View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
757. This poll is closed
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are correct, I have been distracted by fools. Admittedly they tried to get around what i was saying by attacking me rather than what I was saying, but it was less than smart to even notice they were doing it. Never raise it again.

    back to the issue at hand - LFR (which will carry on) and normals (which will carry on) have a gap between them.

    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?

    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    End of thread right here.

    Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

    How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?
    An easy mode isn't the option, as that would end up just being too easy as well. As I already said, heroic scenarios, tier 14 raids, challenge modes, and northern barrens are 4 options - if people want to cross their arms and say "oh well, I don't want to do any of them, so I'm just going to sit here and be miserable", well, it's not blizzard's fault at that point, now is it?

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are correct, I have been distracted by fools. Admittedly they tried to get around what i was saying by attacking me rather than what I was saying, but it was less than smart to even notice they were doing it. Never raise it again.

    back to the issue at hand - LFR (which will carry on) and normals (which will carry on) have a gap between them.

    LFR is too easy, normals are too hard. How do we bridge the gap?

    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...amutx/advanced

    "Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sometimes those opinions are wrong though." Daxxarri

  4. #704
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kos1085 View Post
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
    The issue with that is that the playerbase doesn't keep trying in the absence of reward, they simply quit.

    If the playerbase did just keep on perservering in the face of difficulty, then yes there would only need be 1 setting. They don't act that way, and so making things more tricky won't work to entertain.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    An easy mode isn't the option, as that would end up just being too easy as well. As I already said, heroic scenarios, tier 14 raids, challenge modes, and northern barrens are 4 options - if people want to cross their arms and say "oh well, I don't want to do any of them, so I'm just going to sit here and be miserable", well, it's not blizzard's fault at that point, now is it?
    Yes it is. They fail to provide appropriate options with appropriate difficulty. Even if you say it isn't and you plug your ears and stand up and down and scream lalalalla and ignore it the players still leave. If they want to salvage any of their business changes are coming. End of story.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kos1085 View Post
    Or raise the difficulty of LFR. The best proposal is the learn to play proposal. Keep trying and you will eventually beat it.
    They will not. Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. Not sure what the difficulty is in seeing this?

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Yes it is. They fail to provide appropriate options with appropriate difficulty. Even if you say it isn't and you plug your ears and stand up and down and scream lalalalla and ignore it the players still leave. If they want to salvage any of their business changes are coming. End of story.
    How do they fail to provide appropriate options? 4 different options are available if you don't feel like doing LFR but can't yet handle normal mode with appropriate rewards in between. And that's not plugging my ears, go into the game and check it out for yourself.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The issue with that is that the playerbase doesn't keep trying in the absence of reward, they simply quit.

    If the playerbase did just keep on perservering in the face of difficulty, then yes there would only need be 1 setting. They don't act that way, and so making things more tricky won't work to entertain.
    There was only 1 difficulty in TBC and the game was way better then than is it now.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    How do they fail to provide appropriate options? 4 different options are available if you don't feel like doing LFR but can't yet handle normal mode with appropriate rewards in between. And that's not plugging my ears, go into the game and check it out for yourself.
    None of them are fill the need that ICC 10 mans (and I would argue 25 mans did because they were piss easy to) did. So they have failed to provide an appropriate option. Now the developers have acknowledged this. The statistics suggests this. You are plugging your ears if you deny this. Check it our for yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    There was only 1 difficulty in TBC and the game was way better then than is it now.
    You don't want to return them to one raid difficulty. If they do it will be piss easy. I don't necessarily like having a million difficulties either but if your interest is in challenging content don't ask them to return to one difficulty. You won't like the outcome.

    Again this discussion is so academic at this point. The developers have acknowledged a need and still we have people here protesting NO NO NO NO NO NO as if it's even a relevant argument anymore. It's kind of amusing. It's almost like a caveman arguing with an engineer that the wheel isn't needed. You people are on the wrong side of history. I knew that even after the developers came to this conclusion (as slow as they were to do that) their would be obstinate members of the community who would be in denial anyway. It never ends.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-05-26 at 01:37 AM.

