View Poll Results: As a Horde player, would you rather side with the Darkspear Rebellion or Warchief?

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  • Darkspear Rebellion

    340 71.58%
  • Warchief

    135 28.42%
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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    The Stonetalon event has been hugely debated in lore circles. Was he really killing Krom'gar as punishment for blowing up the druid school? Or was it more a way for him to cover up something he openly ordered, but didn't want to take the heat on with the Tauren? Garrosh may be a bit of a meat head, but he ain't that stupid..
    He also dsnt care for diplomatic "savy" and niceities
    If he was trying to cover that up why didnt he cover up Theramore and what not? If he was inclined to appear "nice" to the other races?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 01:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    Likeable doesn't mean flawless.
    Part of the reason I liked him during Cata, he was both ruthless and honorable.

    Like Stonetalon, he wants to punish Krom'gar, but instead of imprisoning or lecturing him, he just kills him right on the spot. Even turning to vent against the player till the Tauren stayed his hand.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #242
    I feel like they're underplaying the whole Jana going bats shit crazy thing personally. All she's doing is butting heads with the Sunreavers like it even matters; If she had truly gone mad nothing could stop her fury. Perhaps with the upcoming patches we'll see more of that, it'd be interesting to see the alliance lose Jaina as well as the Horde losing Garrosh.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    dsnt mean everything she said was completely false
    Does not mean everything she said was true either.

    They specifically used Krenna and Gorgonna in that short story to show there are two sides to the orcs, those that hate living in the desert and those that don't mind it and understand it.

    For example the book Cycle of Hatred went to decent lengths to point out the orcs had it pretty good. They were the only ones with farmland, forcing Theramore to do a lot of fish trade with the Horde since Dustwallow was too damp to grow food. It only started becoming a problem when the Burning Blade clear cut all the lumber at Thunder Ridge, which is what ended up forcing the Horde into Ashenvale and almost started the war back up between the Horde and Theramore.

    The Cataclysm didn't help much by damaging the Barrens and cutting off much trade. Even Garrosh himself isn't helping, since we learn in Baine's short story that Garrosh's heavy war machine manufacturing has caused the local fresh water supplies of Durotar to get poisoned.

    The fact is, Durotar and the Barrens are decent lands. Krenna was used as a way to point out that "decent is not good enough, this place sucks" to make Garrosh and his ideals of conquest seem more matured and reasoned. Instead he has only do much to make the lands worst then before, which only further drives his ego that he needs to conquerer a new home. It's the Old Horde mentality all over again (We got good land, we destroy land, we find new land).

    He also dsnt care for diplomatic "savy" and niceities
    If he was trying to cover that up why didnt he cover up Theramore and what not? If he was inclined to appear "nice" to the other races?
    Theramore was not a neutral location. They were openly sending troops into the Barrens using the new highway, giving passage for the Alliance to attack Southern Barrens. Garrosh was not going to get much trouble from the Tauren as a whole because by that point the Tauren despised Theramore because of the murders of Tuarajo. (Except for Baine, who we know has ties to Jaina and Anduin) He likely didn't realize that the method would end up looking horrible in the eyes of the Tauren since the mana bomb was way more destructive then most realized.

    The events at Stonetalon were different because not only was the school actually neutral, but because the tauren tribe in the area didn't agree with the attack, Krom'gar burned down the village and killed nearly all of them. If that got back to Baine it could have lead to the Tauren breaking off from the Horde, which in turn we learned in the Baine short story, would have screwed Garrosh. Thus Garrosh covered it up by killing the leader and "blaming" him for all the troubles, thus removing his own guilt.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2013-05-17 at 02:06 PM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by dariusz2k View Post
    I feel like they're underplaying the whole Jana going bats shit crazy thing personally. All she's doing is butting heads with the Sunreavers like it even matters; If she had truly gone mad nothing could stop her fury. Perhaps with the upcoming patches we'll see more of that, it'd be interesting to see the alliance lose Jaina as well as the Horde losing Garrosh.
    Jaina's rage is pretty grounded though, since she has Kalecgos, Varian-out of all people- and others she still respects to reel her in a bit. Garrosh seemed to respect no authority, be it Thrall or Saurfang.

