. That is just so bloody annoying that i do not have time to do anything else on that alt. Spending almost 9 hours in queue as a result aswell.
Even though I do not need gear from MSV, I still have to do it for the sigils for the legendary.

I....am....almost....speechless.

Seriously, how can you possibly argue that you have to run those LFRs? Kindly explain what exactly drives that need? I can accept the argument that a competitive raider needs to have a well geared main, but as I already demonstrated, you don't even have to do LFR with your main. Methinks you are too eager to elevate optional content to the level of need.

I would be interested in seeing how many people would do LFRs if it didnt give any loot. Or if the epics was 5 man HC level, 463 ilvl. (which really they should be, LFR is not harder than 5 mans). How many people would run LFR then?

How many people would run 5 mans, normal raids or heroic raids if they didn't drop loot?

How 'successful' would LFR be if it did not force people to do it? I would never ever ever ever step my foot into LFR if it didn't give me a significant advantage gearing up.

I think you need to look up the word "force". There is nothing in LFR that forces anyone to do it. The rewards on offer from LFR may be enticing to many players but far from compelling for any purpose other than LFR itself.

If you "need" to run LFR it is because of situation you have created for yourself by your own choices/actions. Punishing the masses of players who actually enjoy LFR because of a situation you created is hardly fair.

LFR should not give worthy loot.

Why?

So that you don't need to feel like you have to do it (when the truth is you don't actually have to do it)?
So that all those LFR no-lifers can get punished?

LFR should not give pieces to the legendary quest chain.

Why? Who is it hurting? What is your logic here?

If you already do normal mode raiding, you don't need to do LFR. If you don't do normal/heroic raiding, LFR gives you an option to progress your legendary quest chain. It is still a ton of work to get it, grinding LFR week after week. But it's entirely optional because let's face it: The people who really "need" the legendaries don't get any benefit from it being in LFR.



Seriously your agenda with these proposed "improvements" to LFR can be summarised as follows:

"I don't like LFR. It's not fun. I want Blizzard to take out all the stuff in LFR that makes it fun for other people, then you'll see that I am right."

[hulkgor]

There isn't a gap. ToT normal is absolutely basic as long as you have minimal gear for it.

[Enchanter]

I would love to be able to go back to the Wrath style raiding, 10m and 25m separate lockouts, I can raid 10m with my guild then pug a 25 man on the weekends if i feel like it. 10m was easier and you could see the content then in 25 man pugs you could pick up a few pieces of gear to help improve your performance in 10m. Blizz can still keep the LFR mode for those that can't raid regular night and make that gear lower than 10m. And for those that like hard modes, make them triggerable a la Ulduar. At least then it would require some effort instead of turning on a switch.

[Deleted]

The gap is... non existent.

LFR is faceroll while you afk to eat or anything.

Normal mode is face roll not being afk.

./sigh

No it is not, if you are a 16/16H Tier 14 guild then yes Normal is total utter faceroll, gratz to you.

I used to be healing leader, in a Server Second (working on pre-nerf Muru) guild during Vanilla and TBC.

At the start of WotLK we got really hardcore to be "Server First at all cost" (we had a complete arse join out leadership) at this point I left and joined friends on the Horde side.

We have a couple of ex hardcore raiders and a few casual players we raid once or twice a week, and we have a very consistent team that has not really changed since WotLK.

We killed everything but Sha in T14, in cata we killed everything in Normal apart from Nef and Rag while it was "current" content.

Normal ToT is way overturned for a guild like us.

Especially Horridon. I really really dislike the fact there is such a road block in normal that is 2nd in the instance. It is EXTREMELY disheartening and frustrating.

It would be fine if a fight like this was further along the instance but to have it second just leaves us in the situation where we get 1 boss down and smash our face into Horridon.

Do we have a couple of people that are lowish dps or make some mistakes, sure we 100% do, but we are NOT the sort of guild that kicks people from raids from "doing there best but not being elite" though.

I thought normals where aimed at guilds like us, it is very clear they are not.

So where does that leave people like us, do LFR or quit?

[Banawani]

Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.

Nothing needs changing.

./sigh

No it is not, if you are a 16/16H Tier 14 guild then yes Normal is total utter faceroll, gratz to you.

I used to be healing leader, in a Server Second (working on pre-nerf Muru) guild during Vanilla and TBC.

At the start of WotLK we got really hardcore to be "Server First at all cost" (we had a complete arse join out leadership) at this point I left and joined friends on the Horde side.

We have a couple of ex hardcore raiders and a few casual players we raid once or twice a week, and we have a very consistent team that has not really changed since WotLK.

We killed everything but Sha in T14, in cata we killed everything in Normal apart from Nef and Rag while it was "current" content.

Normal ToT is way overturned for a guild like us.

Especially Horridon. I really really dislike the fact there is such a road block in normal that is 2nd in the instance. It is EXTREMELY disheartening and frustrating.

It would be fine if a fight like this was further along the instance but to have it second just leaves us in the situation where we get 1 boss down and smash our face into Horridon.

Do we have a couple of people that are low dps or make some mistakes, sure we 100% do, but we are NOT the sort of guild that kicks people from raids from "doing there best but not being elite" though.

I thought normals where aimed at guilds like us, it is very clear they are not.