  9. #709
    Deleted
    I would argue that LK10 is way harder than Lei Shen10. Lei shen was a joke and went down within 10 tries.

  10. #710
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I propose nerfing normals until 50% of those who enter them can complete them before the tier is over.
    Wall of text incoming, but it is a worthwhile read.

    How do we know that we are not at that point already? First! I will make a correction.
    "50% of those who enter them before half the tier has passed can complete them before the tier is over."
    Expecting people to clear normals if they start normals 2 weeks before 5.4 is not really reasonable.

    So, are we at that point already? Any guild that started raiding when 5.2 was released or in the first few weeks will atleast be 3/12 by now. Presuming they raid more than 1 hour per week. If your guild is below 3/12 at current stage, you are either
    1. Not raiding
    2. Recently started

    So lets check how many guilds are 3/12. 18064 would be the number.
    7530 guilds are 12/12.

    That would mean at current stage, 42% of the guilds who cleared 3/12 are at 12/12. It is fairly safe to assume that as more people get meta gems, item upgrades that number will rise. So I would argue that we already are at that point that 50% of the guilds that actually enter ToT clear it on normal. Further, a large majority of the guilds that goes in with the mindset "Hey, lets clear this!" have cleared it. If you started running ToT in 5.2 with the intention to fully clear it on normal, you should probably be on atleast 7/12 right now, probably more, but lets be nice and say 7/12.
    11232 guilds are there. That means 67% of the guilds that are 7/12 have already cleared it. So that means that the average guild that actually raid with the intention of clearing the content on normal has already cleared it.

    So I think your 50% limit is already there, no change needs to be done on normal mode. The issue is not there.



    The issue I believe come from LFR, dailies, valor points and coins. People are drawn away from raids, to do other stuff than raiding to optimise their characters for raiding. I actually just leveled up an alt. So people are spending less time raiding, which equals to less raid participation and people being worse at raiding because they raid less, also tributing to the "lowered success rate in raids".

    Dailies needs to be non-mandatory. Making 300+ stat food come from the farm, bad idea. Forcing people to do that to optimise for raids.
    Forcing you to do 45 dailies per week in 5.0 to get coins, horrible idea. Now it is more "okay" when it only costs 50 lesser charms and you can get them more easily. I had to do 125 dailes per day in the first week just to keep coins on my main and my alts. Of course I also had to do even more than that since had to do like 40 dailies per day on my main to farm reputation with all the factions.

    Look at the wrath daily quest model. Dailies gave pets, tabards, mounts, gold, crafting reciepes. Only one daily chain gave anyting actually worthwhile, and that was sons of hodir with the shoulder enchant. Yet getting that was very easy. Getting the head enchant for your role was also very easy. No dailies were mandatory or gave significant raid upgrades. You did not need to gear up through dailies. That is how it should be. Dailies should be optional, not forced.

    I think 5.3 fixed this issue however, as said making coins cost only 50 lesser charms and making them more available is a good move.
    Dailies nerfed themselves, in the way that you do not need to farm exalted with klaxxi / lotus for the 489 items anymore. You could but it is not worth the time. So any people got the crafts so you do not need to farm shado pan rep to be able to do weapon enchants etc. So dailies are not 'needed' anymore simply because the new tier is here.

    Valor points. Valor points should come from raiding, not from other sources. Again, bringing people out from raids to do stuff like LFR/HC scenarios/CMs/HCs to get valor cap as it is "needed". They buffed the valor drop from raids, so that is good. Still not in a good place. In my opinion there should be a cap of 500 valor points obtainable from non-raid sources. I.e. LFR, HCs, HC scenarios, Dailies, rare spawns etc should cap out at 500 VP per week. Raise the VP cap to 1500. Make raid bosses drop something like 100-150 VP each making the cap easy through raiding, previous content giving half of that per boss. You should get raiding gear from raiding, therefor encouraging people to actually raid to improve themselves. Making people do dailies or HC scenarios for gear upgrades is counterproductive, as it is time consuming, making them raid less making them worse at actual raiding since they practice it less.

