Thread: Veng% caps inc

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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Veng% caps inc

    It was getting out of hand and its would of only gotten more out of hand.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    Going to try Vengeance cap at 30% health (down from 100%) in 10s and 50% of health in 25s. This is a big change, so might be 5.4, not 5.3.
    Last edited by Redpanda; 2013-05-17 at 03:50 AM.

  2. #2
    This needed a new thread because?

    Things you don't mention:

    1) Source data: new caps are 30% for 10m, and 50% for 25m
    2) Numbers: this means that in this tier, 10m veng is capped at ~225k and 25m is capped as ~400k
    3) The fact: overall, this really changes nothing outside of solo-tanking Ra-Den and maybe a few parts of a few encounters, which are trivial anyway.

    It's a good idea maybe, but the change will be largely unnoticeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This needed a new thread because?

    Things you don't mention:

    1) Source data: new caps are 30% for 10m, and 50% for 25m
    2) Numbers: this means that in this tier, 10m veng is capped at ~225k and 25m is capped as ~400k
    3) The fact: overall, this really changes nothing outside of solo-tanking Ra-Den and maybe a few parts of a few encounters, which are trivial anyway.

    It's a good idea maybe, but the change will be largely unnoticeable.
    Without stacking any stamina, I see 30% of my health in vengeance on:
    Horridon Rampage
    Tortos Bats
    1-tanking Iron Qon.

    And that's just in the first 5 heroics.

    Not noticeable for DKs with 800k hp? Sure. Not everyone has that much health, though.

    There's a good chance that stacking stamina for the AP gain is going to be a thing on some of the t16 encounters, if this goes through.

  4. #4
    Nerfing tank DPS might actually hurt 10 man raiding quite a bit.

  5. #5
    It's going to be balanced around it. It's to prevent tanks doing weird things such as /sit to get crit for more vengeance. Not going to affect anything IMO. My record so far (H3/13) is ~320k solo tanking final phase LFR Lei Shen.

    It also prevents those who scale out of control with vengeance from getting to those points.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    Without stacking any stamina, I see 30% of my health in vengeance on:
    Horridon Rampage
    Tortos Bats
    1-tanking Iron Qon.

    And that's just in the first 5 heroics.

    Not noticeable for DKs with 800k hp? Sure. Not everyone has that much health, though.

    There's a good chance that stacking stamina for the AP gain is going to be a thing on some of the t16 encounters, if this goes through.
    You mentioned the "few parts of a few encounters" I talked about. Horridon/Jalak final phase, IQ final phase, LS if you cheese decaps, and RaDen. We kite bats on Tortos, but that's a fair point too. Even still, tank HP is usually around 700-750k in 10man unless you're a monk, so you're still looking at 210-225k AP.

    Not game changing.

    And about the stam stacking; not really sure thats an issue either. It's only 30% "efficient" in extending the veng ceiling. Using a STR/AGI trinket instead contributes pure AP not constrained by Veng, making it far more effective/efficient at boosting throughput and mitigation from AP. Not saying that stacking stam won't have other, passive benefits (far more normal/expected for a tank) such as effective health, but I don't see it being the default avenue for increasing throughput as a primary effort.
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-05-17 at 04:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You mentioned the "few parts of a few encounters" I talked about. Horridon/Jalak final phase, IQ final phase, LS if you cheese decaps, and RaDen. We kite bats on Tortos, but that's a fair point too. Even still, tank HP is usually around 700-750k in 10man unless you're a monk, so you're still looking at 210-225k AP.

    Not game changing.
    I'm pretty sure my druid is sitting at just over 600k HP (raid buffed) in 525 gear. Yay for 180k vengeance caps.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Motoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akylios View Post
    I'm pretty sure my druid is sitting at just over 600k HP (raid buffed) in 525 gear. Yay for 180k vengeance caps.
    I'm pretty sure your not. Regardless, this changes very little and "should" help with curbing the overpoweredness of Paladin healing for example on fights like Ra-den.
    Last edited by Motoma; 2013-05-17 at 04:17 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Motoma View Post
    I'm pretty sure your not.
    Well, as a druid you don't reforge or gem stamina on 10m. You don't even use stamina flasks, but instead you pop crit/armor elixirs each try. At 5/13 HC I still haven't found a boss in 10m HC that justifies me stacking any form of stamina (not even talon rake or bats do enough dmg to justify it). It will be a bit weird if popping stamina flasks would suddenly be the best DPS increase for druids on certain encounters. But I don't know the mathematics behind that.
    Last edited by Akylios; 2013-05-17 at 04:30 AM.

  10. #10
    1500 stam = ~22500 hp, so lets call that 25k HP with buffs/modifiers. 30% of that is 7750 AP added to the veng ceiling. (12.5k for 25m)
    1000 Str/Agi = ~2500 AP all the time, plus minimal dodge/parry.

    So flasks will be stam if you are going to be at/near veng cap the entire time, str/agi on tank swap or transition fights.

    Personally, I kinda like the return to stamina being useful to tanks, even if artificially only to increase our potential damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #11
    I hope they some day decide to do away completely with the awkward Vengeance mechanic, and simply raise every tank specs base damage output and threat modifiers to compensate.

    The reason they introduced Vengeance to begin with was their worry that plate tanks in parry/dodge gear would not be able to keep up with dps spec threat in higher tiers, this is hardly the case at this point in time.

