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  1. #21
    Jensen keeping it simple, no need for the CASIE aug.
    All that you have accomplised... all that you have won... yet still you lick the boots of kings.

  2. #22
    Stalin's imcompetence cost million of russian soldiers their lives. He regulary exected his officers and send soldiers on suicide missions. Later on he went completely insane.



    He had the parents of this girl under surveillance and later deported to a labor camp, because "he was afraid they could abuse their daughter's recent popularity".

  3. #23
    The fancy truth is that any Soviet leader having had similar achievements would be similarly hated and libelled nowadays.

    But no amount of Goebbels' lies can hide their russophobic nature.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Stalin was an evil piece of shit who helped defeat another evil piece of shit. Nothing more. We only allied with him out of necessity.
    Yet ally with him we did. If anything, Hitler is modern civilization's savior for giving the US and Russia a common enemy instead of fighting each other. With everyone burned out from WWII, fresh from being allies, the two countries were more hesitant to turn the cold war into a full fledged war between the two powers.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    If # of deaths is the sole criteria, I doubt the body count of an extended WW2 would have exceed Stalin’s.
    60,000,000 people died in world war II. a war which HITLER started. so yes it already exceeds his count almost 3 TIMES OVER.

  6. #26
    Epic! Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Stalin was nothing compared to Mao Zedong. His policies of aggressive agricultural development starved to death nearly 72 million people and put many others in political prison camps. Communism at its finest.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    People say the want to be good rulers, yet the intend to be rulers. I don't blame hime for being a little tyrannical. After all he did command his military to victory. That's noble enough.
    Stalin killed more people than you've ever met. If you think he's anything but a rampaging demon, LEARN HISTORY!

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Stalin was an evil piece of shit who helped defeat another evil piece of shit. Nothing more. We only allied with him out of necessity.
    Pretty much this, at the end of the day... welcome to politics. When alliances of convenience are probably necessary, and mostly everyone's evil, even your friends (after all enemy of your enemy...)

  9. #29
    Nope, next question.

    I read something he said about the mass rapes of German women during the occupation of Berlin the other day, essentially saying you can't blame soldiers for having a bit of fun after all that marching and fighting. Fuck that guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Fullmetal89 View Post
    Stalin was nothing compared to Mao Zedong. His policies of aggressive agricultural development starved to death nearly 72 million people and put many others in political prison camps. Communism at its finest.
    20-60 million is in the same ballpark as Mao.

    The number of deaths to statist governments in the 20th century is shocking. Between the communists and the fascists, we lost so very many lives.

  11. #31
    Epic! Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breadisfunny View Post
    60,000,000 people died in world war II. a war which HITLER started. so yes it already exceeds his count almost 3 TIMES OVER.
    To be fair, Hitler would only really be responsible for deaths in Europe + North Africa. Most of the deaths on Soviet soil were due to their "never surrender" mentality and using people as cannon fodder. So I'd say Stalin is as much to blame for many of the deaths in Russia. Then there's the mass genocides committed by the Japanese, by the way something that had been going on years before WW2. China was literally raped and pillaged by the Japanese they killed somewhere around 6 million under the leadership of General Hideki Tōjō. Who by the way was a devious and demented as Hitler, look up Unit 731.

    Not that I'm trying to downplay Hitler's mass genocide, but it isn't that simple. Ultimately you can't blame Hitler for starting WW2, truth is the way that the allies treated the defeated Germany after WW1 was asking for retaliation. The environment that lead to WW2 was created by the consequences of the failed 'Treaty of Versailles'.
    Last edited by Fullmetal89; 2013-05-17 at 07:31 AM.
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  12. #32
    Heh, are you blaming Woodrow Wilson for WWII?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    I am willing to argue that partisans had a bigger impact on foiling German advancement than the military. Russia, just like with Napoleon, you pack your shit and got east, while father winter does the rest.
    USSR's tactics had evolved greatly during the wars with Finland and Japan. From the leftovers of the purges, new generals emerged that felt free to try out new military theories: Deep Battle was on par or maybe even more advanced than the German concept of Blitzkrieg when it comes to the best use of masses of armoured vehicles.
    The USSR used a lot of cannon fodder, yes. But thinking that it was cannon fodder that defeated the Germans is naive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gahmuret View Post
    Stalin was just as evil as Hitler, probably even worse.
    Well, with Stalin you could save your life by agreeing with him and saying how great things were with him in command.
    With Hitler, if you were a Jew, nothing could save you.
    Someone who kills for political reasons ranks as less evil, in my book, than someone who kills for birth circumstances.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Heh, are you blaming Woodrow Wilson for WWII?
    No not Woodrow Wilson, blaming the European Allies that divided up Germany and told them to go F-themselves and repay all war reparations. President WW actually didn't agree with the treaty he thought it was incredibly unfair and a bad idea; which is why he didn't sign it.
    Last edited by Fullmetal89; 2013-05-17 at 06:54 AM.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fullmetal89 View Post
    To be fair, Hitler would only really be responsible for deaths in Europe + North Africa. Most of the deaths on Soviet soil was due to their "never surrender" mentality and using people as cannon fodder. So I'd say Stalin is as much to blame for many of the deaths in Russia.
    Slavs were also considered "untermensch", same as jews and gypsies. Captured cities and towns were not spared, and if they didn't kill any more civilian population in the territory they occupied was because they were afraid of running out of bullets.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 06:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fullmetal89 View Post
    No not Woodrow Wilson, blaming the European Allies that divided up Germany and told them to go F-themselves and repay all war reparations. President WW actually didn't agree with the treaty he thought it was incredibly unfair and a bad idea; which is why he didn't sign it.
    Quite true. It was mostly the French leadership, who wanted to humiliate Germany as payback for the defeat they had suffered 20 or 30 years earlier.
    Even the British (not the German's greatest fans) thought it was stupid to place such a harsh peace on them.