    I also believe that they should have upped justice points to be able to purches 476 gear to help the catch up. Maybe even 483 gear.

    Another problem is the legendary quest. I think the catch up is way to slow. A newly dinged character is basically 2 months away from being competetive.
    Imo the entire legendary quest is a piece of garbage. Once the quest get a new chain, they should nerf the quest into the ground.
    5.0 quest chain could easily be 2-3 sigils instead of 10.
    5.1 quest chain should be 1000 VP max, even 3000 is too much.
    5.2 and 5.3 quest chains are fine but should be nerfed to maybe 5 secrets and 4 rune stones when 5.4 is released. The current state of the quest is just waaaay to long if you start from 5.0

    Now we hit the big problem. LFR. You say "The bridge between LFR and Normals are to big. How do we fix this?". I say, you are trying to build a bridge between something that should not even exist. You assume to raid progression of LFR -> T15N -> T15H. The problem here is, lets be fair, LFR is not even raiding. You are trying to make people jump from an afk fest of epic boredom, a loot pinata, to actual raiding. That just does not work. People should go from easier raiding to raiding. Not from Nothing to raiding. So what I believe is that the raid progression path should be T14 -> T14H/T15N -> T15H.

    I believe LFR should be removed. 'BLASPHEMY!' you might say. Hear me out.

    What would this accomplish? In current state, a newly dinged character runs through 9 LFRs. MSV 2/2, HoF 2/2, ToES, ToT 4/4. When you get geared you still have to run atleast the ToT LFRs, probably some of the ToES/HoF ones aswell for those missing pieces. A newdly dinged character easily spends 10 hours on LFR including queue times unless he is a healer. That is 10 hours he could instead have spent on raiding, improving his gameplay. Instead we are 'forcing', even though nobody is forced, people take the path of least resistance, which in gearing up is LFR, it is free epics for no effort. So we have players wasting a majority of their time not doing anything productive, just getting bored, since seriously, 95% of the population do not enjoy LFR. For most its a forced grind that they hate. So we put them into an environment that they do not like, where they do not have to perform, mistakes does not hurt you since bosses are just pinatas. You learn nothing about actual raiding in LFR. So we are teaching the next raiding generation, do nothing and expect free loot from doing nothing. This is where the big problem is. What message LFR sends new players.

    What if we instead removed LFR, with the addition of the proposed changes to daily quests and valor points. We would now have players with a ton of free time on their hand. But how should they gear up? Yes, through T14 raids. A change like this would make people actually RAID to get into raiding. You see how this is logical? So people would get to spend time to do the T14 raids instead.

    In addition to that I believe that the 10% nerf on T14 raids should be increased to 20-25% to make it even easier. Elder Charms for the T14 raids should be easier to get to make the gearing even easier. Gear upgrades for the old content (T14) gear should only cost say 75-150 VP. This would make people gear up for T15 faster, so that MSV gear becomes 497/510 and HoF/ToES 504/517. This would really smooth gearing into ToT while still keeping people raiding to prepare for raiding.
    What benefits would this have?

    1. The servers community would start growing again. People would make a lot more pugs for T14 raids. Players would have to start interracting with eachother making this more into a MMO again instead of a CBTGFEW24RPYWNETTG, ( 'click-button-to-get-free-epics-with-24-random-people-you-will-never-even-talk-to-game' ) This would be very healthy for wows player base.

    2. Guild recruitment would be easier again with the community being bigger.

    3. T14 raids would be a perfect training ground to raiding. Not the bullshit that LFR is. It would be very easy, but not a complete faceroll. People would still need to learn the basics and improve themselves. It would be very healthy for the new players. With the lowered vp upgrade cost for T14 items that I suggested earlier, this would be the perfect stepping stone into ToT.

