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  1. #1

    They say Paladins are the best tanks

    But why? Are they referring only to single target, or heroic mode raids? My DK is Frost/Blood and I've played a Warrior and a Druid as well and tanked them while leveling up.

    IMO, DKs are easily the most convenient tanking class around. Our AoE has no limits and we have a crapton of defensive cooldowns (which I often love to pop and proceed to pull an entire dungeon room without a healer present and live to tell the tale).

    So what is it? I haven't tanked on a Paladin since wrath.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by soulzek View Post
    But why? Are they referring only to single target, or heroic mode raids? My DK is Frost/Blood and I've played a Warrior and a Druid as well and tanked them while leveling up.

    IMO, DKs are easily the most convenient tanking class around. Our AoE has no limits and we have a crapton of defensive cooldowns (which I often love to pop and proceed to pull an entire dungeon room without a healer present and live to tell the tale).

    So what is it? I haven't tanked on a Paladin since wrath.
    We can bubble off the stacks on horridon, Iron Qon, Durumu and we can single tank Tortos, basically allowing your raid to add an extra dps

  3. #3
    They give off-healing, they have the best mitigation there is, they have really strong DPS. They can bubble off debuffs, Lay On Hands allies, Hand of Sacrifice the other tank, BoP the other tank/Players.

  4. #4
    I counter that argument with AMS tricks. DK has plenty of those as well. Did you know DKs can drop Explosive Slam stacks on Dark Animus?

  5. #5
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    More DpS, better gear scaling, useful raid cooldown, unique short term cooldowns usable on others, less spikey incoming damage, better threat generation, vastly superior add-tanking.

  6. #6
    -their active mitigation is pretty much a shield wall with really high uptime thanks to haste, which makes them almost immune to spike physical damage while still having their other cooldowns (not to mention that divine protection is comparable to AMS for reducing magic damage).

    -their attack power scaling (vengeance) is superior and with their haste stacking it gives them incredibly powerful sacred shield absorbs, self healing, and dps when tanking high-end content.

    -their group utility (not prot exclusive) in the form of devotion aura/hands is quite useful.

    That's pretty much it i guess.

  7. #7
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Paladins bring mitigation cds, A LOT of raid healing, really high dps & raid cds again Give VB a longer CD and make it raid wide, kind of like it was in DS.
    Last edited by Fnx-; 2013-05-15 at 06:47 PM.

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  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    If by "our AoE has no limits" you mean that dieseases can be spread to infinite targets, and isn't limited by the 20 target damage cap, then yes, our AoE has no limits, akin to druid AoE. However, in terms of AoE uptime, Paladins are top there- they can have 1 AoE effect up with 100% uptime, another AoE effect used every 4.5 seconds, and a third AoE effect (fairly weak) every 9 seconds. Compared to A) DnD with 33% uptime (it no longer has the bonus threat it had in Cata/Wrath), B) Blood boils once every 8 seconds, with a few free procs here and there, our ability to grab ALL the things AND preform our active mitigation is lacking- paladins have no such limits. (I.E only DKs can mess up thier AoE rotation and be down thier active mitigation, all other tanks, AoE is seperate from active mitgation resource.)

    In terms of cooldowns- yes. DKs DO have the most cooldowns. DKs ALSO have the highest stamina modifier, about 10% more stamina then all other tanks. However, DKs have the WORST passive damage reduction- 10% damage reduction compared to 15% for Paladins, and 25% for all other tanks. These means that with a 100k hit, we take 90k, paladins take 85k, and all other tanks take 75k. More health, but more damage taken as well.

    In terms of active mitigation, DK is the trickiest/second trickiest (Monk is the other coin of tricky mitigation) to use. All other tanks use active mitigation, and then reduce incoming damage for certain amount of time. For instance, on average, all other tanks would reduce that 500k damage to about 250k damage, without cooldowns. DKs would take the full damage to the face, and then heal it back. Now, the good news is that unlike ALL other tanks, DKs active mitigation allows them to both heal themselves for full damage taken with 3x DS, AND apply a whopping absorption shield for 2x damage taken. The bad news is that if the DK had less then 500k health, he would die in that time period without any heals.

