View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
757. This poll is closed
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1501
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    Normal raids should be designed so that, in a reasonable amount of time with a reasonable amount of skill/effort, the average organized raiding guild can complete them. Currently they are not, and thus players are leaving the raiding pool in droves; this is very bad for anyone who enjoys raiding.

    If this keeps up your entire hobby is going to die: this can already be seen with GW2 and ESO's focus on dungeons as their endgame. The industry is moving away from the raiding endgame model.
    So just to back this tape back one more time. A guild consisting of 6 people with 0/12, 2 people with 2/12, 1 guy with 1/12, and one alt with 0/12 and a main with heroic experience enters a raid. They are mostly strangers to eachother in about 490-500 average item level. They are not hardcore raiders, in all sense and purposes a casual guild with 3 hour raid times (that usually becomes 2 hours because of late show ups.

    They enter ToT. They spend less than an hour on the first boss. They spend 2 hours on Horridon, They spen less than an hour on council and even less on Tortos. In about 4 hours of actual time on the bosses, this group has progressed further than anyone in that group had done ever before. In 30 minutes in Megaera they reach the secon last head.

    Is this unreasonable amount of time with a reasonable amount of skill/effort.

    Oh, and on the skill/effort part. Talking about the guild that does not pre-pot, most people do not have professions and the optimal enchants/gems/reforge. People are failing on mechancis such as blowing up balls on Jin'Rokh, standing in swipe and other shit on horridon, standing in shit on council, dieng by rockfall on Tortos, not kicking turtles on Tortos, deaths by acid rain on Megaera etc.
    The dps is so low that Horridon is on 80-90% after the last gate, sul is on 40% when he casts sandstorm and megaera has time to cast 5 breaths on the first head.

    So again, is this reasonable? I think it is.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 02:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm glad you agree that normal modes should be detuned.
    Did he at any point say that? You are hillarious when people dont agree with you.

  2. #1502
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I'm glad you agree that normal modes should be detuned.
    I think normal modes should be buffed actually.

  3. #1503
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So just to back this tape back one more time. A guild consisting of 6 people with 0/12, 2 people with 2/12, 1 guy with 1/12, and one alt with 0/12 and a main with heroic experience enters a raid. They are mostly strangers to eachother in about 490-500 average item level. They are not hardcore raiders, in all sense and purposes a casual guild with 3 hour raid times (that usually becomes 2 hours because of late show ups.

    They enter ToT. They spend less than an hour on the first boss. They spend 2 hours on Horridon, They spen less than an hour on council and even less on Tortos. In about 4 hours of actual time on the bosses, this group has progressed further than anyone in that group had done ever before. In 30 minutes in Megaera they reach the secon last head.

    Is this unreasonable amount of time with a reasonable amount of skill/effort.

    Oh, and on the skill/effort part. Talking about the guild that does not pre-pot, most people do not have professions and the optimal enchants/gems/reforge. People are failing on mechancis such as blowing up balls on Jin'Rokh, standing in swipe and other shit on horridon, standing in shit on council, dieng by rockfall on Tortos, not kicking turtles on Tortos, deaths by acid rain on Megaera etc.
    The dps is so low that Horridon is on 80-90% after the last gate, sul is on 40% when he casts sandstorm and megaera has time to cast 5 breaths on the first head.

    So again, is this reasonable? I think it is.
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's the problem.

    Also the average guild doesn't have an MT with Heroic experience.
    Last edited by D4NNYB0Y; 2013-06-05 at 02:48 PM.

  4. #1504
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    I think normal modes should be buffed actually.
    For what reason?

    You only want LFR left or something?

  5. #1505
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    Looks like only the .01% of players that do Heroic Raids are good players then. I swear you guys are your own worst enemy.
    Heroic raiding that isn't at the very very high end just requires an average player to play their class properly...

  6. #1506
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    For what reason?

    You only want LFR left or something?
    If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding, cutting edge progression guilds are struggling to find good recruits because ... right now ... no-one needs to improve or play well. You can do nothing in this game and still kill Lei Shen and if you really want you can buy yourself a Heroic Ra-den kill without ever really putting in the effort. Sure, buying heroic achievements has always been common but the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.