  16. #36
    It's fitting that the European theater was essentially decided by a battle between the 2 countries who originally started the war by co-invading Poland after signing the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.

    Hitler and Stalin were extremely paranoid of one another. It was what led to the Nazi attack of Russia, with Hitler wanting to beat Stalin to the punch.

    Stalin wasn't a savior to anyone but his own ambitions.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Yet ally with him we did. If anything, Hitler is modern civilization's savior for giving the US and Russia a common enemy instead of fighting each other. With everyone burned out from WWII, fresh from being allies, the two countries were more hesitant to turn the cold war into a full fledged war between the two powers.
    Cue Red Alert?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I don't blame hime for being a little tyrannical.
    A little?
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    After all he did command his military to victory. That's noble enough.
    You dont know much it seems, if anything he is resposible for almost losing the war by his purges that all but wiped out all the officers with experience.
    As a military "leader" Stalin was worthless.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Whitey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Title says it all. If Russia had fallen, germany would have had room to finish what they started in the battle of britain, and perform the necessary acts to bring about the end of the RAF, the royal navy, and Operation Sea Lion.

    The big question, after the millions he slew in his purges, does his leadership on the battlefield across eastern europe, and crushing hitler make up for his brutal noose he held on his own people? Is he just entirely evil? I do not believe russia could have defeated the hitler without his cruelty, and stomach for casualties. Infact, if you were a soldier and encircled, you needed to fight until the bitter end, if you broke out? You were shot.

    So tell me MMO-Champion, what do you think about this?
    Stalin had nothing to do with Germans not being able to overcome Russians, winter did it, even partisans played a bigger part than the actual army.
    The only thing Russian army had going for them was sheer numbers, and even that wasn't enough to compensate for how inadequate it was. Take a look at WWII Finland vs. Russia for example. It's not just that the Finnish were beastly (which they were), the Russians just couldn't keep their shit together in the field.
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  20. #40
    Epic! Fullmetal89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Slavs were also considered "untermensch", same as jews and gypsies. Captured cities and towns were not spared, and if they didn't kill any more civilian population in the territory they occupied was because they were afraid of running out of bullets.
    Yeah that's true. I think they where more worried about keeping up the Blitzkrieg then running out of bullets. The Russian winter has been the bane of many conquerors. Fortunately for the allies, Hitler had an incredibly stupid command system where he had the final say on every single military attack plan. So instead of going straight for Moscow he had the Germans turn around and take some pointless oilfields. Slowing the Germans long enough for them to catch the winter and lose the momentum of the Blitzkrieg. In the process starving/freezing his men essentially rendering his army useless in the Russian front. I believe if it wasn't for that one mistake Hitler might have actually won the war.

    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Quite true. It was mostly the French leadership, who wanted to humiliate Germany as payback for the defeat they had suffered 20 or 30 years earlier.
    Even the British (not the German's greatest fans) thought it was stupid to place such a harsh peace on them.
    Yup very true. The Treaty of Versailles was a great example of 'how not to deal with your defeated enemy'. After WW2 ended with Japans surrender the United States did an incredibly good job of repairing the infrastructure of Japan, loaning them large sums of money and aid to help them rebuild. As well as having them renounce their 'bushido' way of warfare and writing in Article 9 on the Japanese constitution stating that they would not build an army and renounce war. Making them allies with the United States and using the U.S. influence and military might to protect them in that region of the world. It might look like a raw deal but its turned out a hell of a lot better for both countries then what the Europeans did at Versailles.
    Last edited by Fullmetal89; 2013-05-17 at 07:20 AM.
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