    Begs the question if passive avoidance dodge/parry gear isn't an outdated concept itself, and if plate tanks shouldn't just be balanced around wearing dps gear and using damage-to-mitigation the same way monks are.
    They pile the bodies high, reaching for a castle in the sky.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    I hope they some day decide to do away completely with the awkward Vengeance mechanic, and simply raise every tank specs base damage output and threat modifiers to compensate.
    Yeah, but no, because PVP. Static values means that you either completely overpower low content, or are gimp as hell in late content. And PVP is always a mess. Scaling tuning (like veng) allows that sliding rule to be adjust as you go. Not perfect, but better than static.

    The reason they introduced Vengeance to begin with was their worry that plate tanks in parry/dodge gear would not be able to keep up with dps spec threat in higher tiers, this is hardly the case at this point in time.
    It's hardly the case because tanks are doing competitive/top damage THANKS TO vengeance. Remove the scaling and you'd see far less dmg, ergo less threat. Still, nowhere near BC levels (lolsunder), but it'd be an issue. Bad tanks with good dps still do get throttled.

    Begs the question if passive avoidance dodge/parry gear isn't an outdated concept itself, and if plate tanks shouldn't just be balanced around wearing dps gear and using damage-to-mitigation the same way monks are.
    It absolutely should, and all classes should be balanced around the same method of scaling as Paladin's Sanctity of Battle, to make use of their appropriate secondary. Make DKs rune speed scale (better) with haste, make Prot wars get crit blocks from crit rating, things like that. Axe the dodge/parry crap and you can balance tank dps to far better levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Yeah, but no, because PVP. Static values means that you either completely overpower low content, or are gimp as hell in late content. And PVP is always a mess. Scaling tuning (like veng) allows that sliding rule to be adjust as you go. Not perfect, but better than static.



    It's hardly the case because tanks are doing competitive/top damage THANKS TO vengeance. Remove the scaling and you'd see far less dmg, ergo less threat. Still, nowhere near BC levels (lolsunder), but it'd be an issue. Bad tanks with good dps still do get throttled.



    It absolutely should, and all classes should be balanced around the same method of scaling as Paladin's Sanctity of Battle, to make use of their appropriate secondary. Make DKs rune speed scale (better) with haste, make Prot wars get crit blocks from crit rating, things like that. Axe the dodge/parry crap and you can balance tank dps to far better levels.
    I think this is the most important thing right now - the way the tanking classes are different from each other. Imo Vengeance isn't the actual issue, out dated tanking stats are. If you removed Vengeance from the game right now, DK's and Warriors would be (even more) fucked when it comes to TPS. But if you removed Parry/Dodge from plate tanks as their main stat or (as you suggest) make Haste and Crit scale for DK's and Warriors as well, then you could actually remove Vengeance and buff tank abilities to compensate for the loss in raid dps.

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Personally, I kinda like the return to stamina being useful to tanks, even if artificially only to increase our potential damage.
    Am I the only one that loves the idea of having a ton of health as a tank? (just flavor-wise). After all as a DPS/healer basically your max HP reflects your gear level (sans trinkets) to a degree, as a tank it makes me feel nice having a lot.

    Of course, I don't actually have that much health in my tank spec given that I don't main tank so pretty much all of my gear is haste-gemmed (figured that for anything I'd actually tank, a pure DPS build is more than enough)... which is a bit disappointing.

    Would also partially help the gearing problem when it comes to removing avoidance, if stamina became a desirable main stat with both survival and DPS increases, at least when it comes to lowering the amount of haste/crit gemming we see.

  15. #15
    hmmmm wondering how this will affect soloing when prot/guardian/brew/blood, do the sources say anything about the veng cap in effect when in a raid group or just a new mechanic when you enter an instance?

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by un_known View Post
    hmmmm wondering how this will affect soloing when prot/guardian/brew/blood, do the sources say anything about the veng cap in effect when in a raid group or just a new mechanic when you enter an instance?
    I'm not sure about all fights, but realistically the vengeance cap in anything pre-Cata (or even in Cata I believe) isn't something most people will hit.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm not sure about all fights, but realistically the vengeance cap in anything pre-Cata (or even in Cata I believe) isn't something most people will hit.
    ah good point, was hoping that it wouldn't be cap to THAT degree where it would be impossible to solo HC 10 Rag and so on

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
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    Could be a nerf for 10man solo-tanking, but changes nothing for 25man.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 13/14H.

  19. #19
    Don't think there are many fights where I get more than 100k vengeance, usually sitting at like 70k?.. I need to take a closer look though.
    Only times I get higher is when I abuse mechanics, like eating decapitate with zen med etc...

    Though I think something should be done about tank DPS, I'm not sure if doing it mid expansion (or late expansion) is a good moment.. If it nerfs our overall DPS, then enrage timers will become an issue on 10 mans :/ Will see how it goes..
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  20. #20
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I'm not sure about all fights, but realistically the vengeance cap in anything pre-Cata (or even in Cata I believe) isn't something most people will hit.
    Really there are only a Very few fights in 10 or 25 where you will hit the cap currently, and all but maybe 1 (Wind Lord) only appear in Heroic mode. It's more promident in level 80 toons trying to solo Heroic 25 Lich King. Mechanics that are not intended to be soloed at that particular level of gearing.

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