    4. Suddenly, the gap between LFR and ToT is gone. You go T14N->T14H->T15N->T15H, which would be a very smooth transition if as I mentioned earlier VP upgrades for T14 items would cost maybe 75vp per upgrade. And people go from easy raiding to normal raiding to heroic raiding. Without adding an "easy mode" as been suggested. Instead of making developers having to balance a T15 LFR, T15 easy, T15 normal and T15 heroic, they just simply have to do a T15 normal and T15 heroic with T14N taking the place of T15 LFR, T14H the place of T15 easy mode. Developers would get more time to produce content which we would all enjoy without making 4 raid sizes.

    5. Suddenly we got more happy raiders. The raiding player base is suddenly not forced to do content they do not want to do (LFR, Dailies, farming valor, farming coins) to get into content they want to play (raiding content). Raiders raid to raid. Not grind to raid. We also get more experienced and better raiders since they get to spend more time raiding. Practice makes perfect.
    Add that to all the previous benefits I mentioned, and I can honestly say, sorry, but I see no reason why LFR should stay.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:39 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    End of thread right here.

    Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

    How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.
    Just a question to you. Why do you raid? Not meaning to offend or anything. Just ask yourself, why do you raid?

    Personally, I raid for challenges. If raiding becomes easy, it loses its point. Nothing beats the feeling of wiping on a boss for 2 weeks and finally getting the kills. The best memories I have from WoW is from just those occasions, wiping and wiping, raid after raid until finally getting a kill. If everyone fell down in a few pulls, where is the enjoyment in raiding?

  11. #711
    What the denial REALLY amounts to is an extreme attempt to defend the obviously failed tiered raiding model and the obviously and incredibly flawed idea that difficulty will inspire everybody. It's a Zombie argument that should have died a long time ago. Again cavemen arguments being offered by cavemen.

  12. #712
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Again this discussion is so academic at this point. The developers have acknowledged a need and still we have people here protesting NO NO NO NO NO NO as if it's even a relevant argument anymore. It's kind of amusing. It's almost like a caveman arguing with an engineer that the wheel isn't needed. You people are on the wrong side of history. I knew that even after the developers came to this conclusion (as slow as they were to do that) their would be obstinate members of the community who would be in denial anyway. It never ends.
    I do not think people are argumenting "Nononononon". People are just having different ideas of what is the correct way to go. Personally I believe nerfing normals or adding a 4th raid mode is just retarded. Neither would have a desired outcome in the long raid.

    If we nerfed normals, 2 years down the road, people would still be complaining "normals too hard". Where does it stop? Do we nerf and nerf until normal = LFR now. Or do we let go of the little kids bike and let him ride the bike himself? Even if he falls down and hurt himself a few times, eventually he will learn to ride that bike. We do not need to cater the raiders.

    Adding a new mode between LFR and normal is just asking for less content. Devs balancing 4 difficulties.

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post

    Just a question to you. Why do you raid? Not meaning to offend or anything. Just ask yourself, why do you raid?

    Personally, I raid for challenges. If raiding becomes easy, it loses its point. Nothing beats the feeling of wiping on a boss for 2 weeks and finally getting the kills. The best memories I have from WoW is from just those occasions, wiping and wiping, raid after raid until finally getting a kill. If everyone fell down in a few pulls, where is the enjoyment in raiding?
    To spend time with people I like spending time with. Current raiding is fucking exhausting and I end every night I end ToT with a migraine headache. LFR has issues, the biggest one being over exposing the raid to players but it isn't going anywhere. I'm glad you like challenge. good on you. However increasing challenge with no correction is ultimately an unsustainable model.

  14. #714
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    What the denial REALLY amounts to is an extreme attempt to defend the obviously failed tiered raiding model and the obviously and incredibly flawed idea that difficulty will inspire everybody. It's a Zombie argument that should have died a long time ago. Again cavemen arguments being offered by cavemen.
    So. Say we removed both normal and heroic mode raiding. LFR was not end game content. There was nothing more hardcore than LFR. LFR gear is BiS gear. Everyone clears it.

    What would the point be of raiding? Is everyone happy? Everyone can access the end game content right? Perfect game?

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I do not think people are argumenting "Nononononon". People are just having different ideas of what is the correct way to go. Personally I believe nerfing normals or adding a 4th raid mode is just retarded. Neither would have a desired outcome in the long raid.