So where does that leave people like us, do LFR or quit?

So they should change other people's gameplay (Normal only guilds) because you can't kill a simple boss?

He has an incredibly long enrage timer, giving you plenty of time to kill it. Follow a strategy and you'll kill it.

[Fenixdown]

They should go back to the ICC model, but just make the loot the same items with lower item level. Honestly, all they got from the ICC backlash was "gear is higher item level in 25, fix please"...what the problem was that the 25-man gear had higher item level and better stat optimization than 10-man. Deathbringer's Will was by far the best trinket for any melee except ret pallies, period. There was no comparison to it on normal even in ICC 10 heroic since no other trinket had the armor penetration on it. For most healers, the trinket from 25-man ToTC was superior to any healing trinket in 10-man, normal or heroic. The 10-man loot being lower item level whouldn't have been such an issue if the drops were the same items.

[Deleted]

So they should change other people's gameplay (Normal only guilds) because you can't kill a simple boss?

He has an incredibly long enrage timer, giving you plenty of time to kill it. Follow a strategy and you'll kill it.

No bosses should get harder as you progress through the instance.

Not just BAM brick wall of a 2nd boss.

I don't really care about being 12/12 before 5.4 I care about making some progression and not being frustrated.

I guess you can't see that though since you just faceroll everything right?

Did you read my post? Where I clearly stated that we cleared 95% of all other normal content while it was current? And that our team has hardly changed in 4 years.

The fact ToT is totally linear and is the only 5.3 raid does not help the situation either.

[klaps_05]

i dont rly see the gap anymore - ive been running an alt strictly with crafted/lfr gear and with ~501-3 ilevel you can easily do enough dmg in normal modes

[Raelbo]

There isn't a gap. ToT normal is absolutely basic as long as you have minimal gear for it.

Have you any idea of how condescending that statement is? ToT normal is absolutely basic for the top 1% of players maybe - people who have put thousands of hours of effort into their game to elevate themselves to that level, but certainly not for most people.

In my guild, a genuinely casual guild, there are at most 3 of us who are up to the task of participating in ToT normal progression. The rest of the guys simply don't play enough to get the gear or the skill necessary to down the first boss, let alone waltz through the place.

There is absolutely a gap. In ICC you had 4 levels of difficulty that a group of people could participate in. 10 man normal, 25 man normal, 10 man hc, 25 man hc. Now you have basically 2 difficulties, normal an heroic.

LFR is an easier difficulty level, but it isn't ideal for small guilds of casuals who want something at that difficulty level, but who don't want to join a LFR group.


Now whether or not this is a serious problem, I don't know. We are fine doing T14 raids which are at about the level our guild can collectively handle. However it was a bit of an issue, and frustrating for the entire guild at the start of MoP. I am a bit divided on my response to our own situation. I could have got cross at my friends for not being as organised as I was. I could have left my guild and found a group at my level and cleared T14 and a few Heroic modes. Or I could have stuck it out with my friends (which is what I did).

I accept that it was my decision and that if it was that important for me to progress through T14 at my potential, I could have chosen to do so. I accept that my friends have only themselves to blame for not being able to make progress in T14 because they never put in the needed work.

That being said, WoW is a game. I think that my friends would have enjoyed T14 a lot more if there had been some 10 man content tuned to their level of play which we could have done as a group. Something at the difficulty (and reward) level of LFR but without being grouped with 15 strangers.

Although I would personally prefer to progress through 10 man normal then onto heroic content myself, the more I think about it, the more I would support the idea of a 10 man difficulty setting at the equivalent level of LFR, with the same loot table as LFR, sharing a lockout with normal/heroic.

It really shouldn't be that difficult for the devs to tune it, because it would have the same subset of mechanics as LFR, and the damage/hp of bosses would be reduced by the same ratio from 10 man normal as LFR is from 25 man normal. All the loot is already made, so they don't have to do anything there. Sharing a lockout with normal/heroic is fine. It's there for guilds and pugs who aren't running normal/heroic anyway, and you don't want to "force" normal/heroic raiders to run the easy mode as well.

[Balazaar]

There is a way to get a difficulty between LFR and normal ... make an LFR that can only be joined as a pre-made group AND can be done with any number of people you like. 25 LFR too easy? Take only 20 people, or 13, or whatever. No changes to bosses at all. No changes to loot at all. The reward? More loot per person when you take less people.

[cyqu]

E) take away lfr, now there is no gap.

[Shivaji]

It is fine the way it is. There should be a gap between LFR and Normal Raiding. I do not see any need for a distinction between 10 and 25 raiding either.

[Raelbo]

No bosses should get harder as you progress through the instance.

Not just BAM brick wall of a 2nd boss.

I don't really care about being 12/12 before 5.4 I care about making some progression and not being frustrated.

I guess you can't see that though since you just faceroll everything right?

Did you read my post? Where I clearly stated that we cleared 95% of all other normal content while it was current? And that our team has hardly changed in 4 years.

The fact ToT is totally linear and is the only 5.3 raid does not help the situation either.

I am 100% with you mate. I don't get why some people on this forum find it so hard to understand and accept that not everyone is the same.

I think a bit more empathy from some folks would go a long way around here.