    If anything, the Alliance may gain Jaina (who used to be passive) and get back Dalaran (which may tip the scales a bit after the many losses of Alliance possessions over the course of Cata).

    With Deathwing and Ragnaros gone, the Alliance may also gain Furion, which likely means bad times for northern Kalimdor Horde everywhere and at least equalize the Horde getting Thrall back.
    Last edited by earthwarden; 2013-05-17 at 02:22 PM.

  5. #245
    I have never liked Garrosh. From the moment we first met his sniveling, whiny hide in Nagrand, to his brash, hot-headed foolishness from Warsong Hold (he's been aching to go to war with the Alliance since before that expansion even started) to him picking fights--with both Alliance AND Horde--at every opportunity after the Cataclysm and now his blind, desperate pursuit of ultimate power in Pandaria...how has this come as a surprise to anyone?

    His "honorable" moments have always been far overshadowed by his impatience and warmongering, and now, I surmise, he's being manipulated by some darker power in Pandaria--and it probably wasn't all that hard to push him in this direction!

    I say all of this without a hint of bias; my main is an orc and has been for nigh on 6 years now, at the least. He's been a boil on the ass of the Horde since he was first introduced. I look forward to rooting his ass out (and not in the Australian sense of the word).

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwarden View Post
    Jaina's rage is pretty grounded though, since she has Krasus, Varian-out of all people- and others she still respects to reel her in a bit. Garrosh seemed to respect no authority, be it Thrall or Saurfang.

    If anything, the Alliance may gain Jaina (who used to be passive) and get back Dalaran (which may tip the scales a bit after the many losses of Alliance possessions over the course of Cata).
    The 5.1 questline pretty much confirms Dalaran lore wise is now alliance again. Her rage is only grounded now against Garry. During TOW she was pretty much on a murdering spree with her elementals. It did get stopped before it went anywhere though

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwarden View Post
    Jaina's rage is pretty grounded though, since she has Krasus, Varian-out of all people- and others she still respects to reel her in a bit. Garrosh seemed to respect no authority, be it Thrall or Saurfang.

    If anything, the Alliance may gain Jaina (who used to be passive) and get back Dalaran (which may tip the scales a bit after the many losses of Alliance possessions over the course of Cata).
    It would be neat to have Dalaran move again, or to build a new floating city in Azeroth.

  8. #248
    Ha, how ignorant. A lot of Horde players like Garrosh for making the Horde less like the Alliance. I certainly do, since I focus more on how he treats the Alliance than anything else. However, if it must be done, I would side with whichever side Sylvanas winds up on. Much as I like Garrosh, I like her more. Trolls are worthless in my eyes, so I would hope they died in the process along with goblins.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    I admire your tenacity to have that done, I really do. But.. doesn't it feel dissappointing knowing the character its themed on is now hated by so many and is just going to be a loot chest?
    So I should feel bad because everyone else hates him? That's their opinion, not mine.

    I just liked his armor, enough to tattoo it on me. Don't read too hard in between the lines, sometimes the curtains are JUST blue...
    I'm jumpin in this sh*t, like a pogo on a potty.

  10. #250
    Not Krasus (unfortunately RIP), I guess you mean Kalec(gos) ?

    Jaina definitely has a reason for her rage. I very much liked her and Thrall's constant struggle to achieve peace between both factions, still wish that, but damn she's right in being mad right now. I also love the Blood Elves and it seems that Lor'Themar really didn't know about the whole "invading Darnassus" thing, but Aethas Sunreaver did and I guess Rommath too.
    Was Jaina wrong in how much she lashed out at them? I'm not sure. At first I thought she was a bit too hardcore but, may still be true, but she had to do *something*, and fast, because you can't let a slap in the face like that stand. She should return the innocent Sunreavers and other Blood Elf inhabitants of Dalaran. But the Blood Elves also have to clean house, remove the traitors, those who supported Garrosh against the wishes of Lor'Themar, especially now that they're pretty much in open revolt against Garrosh in 5.3

    I think of all people, Horde included, Jaina should definitely play a big role in bringing Garrosh down. I guess she will too, with the powers of the Thunder King. Who else has a legitimate reason to play a major part in defeating him? Vol'Jin, Baine. Funnily enough, not Lor'Themar, although I like him. Nor Sylavannas. Hell, not even Varian, as much as Jaina or Vol'Jin and Baine.