    The main reason why paladins are top tanks atm is because thier active mitigation is superior to all other tanks for taking 1 major hit and reducing it to nothing. DK's are unable to do that simply because we have to take the damage first before our active mitigation works to full. Finally, Paladins have A) passive healing going out to the raid through the fight (20% of a paladins dps= paladins hps to raid), B) a damage absorption shield that scales with vengeance (100k sacred shield absorptions, yes please), C) very good self healing (Heal self from 1%-100% in one GCD anyone?), and D) far superior CDs compared to the DK (ability to nullify certain mechanic's of a fight that normally requires 2 tanks to deal with, ability that reduces DoT effects by 70%, 20% uptime, and reduces all damage by 10% to boot, 20% raid-wide damage reduction, AND the ability to cheat death without any outside help every 2 mins, which also doubles as a 20% damage reduction CD. Oh, yea, 40% magical damage reduction for 12 seconds every minute- sure, AMS is better for spike damage, and is up more often, but that 40% magical damage reduction with twice as much duration is much more helpful on a fair number of fights this tier)

    So yea. Superior active mitigation compared to all other tanks for this tier, superior raid CDs compared to all other tanks, and superior passive raid healing compared to all other tanks. The only thing that paladins LACK is a last stand CD.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
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    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    The main reason why paladins are top tanks atm is because thier active mitigation is superior to all other tanks for taking 1 major hit and reducing it to nothing. DK's are unable to do that simply because we have to take the damage first before our active mitigation works to full. Finally, Paladins have A) passive healing going out to the raid through the fight (20% of a paladins dps= paladins hps to raid), B) a damage absorption shield that scales with vengeance (100k sacred shield absorptions, yes please), C) very good self healing (Heal self from 1%-100% in one GCD anyone?), and D) far superior CDs compared to the DK (ability to nullify certain mechanic's of a fight that normally requires 2 tanks to deal with, ability that reduces DoT effects by 70%, 20% uptime, and reduces all damage by 10% to boot, 20% raid-wide damage reduction, AND the ability to cheat death without any outside help every 2 mins, which also doubles as a 20% damage reduction CD. Oh, yea, 40% magical damage reduction for 12 seconds every minute- sure, AMS is better for spike damage, and is up more often, but that 40% magical damage reduction with twice as much duration is much more helpful on a fair number of fights this tier)

    So yea. Superior active mitigation compared to all other tanks for this tier, superior raid CDs compared to all other tanks, and superior passive raid healing compared to all other tanks. The only thing that paladins LACK is a last stand CD.
    Actually monks are even better at mitigating those big hits than paladins. Monks also provide raid healing in the form of absorption shields, also provide themselves with excellent self healing, a short cooldown absorb shield scaled to vengeance, and a much more dynamic cooldown kit for surviving burst situations and reducing sustained damage. Monks also have raid CDs that can be used for the raid and/or other tank.

    The rest of the things people list that supposedly make paladins "the best tank" are actually things that just make paladins the best class to have at least one of in a raid in any spec. Any paladin, dps or healing, has the ability to nullify a lot of dual tank boss mechanics and has access to those incredible raid and single target cooldowns that are usable on others.


    Our paladin tank is gone this week. I'm sad he's gone not because he's a paladin tank but because he's paladin. We are trying to get a paladin healer alt into the raid for this week to fill in for the fights where we were using those paladin mechanics.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OrionAntares View Post
    Actually monks are even better at mitigating those big hits than paladins. Monks also provide raid healing in the form of absorption shields, also provide themselves with excellent self healing, a short cooldown absorb shield scaled to vengeance, and a much more dynamic cooldown kit for surviving burst situations and reducing sustained damage. Monks also have raid CDs that can be used for the raid and/or other tank.

    The rest of the things people list that supposedly make paladins "the best tank" are actually things that just make paladins the best class to have at least one of in a raid in any spec. Any paladin, dps or healing, has the ability to nullify a lot of dual tank boss mechanics and has access to those incredible raid and single target cooldowns that are usable on others.


    Our paladin tank is gone this week. I'm sad he's gone not because he's a paladin tank but because he's paladin. We are trying to get a paladin healer alt into the raid for this week to fill in for the fights where we were using those paladin mechanics.
    Woops, guess this is the monk section now guys, nothing to see here monks and paladins are equal and just fine.

    OT: Divine shield cant be placed on other targets and is superior to HoP, people that claim it is a "all paladins can do this" thing are deluding themselves unless they wanna have 2 non-prot pallies with clemency in their raid to have the same up time on stack wipes.
    Lights hammer for prot might as well be called "bring one less healer to stack fights", even if it is a bit long for an ability name.

    As a DK tank its rather soul crushing to see a equally skilled but lesser geared paladin take less damage AND put out more meaningful healing (screw you bloodworms).
    Vamp blood needs to be raid wide, bloodworms need a 50% healing reduction along with a button that lets you control their pops (or increase the healing range on them by 20 yds), and AMZ needs to be a proper raid CD to make it worth taking over purgatory or lichborne

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by soulzek View Post
    But why? Are they referring only to single target, or heroic mode raids? My DK is Frost/Blood and I've played a Warrior and a Druid as well and tanked them while leveling up.

