View Poll Results: As a Horde player, would you rather side with the Darkspear Rebellion or Warchief?

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  • Darkspear Rebellion

    340 71.58%
  • Warchief

    135 28.42%
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  1. #321
    Bloodsail Admiral Lostwood's Avatar
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    There's a difference between liking him as a character to further a story and liking him as a person.

    Some of you don't seem to know the difference.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    There's a difference between liking him as a character to further a story and liking him as a person.

    Some of you don't seem to know the difference.
    Garrosh in either aspect is still not a well written character. For any wrestling fans it reminds me of when they try to push someone to be a face and when the fans don't react to them they make him a heel next week.

  3. #323
    Bloodsail Admiral Lostwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher069 View Post
    Garrosh in either aspect is still not a well written character. For any wrestling fans it reminds me of when they try to push someone to be a face and when the fans don't react to them they make him a heel next week.
    I do fully agree with that. However, his introduction alone has provided a certain storyline.

    If it were up to the fans of either faction, there would be no change/progression, seeing as no fan wants to see their faction 'get hurt', even if it is needed to further a storyline. If this was happening to the Alliance I would be arguing the exact same

    Don't just look at it from a role-play perspective, but also consider the possibly interesting storyline it provides.
    Last edited by Lostwood; 2013-05-18 at 03:41 PM.

  4. #324
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    He was such a good character ("good character" as in good character development) in Cata. He has potential. But Blizzard's content direction seems to have been swayed by the public opinion of the WoW playerbase that had their doubts about Garrosh. They definitely weren't planning this back when they were working on Cata and decided to make him warchief. It's a shame.
    Man, I've got bags under my eyes... BAGS OF MONEY!
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  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearmyth View Post
    He was such a good character ("good character" as in good character development) in Cata. He has potential. But Blizzard's content direction seems to have been swayed by the public opinion of the WoW playerbase that had their doubts about Garrosh. They definitely weren't planning this back when they were working on Cata and decided to make him warchief. It's a shame.
    yes, they were. vol'jin swears to kill garrosh at level 3. at level 3, for god's sake.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  6. #326
    The sad truth about this whole sorry mess is that blizz needed a named baddie to end the xpac with they knew people was sneering at the whole panda thing and they knew that they couldn't get people excited about killing the last sha or maybe y'sharrf so they said hey which character who isnt dead do the fans hate the most and they heard well its either garrosh or varian cause there both dbags so they went with garrosh so they did a 360 with his character when they couldve easily done it with varian.

    I mean look at how varian went from a hot headed prick to a complete fucking boy scout!

    This whole thing reeks of fan service so they can get MoP done and dusted its the reason they came out and said hey garrosh is gonna be the villian at the very start completely ruining any surprise so people would stick with it to the end

  7. #327
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    You see, as an evolving storyline this seems like a sudden turn of events, but this will make far more sense in retrospect I feel.

    I'm pretty sure they set Garrosh up right from the start in TBC to be evil. Garrosh is to Arthas as Northwatch is to Stratholme, etc.

    Just as Arthas started being influenced by an evil power partway through his journey, I'm sure Garrosh is now too. I thought that was incredibly obvious that he was no longer sane as early as 5.1.

    In Patch 5.3, it's blatantly obvious that Garrosh has left the building and that his mind has been replaced with tentacles and spikes or whatever.



    Eh, the rage seems genetic, tbh. Grom was always angry too.

    Grom and Garrosh are very, very similar people - the difference is that Grom was the better man in the end and was able to fight the corruption. Garrosh still doesn't see his corruption.
    Garrosh and Arthas have some good comparison in their paths to "villany" but there is a substantial difference between these two characters.

    Arthas was basically a good man and a decisive leader with a strong personality; but was too passionate and was victim of his own feelings, and for this was easy prey of hate, vengeance and in general his "dark side", and for these weaknesses he has been brought to path of corruption and damnation.

    Garrosh instead never had "darkness" in his heart, nor he has never been an absolutely good man like Arthas almost was. While Arthas had "hidden" flaws, Garrosh's ones were pretty obvious, first in Nagrand, then in Northrend, and in the end in Cataclysm (plus short stories/novels) and were not caused by some hidden darkness, hate and bloodlust, but only for his personal doubts and indecisions. He's so full of pride because Thrall showed to him that his father was a hero, never truly understanding what his father truly was, and think that for "honor" him and his sacrifice he must lead the orcs to a future where they will see prosperity, but without becoming slaves of no one for gain power (instead Grom's actions made the entire orchish race the pawns, slaves and tools of the Burning Legion).