    If we nerfed normals, 2 years down the road, people would still be complaining "normals too hard". Where does it stop? Do we nerf and nerf until normal = LFR now. Or do we let go of the little kids bike and let him ride the bike himself? Even if he falls down and hurt himself a few times, eventually he will learn to ride that bike. We do not need to cater the raiders.

    Adding a new mode between LFR and normal is just asking for less content. Devs balancing 4 difficulties.
    It stops when the content is no longer providing enough push back to be appealing. Tthat's the whole fucking point. That's why LFR doesn't suffice. That's why normal doesn't suffice. I mean why is it we can give difficulty to the top tier players and that's totally sustainable but nobody else can be catered to like that? They do nothign BUT cater to raiders. The entire design of this game is a massive catering to raiders.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 01:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So. Say we removed both normal and heroic mode raiding. LFR was not end game content. There was nothing more hardcore than LFR. LFR gear is BiS gear. Everyone clears it.

    What would the point be of raiding? Is everyone happy? Everyone can access the end game content right? Perfect game?
    What would be the point for you? I don't know I'm sure you'd leave but frankly I suspect you are a minority. Are more people happy? Probably yea.

    I mean your example is so extreme in it's stupidity. It's a reduction to an absurd end. How bout the other dumb ass logical extreme? get rid of lfr and normal and just cater to heroic raiders? NOBODY or next to nobody clears it?

    What would be the point of raiding then? Is anyone happy? Virtually nobody can access the end game content? Perfect game?

  16. #716
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    To spend time with people I like spending time with. Current raiding is fucking exhausting and I end every night I end ToT with a migraine headache. LFR has issues, the biggest one being over exposing the raid to players but it isn't going anywhere. I'm glad you like challenge. good on you. However increasing challenge with no correction is ultimately an unsustainable model.
    You can still spend time with people you enjoy and having challenging content (not that current normals are challenging). If you are wiping, you can improved yourself together, help eachother. Instead of pulling, pulling, pulling, wiping, wiping, wiping, getting angry etc. Take a breath and a step back. Ask yourself, "why are we wiping? How can we improve?". Help eachother, support eachother becoming better. Improve your dps rotation, your healing, moving out of fire, and suddenly, you and your team overcome a challenge together and you have a feeling 10x greater than you could ever have in easier content.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You can still spend time with people you enjoy and having challenging content (not that current normals are challenging). If you are wiping, you can improved yourself together, help eachother. Instead of pulling, pulling, pulling, wiping, wiping, wiping, getting angry etc. Take a breath and a step back. Ask yourself, "why are we wiping? How can we improve?". Help eachother, support eachother becoming better. Improve your dps rotation, your healing, moving out of fire, and suddenly, you and your team overcome a challenge together and you have a feeling 10x greater than you could ever have in easier content.
    No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable. It leaves older raiders who weren't as good but good enough for the relatively less complex mechanics (and player rotations) in the dust and more so than that it punishes NEW raiders who don't have a wealth of experience behind them. Not everybody is a super star, not everybody is cut out for this difficulty and they get let out in the cold because of it.

    Man you must think were some kind of fucking idiots. Were asking for appropriate content. Again all I read is denial. denial denial denial.

  18. #718
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I mean your example is so extreme in it's stupidity. It's a reduction to an absurd end. How bout the other dumb ass logical extreme? get rid of lfr and normal and just cater to heroic raiders? NOBODY or next to nobody clears it?

    What would be the point of raiding then? Is anyone happy? Virtually nobody can access the end game content? Perfect game?
    I am not asking for heroic raiding to be the only content. So your second point is kinda mute. Normal modes are accessible as it is. I wish T14 raids to take the place LFR has currently. T14 is easily accessible for anyone.

    And I do not expect my example to be that extreme. If we keep nerfing, nerfing, nerfing, that is where we would end up.
    Do you honestly believe more people would be happy? This is just me. I know maybe about 60-80 people playing WoW. So that is a small sample size, but without exaggarating 0% of the people I know enjoy LFR. A majority of them are the opposite, very vocal about how much they hate it.

