Thread: Veng% caps inc

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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemoBytom View Post
    Don't think there are many fights where I get more than 100k vengeance, usually sitting at like 70k?.. I need to take a closer look though.
    Only times I get higher is when I abuse mechanics, like eating decapitate with zen med etc...

    Though I think something should be done about tank DPS, I'm not sure if doing it mid expansion (or late expansion) is a good moment.. If it nerfs our overall DPS, then enrage timers will become an issue on 10 mans :/ Will see how it goes..
    I highly doubt they will "fix" tank dmg until a new raid is coming. Cause atm. Heroic encounters really do rely on tank dmg. And if you nerf tank dmg above the "/sit to abuse Vengeance" sorta thing, it will become an issue.

    I honestly don't mind them looking at tank dmg come next Tier, but now is not the time. At the same time, as a tank, I really do enjoy having something to "work for" on trivial encounters, where I just have to tank. That's when stuff like rankings become even more interesting, cause there's nothing else to do really.

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire Vapo's Avatar
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    That 10man cap is too low imo, 30% in current gear(without stam stacking as most 10man tanks dont it) is about 200k, so assuming its 240k next tier. These numbers are reachable in even current content. And the tank dmg is really needed in 10man.
    Last edited by Vapo; 2013-05-17 at 08:58 AM.

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    I have the same concern as Vapo but it makes no sense for them to implement this before a new Tier, where they can also balance encounters around tanks doing less dmg.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Vapo's Avatar
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    Well GC says in his tweet its not 5.3 change,but even if its next tier it would mean 10man tuning would need to be "easier" if tanks contribute less to the raid dps.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Am I the only one that loves the idea of having a ton of health as a tank? (just flavor-wise). After all as a DPS/healer basically your max HP reflects your gear level (sans trinkets) to a degree, as a tank it makes me feel nice having a lot.

    Of course, I don't actually have that much health in my tank spec given that I don't main tank so pretty much all of my gear is haste-gemmed (figured that for anything I'd actually tank, a pure DPS build is more than enough)... which is a bit disappointing.

    Would also partially help the gearing problem when it comes to removing avoidance, if stamina became a desirable main stat with both survival and DPS increases, at least when it comes to lowering the amount of haste/crit gemming we see.
    It is kinda a guilty pleasure/measuring stick as a tank to see that 700k, 750, 800k mark hit. That is, assuming you maintain accuracy caps and other pertinent stats first and foremost. Nothing like seeing that random DK tank from a no-name guild with 800k HP (my pala has like ~690 unbuffed), just to see he's using 2x brewfest stam trinks, full stam gems, SSG rune, etc.

    I agree that a high health pool is never a bad thing (barring crazy gimmick fights) for a tank to have, and I think that we WILL see some level of "sweet spot" or ratio for keeping stam high enough to capitalize on veng levels, esp in 10man. 100% agree that it's a needed "flavor" for tanks too. Kinda silly to see myself only ~90-100k above some DPS.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Vapo View Post
    Well GC says in his tweet its not 5.3 change,but even if its next tier it would mean 10man tuning would need to be "easier" if tanks contribute less to the raid dps.
    the fact that fights are designed with 2 tanks in mind, yet ppl find a way to 1 tank them, thereby bringing another dps or healer, already made them easier. They'd just correct this flaw in the design.

    Alternatively, they could make bosses hit as hard as their 25man counterparts, thereby encouraging 2 tanks in a "taunt after the big hit" style, even if the special attacks would have a longer cd then in 25, the direct dmg spikes would be the same, making the normal dmg after it dangerous enough to encourage ppl to 2 tanking the fight.

    Both ways result in the tank damage not going through the roof, it is already downright silly to see a tank pull 1.4m dps on some trashpulls (dk tank on the 2 mogu+quillen trashpacks before iron qon)

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I highly doubt they will "fix" tank dmg until a new raid is coming. Cause atm. Heroic encounters really do rely on tank dmg. And if you nerf tank dmg above the "/sit to abuse Vengeance" sorta thing, it will become an issue.

    I honestly don't mind them looking at tank dmg come next Tier, but now is not the time. At the same time, as a tank, I really do enjoy having something to "work for" on trivial encounters, where I just have to tank. That's when stuff like rankings become even more interesting, cause there's nothing else to do really.
    I think that changing it during this expansion is a bad idea. That'd be a big change that would affect older tiers as well (some people still "progress" in older tiers and will be going through ToT during 5.4).
    I like topping DPS metters as tank, but I have to say that it's wrong from design PoV.. Tanks really shouldn't be "tough DPSers" IMHO..
    But currently it plays big role and any drastic change would have drastic consequences.. This is something that's usually done when new expansion launches, classes are redesigned, all races/rankings gets reset etc..
    It's ok-ish how it's now, nothing really gamebreaking or outright stupid..
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  8. #28
    This change is not needed. If tanks can survive the damage, then they should get the vengeance for it. Risk vs reward.