    I am an ardent supporter of Thrall's Horde and his vision and I hope after the defeat of Garrosh Jaina may again, in time, open up to the idea of supporting peace between Horde and Alliance.

    As for Darnassus - yeah, give it back to the Alliance completely, with the High Elves as a playable race. Hell, might even have the High Elves and Blood Elves reunite and leave the Horde and rejoin the Alliance. Varian did want to enter into negotiations with them.

    This thing with Garrosh has huge potential in shaking up the entire world of WoW, politically etc. I really hope they use that opportunity.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    I can't really complaing about putting the poor orc in Big Bad Guys skin anymore. I consider it lazy writing, ruining a once great character and so on, but let's leave that for a moment. Blizzard has pretty much stated "In Mists of Pandaria a figure EVERY player wants to kill and loot badly is Garrosh".
    He wasn't really ever that great, you know...

    The guy was a whiny little bitch in TBC, an asshole in Wrath, and he had a redeeming moment or two in Cata but overall he was obviously inept at his job (as an example: he sent a leader over into the Barrens to secure the area and then had to send someone ELSE to clean up that guy's mess) and too self-invested to be a good Warchief. Nah, he was never really a great character. He's got a colorful past and had promise, but that's really about it.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-05-17 at 02:19 PM.
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  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by one_entity View Post
    Not Krasus (unfortunately RIP), I guess you mean Kalec(gos) ?
    Oh right, my bad. Thanks, and edited.

    Quote Originally Posted by one_entity View Post
    As for Darnassus - yeah, give it back to the Alliance completely, with the High Elves as a playable race.
    D-don't you mean Dalaran?
    Last edited by earthwarden; 2013-05-17 at 02:27 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    He wasn't really ever that great, you know...

    The guy was a whiny little bitch in TBC, an asshole in Wrath, and he had a redeeming moment or two in Cata but overall he was obviously inept at his job (as an example: he sent a leader over into the Barrens to secure the area and then had to send someone ELSE to clean up that guy's mess) and too self-invested to be a good Warchief. Nah, he was never really a great character. He's got a colorful past and had promise, but that's really about it.
    This, lets remember though he is technically 1-0 in duels, he was GOING to lose to Thrall and ONLY beat Cairne due to his blade being poisoned, no poison and he would have died to an old cow.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Does not mean everything she said was true either.

    They specifically used Krenna and Gorgonna in that short story to show there are two sides to the orcs, those that hate living in the desert and those that don't mind it and understand it.

    For example the book Cycle of Hatred went to decent lengths to point out the orcs had it pretty good. They were the only ones with farmland, forcing Theramore to do a lot of fish trade with the Horde since Dustwallow was too damp to grow food. It only started becoming a problem when the Burning Blade clear cut all the lumber at Thunder Ridge, which is what ended up forcing the Horde into Ashenvale and almost started the war back up between the Horde and Theramore.

    The Cataclysm didn't help much by damaging the Barrens and cutting off much trade. Even Garrosh himself isn't helping, since we learn in Baine's short story that Garrosh's heavy war machine manufacturing has caused the local fresh water supplies of Durotar to get poisoned.

    The fact is, Durotar and the Barrens are decent lands. Krenna was used as a way to point out that "decent is not good enough, this place sucks" to make Garrosh and his ideals of conquest seem more matured and reasoned. Instead he has only do much to make the lands worst then before, which only further drives his ego that he needs to conquerer a new home. It's the Old Horde mentality all over again (We got good land, we destroy land, we find new land).



    Theramore was not a neutral location. They were openly sending troops into the Barrens using the new highway, giving passage for the Alliance to attack Southern Barrens. Garrosh was not going to get much trouble from the Tauren as a whole because by that point the Tauren despised Theramore because of the murders of Tuarajo. (Except for Baine, who we know has ties to Jaina and Anduin) He likely didn't realize that the method would end up looking horrible in the eyes of the Tauren since the mana bomb was way more destructive then most realized.