    Have you ever been in an LFR and thought "Damn this is fun?". Do you sense the enjoyment in LFR? Everyone is happy, only happy faces. Granted, I have only done about 200-300 LFRs in MoP. But I cant recall one of them that did not involve swearing, people being mad at eachother. People afking, "KICK X" "NO KICK Y". etc.

    Is that enjoyment for you?

    I do not believe I am a minority since I am yet to meet this "LFR raiding is the best thing that ever happened" person in-game or in real life.

  19. #719
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I am not asking for heroic raiding to be the only content. So your second point is kinda mute. Normal modes are accessible as it is. I wish T14 raids to take the place LFR has currently. T14 is easily accessible for anyone.

    And I do not expect my example to be that extreme. If we keep nerfing, nerfing, nerfing, that is where we would end up.
    Do you honestly believe more people would be happy? This is just me. I know maybe about 60-80 people playing WoW. So that is a small sample size, but without exaggarating 0% of the people I know enjoy LFR. A majority of them are the opposite, very vocal about how much they hate it.

    Have you ever been in an LFR and thought "Damn this is fun?". Do you sense the enjoyment in LFR? Everyone is happy, only happy faces. Granted, I have only done about 200-300 LFRs in MoP. But I cant recall one of them that did not involve swearing, people being mad at eachother. People afking, "KICK X" "NO KICK Y". etc.

    Is that enjoyment for you?

    I do not believe I am a minority since I am yet to meet this "LFR raiding is the best thing that ever happened" person in-game or in real life.
    No normal modes are not accessible as it is. Again you are so far in denial about this you are now also arguing against the developers who are basically saying raiding isn't accessible enough and was better served in the ICC model.

    Your example is obviously fucking extreme because the developers aren't even close to doing that. Yes I believe more people would be happy with more accessible normal mode raids.

    Lfr isn't fun but it has nothing to do with the difficulty or the accessibilty of the raid. It's the exposure to 25 other assholes you don't know and don't care to know and just give you a headache when they wipe to easy shit. In fact in that stance I would make the argument lfr is to hard. I mean even the example you list about LFR has NOTHING TO DO WITH DIFFICULTY and everything to do with anonymity breeding assholes. Well assholes also need a spark and wiping in lfr is usually a pretty good spark.

    You are a minority and an increasing one.

  20. #720
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    No we can't. We've had to sit players because they aren't up to snuff. WE helped them and supported them and tried desperately to work with them but as I said before the increasing complexity being created to cater to heroic raiders is unsustainable.
    As a long time raider, I do not think raiding has become harder. I think the raiding population has become worse due to the reasons I mentioned before.

    Each expansion, people spend less and less time raiding, because they are forced to spend more and more time doing content that is not raiding to prepared for raiding. I do not know if you read my long post. But if we instead make raiding prepare raiders for raiding, people would become better raiders.

    The current model of "You should not raid to become a raider" has made people worse.

    We tried to put together a new raid team with our old ulduar raid team, and we were quite frankly amazed of how terrible the raiding population was. Players that 4 years ago we would not even have considered as they were 'not good enough', are now the perfect raiders. The average raider has become so much worse in the past few years.

    You say all you read is 'denial denial denial'. I got to say the same to you. You say you ask for appropriate content. We have been steamrolling through normals with newly dinged alts. Using random pugs that were completely carried, having a raid team geared with about 490ilvl, we easily cleared ToT normal. A pug had to leave on Dark Animus, we proceeded to 9 man Dark Animus with an average item level of about 495 at that point. Was not even an issue. I am rather sure we could 8 man ToT with 495 ilvl.

    Our raiders were complaining in 490 gear at how easy the bosses were and that it was no fun, no challenge.

    Then I ask you, if we can do that? How is the content not appropriate? This is not bragging. This is an honest question. The content is not harder then ever. This is not an armsrace between heroic raiders and devs. This is the results of the raiding community being catered far to much resulting in them becoming worse and worse.
    It is time to push the little birds out of the nest and let them fly.

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