    If it's implemented, it should be a static cap for all tanks, not HP based. Not all tanks have the same HP (Blood DK vs. BrM, for instance), so why limit different tanks to different AP caps?

  9. #29
    It's definitely needed. Tanks were not meant to scale with the current vengeance levels in heroic raiding.

  10. #30
    What's the problem? 200-250k vengeance is still an insane amount of AP and tanks will still top dps with it in the fights they topped dps in before. Not gonna change a thing other than people cheesing enrage timers with vengeance (e.g - tanks sitting down to get crit on Lei Shen).

    The only thing it's doing is fixing a loophole players have found to negate some of the boss difficulty in 10man (and to a lesser extent 25m), other than that I don't see any noticeable nerf for raiding.
    Last edited by Vakna; 2013-05-18 at 08:38 AM.

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  11. #31
    The easy fix to ppl sitting down to get crit for massive vengeance, it to simply have hits only give non-crit vengeance values.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sengiratolom View Post
    the fact that fights are designed with 2 tanks in mind, yet ppl find a way to 1 tank them, thereby bringing another dps or healer, already made them easier. They'd just correct this flaw in the design.

    Alternatively, they could make bosses hit as hard as their 25man counterparts, thereby encouraging 2 tanks in a "taunt after the big hit" style, even if the special attacks would have a longer cd then in 25, the direct dmg spikes would be the same, making the normal dmg after it dangerous enough to encourage ppl to 2 tanking the fight.

    Both ways result in the tank damage not going through the roof, it is already downright silly to see a tank pull 1.4m dps on some trashpulls (dk tank on the 2 mogu+quillen trashpacks before iron qon)
    I'ts trash. Who cares that a tank can do 1.5m on trash? That should be applauded because it means they are dead faster and you can spend less time in the instance.

    This literally changes nothing IMHO. Ra-Den, Decap Lei Shen, maybe Tortos bats (I don't tank them so no idea). Woohoo! Whopping couple of fights where I would go above the cap. But think, those same fights I hit the cap, my dps is a LITTLE lower, not this astronomically huge amount. It is a fraction of our DPS.

    Vengeance was introduced to make up for the lack of hard hitting abilities and threat issues back when DPS could/would pull off tanks due to gear scaling. Make every tank's abilities hit harder, have more threat modifiers, and remove vengeance and no one will care. Adjust tanks all around to actually incorporate dodge/parry even for leather tanks and make it attractive and again, no one would care. There is a huge reason why Paladins go for Haste builds. There is a huge reason that there are no dodge agi gear, even tho some set bonuses have it (pointless), it is because dodge/parry is pointless the way it is implemented.

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  13. #33
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    They need to bring that cap down to 10% of HP to every tank, then up base damage on abilities. Atm the damage gap between 0 veng and max vengeance is just absurd and idiotic design, one of the reasons i quit.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    They need to bring that cap down to 10% of HP to every tank, then up base damage on abilities. Atm the damage gap between 0 veng and max vengeance is just absurd and idiotic design, one of the reasons i quit.
    I thought about it a bit and actually wouldn't mind the Vengeance system going back to a retuned version of the old Cataclysm style, where your max AP was determined based on your stamina and you were expected (on heroic current-content encounters) to reach the cap.

    1) Your mitigation would be balanced around vengeance cap and tank damage would be tuned accordingly. This means that pulling hordes of extra mobs, tanking multiple boss mobs (that are meant to be tanked one at a time), or one-tanking stuff that's meant to be two-tanked means that your vengeance will stop scaling and the result is what should happen if you do any of the above (without outgearing it) - a dead tank.

    2) Tanks would still do lower damage if they are not tanking, hence allowing tanks (at vengeance cap) to do more damage for more threat while tanking. You wouldn't be able to 6 tank 4 heal a raid.

    3) Tanks would now have Stamina as an offensive and not just defensive stat, meaning that gemming will now have to include stamina, hence a lot of the source of unintended amounts of secondary stats (gems) would be replaced with stamina. This can tie in with removing dodge/parry as tank stats and replacing with crit/haste, you just wouldn't be able to have absurd amounts of DPS stats since you will want to gem more stam.

    4) Tank damage would be balanced around having a proper amount of stamina for a proper amount of vengeance for all tanks (so different stamina/health modifiers for instance).

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    They need to bring that cap down to 10% of HP to every tank, then up base damage on abilities. Atm the damage gap between 0 veng and max vengeance is just absurd and idiotic design, one of the reasons i quit.
    Sadly he's right. Vengeance in it's current form is just dumb. Add that some tank active mitigation mechanics scale with it rather well while others won't scale with it at all and you just get a big pile of ...