  7. #1507
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's a problem.
    Just because the average participant is getting more out of shape, more over weight and running slower and slower each year in Martathons, does not mean they move the finish line closer each year.

    At what point do we stop nerfing content to adjust it for the new "average" guild, as there will always be people struggling with the content. If you nerf the content, in a few months, there will be a new "average" guild that is still wiping on the first bosses and the gap beteen entry guilds an the endgame guils are even bigger.

    At some point we got to stop and instead of the answer being nerfing the content, maybe it could be to finally let the little birdies fly out of the nest and deal with it themselves. Blizzard cant hold hands with entry level raiders forever. Maybe a more logical solution would be to instead of having irrelevant daily quests giving coins used in raiding, maybe make the daily quest actually raid related?
    Having daily quests that requires you to actively move out of shit or you die.
    Having daily quests that requires dps to pull a certain dps mark to kill a mob, maybe having a mob with 3 million health healing itself for 60-70k per second.
    In the same fashion, having something that healers need to heal, something that takes 60k damage per second and needs to be healed up from 1.5M to 3M. And something similar for tanks.

    Maybe it is time to stop and consider that the fault is not the raids, rather the training grounds for raids. Which right now is non-existant.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-05 at 02:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.
    An what I said above could be a help to turn this trend, since this is as true as ever.

  8. #1508
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's the problem.

    Also the average guild doesn't have an MT with Heroic experience.
    Horridon is not a brick wall, it's the same difficulty as jinrokh

  9. #1509
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Just because the average participant is getting more out of shape, more over weight and running slower and slower each year in Martathons, does not mean they move the finish line closer each year.

    At what point do we stop nerfing content to adjust it for the new "average" guild, as there will always be people struggling with the content. If you nerf the content, in a few months, there will be a new "average" guild that is still wiping on the first bosses and the gap beteen entry guilds an the endgame guils are even bigger.

    At some point we got to stop and instead of the answer being nerfing the content, maybe it could be to finally let the little birdies fly out of the nest and deal with it themselves.
    The difference being that this is a video game rather than a competition. This is the best those little birdies can do; they're just going to leave the game, which certainly isn't good for hardcore raiders. If they leave Heroics are going to leave with them. There's no way on Earth Blizzard could justify spending that amount of resources on such an incredibly small segment of the population. Quite frankly I'm not sure if it's even justifiable with Normals as they are now.

  10. #1510
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    That would be reasonable if that was the average skill level of the majority of normal 10 man guilds in WoW, but it's not. The majority of these guilds brickwall on Horridon, get frustrated that they can't progress, and quit trying. That's the problem.

    Also the average guild doesn't have an MT with Heroic experience.
    How is Horridon a brick wall? My guild is 3/13 HM and I'm the MT. We killed it the first night of progressing on it last week, and killed it again last night.

    Jinrok / Horridon / Jihkun - our kills so far. If you are trying to state brickwall bosses then I would point you toward Council heroic, or Drumu heroic.

  11. #1511
    Quote Originally Posted by garoboldy View Post
    How is Horridon a brick wall? My guild is 3/13 HM and I'm the MT. We killed it the first night of progressing on it last week, and killed it again last night.

    Jinrok / Horridon / Jihkun - our kills so far. If you are trying to state brickwall bosses then I would point you toward Council heroic, or Drumu heroic.
    We're talking about raiders that will never hit HC anything. Average raiders. Heroic =/= average.

  12. #1512
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    The difference being that this is a video game rather than a competition. This is the best those little birdies can do; they're just going to leave the game, which certainly isn't good for hardcore raiders. If they leave Heroics are going to leave with them. There's no way on Earth Blizzard could justify spending that amount of resources on such an incredibly small segment of the population. Quite frankly I'm not sure if it's even justifiable with Normals as they are now.
    This is the problem. Raiding is not a casual video game, it requires 9/24 players atleast. And it is a competetion.
    If you want casual video game experience, you got a lot of other content. Raiding is WoWs response to a major league game. If you want to play on a level where you just kick around a ball with some friends, then you have 5 mans, LFR, older content etc, all of which require no big commitment.