    The problem is that this pride is not spontaneous, is somehow strained and so excessive, because the awareness that his father was not a shameful figure but a badass hero is almost all that sustain his self-confidence, and so he keep it to the heavens.

    He have almost his father traits, but Garrosh is more naive and malleable in comparison, he have a "weak" core as Golden said, he's not steady in his convinctions, ideals and decisions, and for this he's crossing the "deadly line"; he doesn't have the strength to belive in what he want to belive; then add to the situation a clever advisor that is the complete opposite of the word "honor"; add it the probable involvement of the Sha of Pride on the table, and the mess is good and done.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-18 at 04:49 PM.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    I do fully agree with that. However, his introduction alone has provided a certain storyline.

    If it were up to the fans of either faction, there would be no change/progression, seeing as no fan wants to see their faction 'get hurt', even if it is needed to further a storyline. If this was happening to the Alliance I would be arguing the exact same

    Don't just look at it from a role-play perspective, but also consider the possibly interesting storyline it provides.
    That's not a roleplaying perspective. That's a perspective of people who don't write, or don't understand how storytelling functions. What you've described in this post is exactly the roleplaying perspective.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    yes, they were. vol'jin swears to kill garrosh at level 3. at level 3, for god's sake.
    Really?

    "OEMFG HE SWEARS SO IT MUST HAPPEN!!!!!"

    Blizzard is really going overboard with foreshadowing and plot armor recently...

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Nearmyth View Post
    He was such a good character ("good character" as in good character development) in Cata. He has potential. But Blizzard's content direction seems to have been swayed by the public opinion of the WoW playerbase that had their doubts about Garrosh. They definitely weren't planning this back when they were working on Cata and decided to make him warchief. It's a shame.
    There's just one quest where he's portrayed in a good light and there's a veritable mountain of subtext which says the guy was hardly as good as people seem to think he is. The guy's made so many stupid mistakes and worst of all he's made an atmosphere where he can get away with it because nobody wants to step up and slap him on the back of the head.

  11. #331
    Bloodsail Admiral Lostwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    That's not a roleplaying perspective. That's a perspective of people who don't write, or don't understand how storytelling functions. What you've described in this post is exactly the roleplaying perspective.
    edit: Alright, perhaps I'm using the wrong words to explain myself. Perhaps you can help me out. What I'm trying to say is that the overall storyline isn't taken into consideration by many, in favor of having ones own faction be/stay super duper awesome.
    Last edited by Lostwood; 2013-05-18 at 04:08 PM.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Lostwood View Post
    edit: Alright. How would you articulate it?
    Roleplaying is, at its core, the act of telling a story. To look at this subject from a roleplaying perspective inherently means that you (should) understand what story progression is, that it's important, and that it does require sacrifice in some way shape or form.

    Basically, your post made a distinction between the roleplaying perspective and a storytelling perspective. I'm saying that they are one and the same.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-05-18 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #333
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    There's just one quest where he's portrayed in a good light and there's a veritable mountain of subtext which says the guy was hardly as good as people seem to think he is. The guy's made so many stupid mistakes and worst of all he's made an atmosphere where he can get away with it because nobody wants to step up and slap him on the back of the head.
    And he is still better character than army of mary sues and overpowered flawless protagonists blizzard spewed since cata. Now i understand why they removed armor penetration at the end of wotlk. So all these characters can live, save within they plot armors.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    And he is still better character than army of mary sues and overpowered flawless protagonists blizzard spewed since cata. Now i understand why they removed armor penetration at the end of wotlk. So all these characters can live, save within they plot armors.
    I don't think you know what a mary sue is if you think Blizzard has made an army of them

  15. #335
    I am Murloc! Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I don't think you know what a mary sue is if you think Blizzard has made an army of them
    I guess "tactical squad" would be better term.