    IMO, DKs are easily the most convenient tanking class around. Our AoE has no limits and we have a crapton of defensive cooldowns (which I often love to pop and proceed to pull an entire dungeon room without a healer present and live to tell the tale).

    So what is it? I haven't tanked on a Paladin since wrath.
    because they're talking about high end raiding, not random who gives a crap while leveling dungeons.

  12. #12
    One word, they need to be nerfed hard. No offense but I really think so. It's like the beginning of cata, there are only 2 kinds of tank: pally and non-pally. And things are even unfair to other tanks now. Pally one tank everything, top dps, top healing, and lol at others. It is just unfair. It's not like we didn't put effort. They just make pally so overpowered and what can I do about that.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Vamp blood needs to be raid wide, bloodworms need a 50% healing reduction along with a button that lets you control their pops (or increase the healing range on them by 20 yds), and AMZ needs to be a proper raid CD to make it worth taking over purgatory or lichborne
    Couldn't agree more.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AlisonPrime View Post
    We can bubble off the stacks on horridon, Iron Qon, Durumu and we can single tank Tortos, basically allowing your raid to add an extra dps
    Resetting stacks on those bosses can be done by any tank as long as you have 1 paladin in the raid (horridon might need a second pally)

    Tortos on the other hand shows the strength of pallies:
    Insane vengeance scaling especially for aoe.
    Still able to keep their defenses up while doing aoe damage.
    Enough aoe threat through passive healing to keep stuff away from healer.

    Now look at DKs:
    Awful vengeance scaling, high weapon dps scaling (ya it's so great that they buffed the weapon dmg from rune strike.... not)
    AOE severely limited by gcds and rune cost.
    DS just doesn't compare to ShoR when it comes to mitigating burst dmg. (reactive vs proactive mitigation...)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 09:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by matthias9742 View Post
    Vamp blood needs to be raid wide, bloodworms need a 50% healing reduction along with a button that lets you control their pops (or increase the healing range on them by 20 yds), and AMZ needs to be a proper raid CD to make it worth taking over purgatory or lichborne
    I just want my rune tap glyph back /:
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    I just want my rune tap glyph back /:
    I couldn't agree more with this. I miss it so much!

  16. #16
    blood worms explode for like 600-700k, but its sadly rng

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hafizah View Post
    blood worms explode for like 600-700k, but its sadly rng
    It is much less than that and besides it is split among all targets within a 10 yard aoe if it heals more than 6. However 10 yards is quite small, you'll most likely just end up healing yourself and possibly your offtank.


    Its also worth noting that for those not hit/expertise capping, our damage is far lower because all 4 other tanks are nearly required to.

    Using horridon as an example, our pally tank is capable of holding aggro on mobs as they jump down. It takes weapon strikes from our dk to pull off the paladin. Their self healing really shouldn't generate threat. Back in wotlk death strike used to and it was nerfed..... In addition, we don't have any ranged damage tools for getting attention of mobs from far away reliably. Sure you can use icy touch, at the cost of death strikes and sure you can death coil, at more expensive than rune strike but pallies can just avenger's shield them.

  18. #18
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5281&e=5826
    6,6m healing done in 9min is arround 12k hps. most healing done on melees and only 14% on me and our other tank. yes the healing is split, but this means just less overhealing.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hafizah View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5281&e=5826
    6,6m healing done in 9min is arround 12k hps. most healing done on melees and only 14% on me and our other tank. yes the healing is split, but this means just less overhealing.
    The number I like is the 91.5% overhealing done. So your bloodworms healing was really less than 1.2k eHPS. Pretty sure battle healer with its smart healing can top that without vengeance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hafizah View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5281&e=5826
    6,6m healing done in 9min is arround 12k hps. most healing done on melees and only 14% on me and our other tank. yes the healing is split, but this means just less overhealing.
    I find that log amusing because it indicates that bloodworms heal themselves....

    Want to see something nuts? http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=18917&e=19475

    That paladin out healed AND dps'd his entire raid. Whats worse? He has the lowest overhealing!!!!! ( Excluding the priest who died with 17% active time...)
    He healed himself for 56% of his healing so if you exclude those self heals, he healed for about 3/5ths of the lowest active healer. That is insane.

    That paladin also maintained 70% uptime on his active mitigation. That is MUCH more effective than anything we can do. THe biggest gap appears to be during the windstorm which is no suprise. He probably would have had higher uptime than that!
    Last edited by Nangz; 2013-05-16 at 05:38 AM.

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