    Wows niche that it contains hardcore end-game content is one of the few things that keeps WoW alive. Without that, WoW would be no different from most the other new MMOs.

  13. #1513
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    If normal modes were buffed we would see a higher level of player in this game and right now the game is bleeding, cutting edge progression guilds are struggling to find good recruits because ... right now ... no-one needs to improve or play well. You can do nothing in this game and still kill Lei Shen and if you really want you can buy yourself a Heroic Ra-den kill without ever really putting in the effort. Sure, buying heroic achievements has always been common but the skill level of the 'average' player is so much worse right now than it has ever been, and the sad thing is the game is probably the easiest it has ever been.
    Ah right, the old "if we up the difficulty people will HAVE to improve" argument.

    People don't have to do anything and what rhey actually do if you up the difficulty is leave completely. Wow for most people isn't the wife beating husband she just can't let go!

  14. #1514
    Quote Originally Posted by Definition View Post
    Horridon is not a brick wall, it's the same difficulty as jinrokh
    Statistics prove otherwise. Post facts, not whatever passes for reality in your mind.

  15. #1515
    Deleted
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.

  16. #1516
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.
    Having raided since vanilla, i'll tell you straight, raids are now harder then they have ever been. I like it, but the point still stands.

    What's happened is that blizzard have hived off the "casual" into LFR and then thought "right we can make raids harder now they are taken care of." What this has done is split people into "heroic" or "lfr" camps and is fucking normal mode guilds over in the process.

  17. #1517
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Having raided since vanilla, i'll tell you straight, raids are now harder then they have ever been. I like it, but the point still stands
    If you honestly believe that, then you stopped playing after MC and started playing in DS / 30% nerfed ICC again.

  18. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This is the problem. Raiding is not a casual video game, it requires 9/24 players atleast. And it is a competetion.
    If you want casual video game experience, you got a lot of other content. Raiding is WoWs response to a major league game. If you want to play on a level where you just kick around a ball with some friends, then you have 5 mans, LFR, older content etc, all of which require no big commitment.

    Wows niche that it contains hardcore end-game content is one of the few things that keeps WoW alive. Without that, WoW would be no different from most the other new MMOs.
    WoW's appeal to casual gamers is what keeps it alive. Nothing more. As soon as that appeal is gone WoW will truly be a niche game with an audience in the thousands rather than millions.

  19. #1519
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollfaced View Post
    Ever since LFR was implemented, people have come here and made angry threads that Normals/Heroics are too hard.

    Never have I heard that raiding is for everyone, you gotta put in the same amount of work as everyone else is.
    I dont buy a game try it out on the hardest difficulty and go "WAAAAHHH" too hard on the games forums, I try to improve myself gradually.

    Its just a pathetic attitude, and I cant imagine how these kind of people are irl.
    Talking about pathetic attitudes, any reason why a developer can't make content aimed at the less skilled? Pathetic is clumping everyone into your skill bracket and refusing to acknowledge some aren't or don't have the time to be. It's a game, a lot of these people don't have the time or the inclination, give them a watered down version above lfr with social interaction.

    It's the new world, give players what they want, ramming your vision down their throats isn't good for business.

  20. #1520
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y View Post
    WoW's appeal to casual gamers is what keeps it alive. Nothing more. As soon as that appeal is gone WoW will truly be a niche game with an audience in the thousands rather than millions.
    Theres so much more to the game than raiding, and if you're really casual you will settle for as far as LFR goes. By that I mean casual as not being able to make scheduled raiding times and such, and just playing for funsies whenever you have time.

    I have never spoken to any friend that play WoW casually and heard him/her whine about raid difficulties, because they are smart enough to know you have to put effort&time into raiding. And thats what they cant do, so they wont complain about something like that and settle for LFR and older tier-raids.
    Last edited by mmocf94708a214; 2013-06-05 at 03:24 PM.

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