  16. #336
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Garrosh is a character who has gone beyond the concepts of reasonable doubt. He hadn't crossed that line in cata.. kind of, but he was walking towards it without stopping to even question his actions, and it crossed over that line into full on villain mode without pause. Killing darkspears, corrupting orcs, attempted killing on minors, using bombs to slaugher thousends in a single move, dishonor and lies, he is worse then anything his father was, and yet people still want to believe he's just like grom.
    Garrosh is ALMOST like Grom, and we never saw Grom as Warchief of the Horde, so is hard to belive that during an ipothetic "Grom's reign", he would have taken different decisions; probably he would have taken all the same that Garrosh took in Cata. But, indeed, Grommash wouldn't never used a "fake battle" and a mana bomb for destroy Theramore, Grom would have just used his fury and his axe for submit it. The irony in all of this is that Garrosh is far less bloodthirsty compared to his father, Grom desired dominance and power for the sole sake it when he lived in Draenor, even before drinking the demon blood; Garrosh instead doesn't love power just because he loves it, there is not even a bit of his characterization that hint that. Grom just died as a hero, but lived as a villain for 3/4 of his life, and was not a better person of Garrosh.

    But Grom, on the other hand, was a "better orc". He had TRUE pride and was strong in his convinctions, despite his flaws. Garrosh's pride is strained, he use it for sustain his self-confidence, but basically Garrosh, instead of Grom, in his core is weak, and the prove was shown to anyone in Nagrand. He doesn't really know what is the best thing to do for reach his goal, and for this he will just hears the advice of someone that share, or fake to share his feeling; he'll immediatly trust such person, and if this person suggests to him that using dishonorable tactics (but i bet that Malkorok is smart enough to call them in a more "appealing way") are necessary for reach his goal, he will simply do so.

    Nor Grommash or Garrosh were and are evil in their core, this is what make them similar, plus all a bunch of various traits they share. But they have different flaws and weaknesses, because while both Hellscream, they remain different persons. The big problem is that Garrosh's flaws are leading not only him, but his entire race to maybe an even worse and evil path than his father, and he is not even able to see it: instead of making the orcs slaves of evil forces, like Grom did, he's making his very race that force of evil.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-18 at 05:17 PM.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    I guess "tactical squad" would be better term.
    Not really. There's been very few mary sues in WoW... like... one, off the top of my head.

    Again, pretty sure you don't know what they really are and you're just using the term to say you don't like that character or how he or she developed.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I don't think you know what a mary sue is if you think Blizzard has made an army of them
    Thrall's story has been the epitome of Mary Sue for a looong time.
    Prince Anduin is another one-dimensional character devoid of any dilemma, taint or whatsoever.

    All of the villains in WoW since Arthas are purely evil, with no explanation for their actions other than "madness" or "evil intentions for the world"

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by kharyll View Post
    Thrall's story has been the epitome of Mary Sue for a looong time.
    Prince Anduin is another one-dimensional character devoid of any dilemma, taint or whatsoever.

    All of the villains in WoW since Arthas are purely evil, with no explanation for their actions other than "madness" or "evil intentions for the world"
    Yeah sorry, no. Thrall's not a mary sue. 4.2 is a testament to that.

    Like I have said, you seem to just want to use the term to say you don't like the character or how he has progressed, but that's not the real meaning of the term. It symbolizes an inherently broken, perfect character. Thrall's not that. He's got flaws, he's got criticizers (who AREN'T villians, this is the key part)... he's pretty human (metaphorically speaking).
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-05-18 at 04:22 PM.

  20. #340
    Pit Lord Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I don't really care for one side or the other. Garrosh is just written too badly to despise or to have any emotions for and the Darkspear.. i love trolls but i despise the traitor Vol'jin.
    I guess i stick with Sunwalker Dezco, he seems to be a decent guy.
    Vol'jin...a traitor? The true traitor here is Garrosh. Vol'jin is just trying to put things on their right place.

    Yeah Dezco is cool but seriously, the guy just stay sat in Pandaria looking good. Someone must do the dirty work, a mess doesn't resolve for miracle just for itself.

    Clearly you doesn't have a precise idea of what is effectively going on. It's really amusing, time ago people that didn't really care about the lore in it's whole just ignored it and go on, now all jump on the "bad writing" wagon for looking smart.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-18 at 04:25 PM.

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