    Vengeance was introduced to help tanks to keep up with dps in 5 mans and raids at the beginning of Cata (IIRC) etc but instead of adjusting our threat generation via a variable modifier they gave us damage. Some tanks are decent at active mitigation and enjoy doing their job but fail at maximising their damage (which wasn't part of the job description when most of us signed up), right now we tend to stay for 1.5-2 full dps in 10 man and that's just not right at all. Have us back at reasonable numbers (6+7 in damage meter) and discourage healers like fistweaver and smitepriest play outside of smaller dungeons to keep them in line with the rest and we can get back to a fair environment.

    @voidspark
    20 gemslots à 240 stamina is 4800 stamina, would we get 4800 or 48000 attackpower out of that? What's with the disparity between tanking classes? Warriors get 15% more stamina, paladin 25% etc.

    I really dislike the idea of gemming stamina to add more damage while we could eat less damage when we gemmed for avoidance or mitigation. That might not be a problem for 25M with lots of gear to spare but at least on 10M it takes me ages to get two tanking sets ready.
    Last edited by klausistklaus; 2013-05-19 at 12:11 PM.

  16. #36
    The problem now with removing vengeance altogether and replacing it with more threat modifiers is it's another case of moving backwards. Blizz can't do it that easily without upsetting a lot more people than the fix would make happy.

    Sadly it's a case of the damage has already been done.

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  17. #37
    I am still baffled that ANYONE at Blizzard thought it was a good idea to make vengeance stack so high that tanks are doing more damage than DPS on some fights (and I am talking about single target, 1 boss, raid fights... but the fact that tanks do more than DPS in dungeons or trash is equally bad).

    How exactly do you justify that someone in full armor trying to take as little damage as possible is actually hurting the enemy more than a ranged dps free casting or a melee dps striking the enemy's back as hard as possible..?

    The reason it has all spiralled out of control is because during Cata Blizzard made a terrible decision that tank threat shouldn't matter anymore.... which for around 2 patches made tanking EXTREMELY boring and people complained... so then Blizzard made a decision to make tanks do the same amount (if not more) DPS on most fights than a straight DPS spec.

    I am glad it did not hurt 25 man raiding all that much, but it made a huge negative impact in the 10 man scene where tanks were stacking DPS gear and raids were figuring out ways for their tanks to take MORE damage (not less).

    Maybe they should just nerf tank damage and make threat actually matter again... and make tanks use their DPS abilities to generate threat, not top meters.

  18. #38
    Epic! Raxxed's Avatar
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    50% of 910k is still 455k.
    Still, I don't ever reach that in 25H unless i'm solo tanking qon for shits n giggles.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mammoon View Post
    I am still baffled that ANYONE at Blizzard thought it was a good idea to make vengeance stack so high that tanks are doing more damage than DPS on some fights (and I am talking about single target, 1 boss, raid fights... but the fact that tanks do more than DPS in dungeons or trash is equally bad).

    How exactly do you justify that someone in full armor trying to take as little damage as possible is actually hurting the enemy more than a ranged dps free casting or a melee dps striking the enemy's back as hard as possible..?

    The reason it has all spiralled out of control is because during Cata Blizzard made a terrible decision that tank threat shouldn't matter anymore.... which for around 2 patches made tanking EXTREMELY boring and people complained... so then Blizzard made a decision to make tanks do the same amount (if not more) DPS on most fights than a straight DPS spec.

    I am glad it did not hurt 25 man raiding all that much, but it made a huge negative impact in the 10 man scene where tanks were stacking DPS gear and raids were figuring out ways for their tanks to take MORE damage (not less).

    Maybe they should just nerf tank damage and make threat actually matter again... and make tanks use their DPS abilities to generate threat, not top meters.
    This reads just like a quote from the bible of butthurt dps.

    Theres few fights a tank outdoes the dps in run of the mill guilds. If they consistently beat dps then the dps should spend more time worrying about why they are shit, not why vengeance helps tanks get good numbers. Tanks are already in high demand, they desperately need stuff that makes them more attractive, not a legion of butthurt detractors crying over it.

    Having said that, capping vengeance at 30% of HP for 10 mans seems like a sane trade-off.

  20. #40
    Epic! Raxxed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    This reads just like a quote from the bible of butthurt dps.

    Theres few fights a tank outdoes the dps in run of the mill guilds. If they consistently beat dps then the dps should spend more time worrying about why they are shit, not why vengeance helps tanks get good numbers. Tanks are already in high demand, they desperately need stuff that makes them more attractive, not a legion of butthurt detractors crying over it.

    Having said that, capping vengeance at 30% of HP for 10 mans seems like a sane trade-off.
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