    The events at Stonetalon were different because not only was the school actually neutral, but because the tauren tribe in the area didn't agree with the attack, Krom'gar burned down the village and killed nearly all of them. If that got back to Baine it could have lead to the Tauren breaking off from the Horde, which in turn we learned in the Baine short story, would have screwed Garrosh. Thus Garrosh covered it up by killing the leader and "blaming" him for all the troubles, thus removing his own guilt.
    Sorry but your assumption is partially wrong, and the prove is that, while Krenna said that, Gorgonna essentially confirmed it; simply Gorgonna interpreted the whole situation in a different way of Krenna; she said that the orcs need to have a bit of pain and hard-life as a way for atone the mistakes of their race, this is the way Gorgonna thinks of Thrall's decision to live in Durotar. Garrosh then says that these orcs doesn't have faults, the mistakes the orc race made were of their parents mostly, but then Gorgonna said that their very green skin is the sin of their parent's mistakes, something that a Mag'har like him couldn't understand. But Garrosh haven't agreed with this statement at all.

    The irony of the short story is that Garrosh started viciously attacking Krenna for shit-talking of Thrall, but ended with him having the first doubt that the way Thrall was leading the orcs wasn't right. But Gorgonna doesn't say that is not a hard life in Durotar, simply that SHE understand the reason, this doesn't mean that many other orcs do it aswell.
    Plus, the events of Heart of War were pre-Shattering, and at that point Durotar was harsh but "ok". After the Cataclysm things turned to be dramatic. There is more than a statement both in game that in the novels that the situation for the orcs in Durotar after the Cataclysm is not that joyful.


    About the Stonetalon quest i think is overall speculation, Garrosh is not stupid, but not a fine plotter and schemer too, he's not the kind of character that thoughtfully study a malicious plan in his throne room.

    as an example: he sent a leader over into the Barrens to secure the area and then had to send someone ELSE to clean up that guy's mess
    Well, he sent someone else for see what was wrong in the whole situation in the Southern Barrens, and when the "someone else" discovered that the reason was the ineptitude of the leader, he asked to leave the position to him; he refused, decided to duel him, losing and begging for his life; but you know, the mantra of Hellscream's reign is "Victory or Death", so.....
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-17 at 02:57 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Badhairday View Post
    People act as if Blizzard suddenly decided to take a good guy and turn him evil on a whim, but who's to say they didn't plan for him to turn out this way from the start? Storywise they plan ahead expansions, and MoP is all about Garrosh. I for one think they planned to make him evil when they first introduced him, and I don't think they did it poorly at all.
    Garrosh has some of the worst writing I've ever seen and his actions make absolutely no sense. If he was pre-planned to be evil, Blizzard has done an awful job. In Burning Crusade, he was practically the opposite of what he is now. In Wrath, he was awesome. Cataclysm, he killed a general for being much like he, himself, is now and killing innocents.

    He could have been an awesome rallying point for the entirety of the Horde but instead was written into a corner depicting him as a one-sided warmonger, his writing often contradicting himself or making absolutely no sense, even when taken in context, compared to previous actions.

  16. #256
    Yes I am not so sure why people call him that great. He never really did anything.

    In BC, he stood around whining about his life.

    In WOTLK, he was shown to be so inept as his job that Saurfang had to keep pulling everything back together from the shadows. For example when Garrosh sends us on that suicide mission, which Saurfang in disguise has to save us from. Even half his commanders he brought with him were inept, Krenna being so destructive we had to kill her, and Korm Blackscar was the guy that promoted what turned into the Broken Front, a huge blow to both forces. Agmar and Saurfang Jr were the only ones shown to be in any way competent.

    In Cataclysm, he...

    Took over Azshara, only to have it obliterate by the Goblins. Now he has a bunch of land riddled with bombs and a giant canon that does not even work (yes, it does not work, look at the beach out in the direction of the canon, the canon balls barely go a couple of feet)

    Attacked Ashenvale and brought in the Shatterspear, which was his most successful campaign, at least till the Night Elves obliterated the Shatterspear and then retook all the lands back to the edge of the Barrens and Durotar. This is canon both from the Alliance players side of the story (If you play both side, you will notice the Alliance characters quests start where the Horde players quests end, with the Alliance player "undoing" all of what the Horde player did.) and in the book Wolfheart.

    Took large sections of Stonetalon, only for the events with Krom'gar to cause him to lose it all (He disbanded Krom'gar's army at the end of the quest chain, basically abandoning the region.)

    This is just some of the "great" things he accomplished in Cataclysm. Let's not forget other things like lost half the Barrens, poisoned his own water supplies, pushed out the Frostwolves and put them into seclusion (though to be fair the Forsaken had a lot more to do with that.), and got almost his entire attack force going into Twilight Highlands killed because he thought shooting at a few Alliance boats was more important then protecting his armada. Very nice of him to swim onto the beach after I did all the work with the Dragonmaw though.

    The only areas the Horde took and held were in Lordaeron, and that was because of the Forsaken and Sylvanas.

    This is not even getting into MoP, where the stupidity of his campaigns are not getting legendary and have lead to the whole Horde going into open rebellion. The guy is inept as a leader as it gets.

    Sorry but your assumption is wrong, and the prove is that, while Krenna said that, Gorgonna essentially confirmed it; simply Gorgonna interpreted the whole situation in a different way of Krenna; she said that the orcs need to have a bit of pain and hard-life as a way for atone the mistakes of their race, this is the way Gorgonna thinks of Thrall's decision to live in Durotar. Garrosh then says that these orcs doesn't have faults, the mistakes the orc race made were of their parents mostly, but then Gorgonna said that their very green skin is the sin of their parent's mistakes, something that a Mag'har like him couldn't understand. But Garrosh haven't agreed with this statement at all.

    The irony of the short story is that Garrosh started viciously attacking Krenna for shit-talking of Thrall, but ended with him having the first doubt that the way Thrall was leading the orcs wasn't right. But Gorgonna doesn't say that is not a hard life in Durotar, simply that SHE understand the reason, this doesn't mean that many other orcs do it aswell.
    Plus, you're forgetting that the events of Heart of War were pre-Shattering, and at that point Durotar was harsh but "ok". After the Cataclysm things turned to be dramatic.
    Where was anything you said counter to what I said? Like I pointed out, Krenna was the one basically pointing out that life sucked. Gorgonna was the one pointing out that things were decent and understandable. She admitted that life was harsh, but that part of the reason for that is atonement, but it was not so harsh that people were dying in the streets. It was showing two sides of the whole issue. I never said Gorgonna saw living in Durotar as the lap of luxury. Most orcs I am sure would love living in Ashenvale in the shade rather then a desert.

    It still does not stop the fact that at the time, life was not as bad as misses kneecapper was complaining about. The Cataclysm, as you said, didn't happened yet.

    About the Stonetalon quest i think is overall speculation, Garrosh is not stupid, but not a fine plotter and schemer too, he's not the kind of character that thoughtfully study a malicious plan in his throne room.
    Who says? We have not seen him utilize intricate, mastermind like plans, but he HAS schemed. Hell, it was hinted during the Goblin starting zone that the whole event of SI:7 attacking Thrall was ultimately a scheme of his that failed (Remember when you hand him the insignia and his face turns white when he realizes Thrall didn't get caught?). It's totally in his nature to scheme out of his own mistakes, because mistakes can hurt ones pride, and Garrosh is not one to let his pride get hurt like that.
    Last edited by Grocalis; 2013-05-17 at 03:00 PM.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    This is canon both from the Alliance players side of the story (If you play both side, you will notice the Alliance characters quests start where the Horde players quests end, with the Alliance player "undoing" all of what the Horde player did.) and in the book Wolfheart.
    Eh?
    From what I understand the Horde and Alliance quest lines happen at the same time, with Wolfheart taking place before all that.

    They both end at the same point. The Horde player movin into Stonetalon, with the Alliacne player tailing them while keepin tabs on the giant ass bomb.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #258
    Just a small reminder that: we know that Garrosh is being manipulated and controlled by the Sha of: Pride. Since we are only finding out about it now, people assume it was instant. The fact is, since they entered pandaria. the sha has been working it's magic. That is why we fight Garrosh. Just sayin.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowchikabow View Post
    The fact is, since they entered pandaria. the sha has been working it's magic. That is why we fight Garrosh. Just sayin.
    does this mean there is a sneak peak of 5.4 that I missed somewhere?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    does this mean there is a sneak peak of 5.4 that I missed somewhere?
    Nah, he's just talkin out his butt.

    There's a dev twitter post (I THINK it was a twitter post) that said Garrosh isn't being manipulated. He's just a dick.
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