Would you prefer Garrosh killed, exiled, imprisoned, or redeemed?

[TJ]

Imprisoned for ten thousand years... banished from my own homeland... and now you dare enter my realm?

Legendary sentence, we know what comes next :>

[Zulkhan]

Claiming Garrosh is like Doomhammer is like saying Turalyon and Arthas are alike. They were both human and both fought against the Horde using paladin magics. Similar. Yet, their reasons for doing so were pretty different and their attitudes were also very different.

Even their reason were similar (Turalyon and Arthas) but, as you said, had very different attitudes, reason for which Arthas became slave of his own emotions and hate in his quest for save his people, while Turalyon in the peak of his rage decided to spare Orgrim's life.

[Dreknar20]

If you simplify it to such a degree then of course it seems similar... but really those are the only two similarities which aren't even entirely similar. As I've mentioned (and you seemingly ignored) their reasons for going to war were different as well as their attitudes on waging war and using those tactics.

Because your reasons kinda seem one and the same to me

You say Doomhammer wants security while Garrosh wants domination. But how exactly is Doomhammer aiming to get that security? By dominating their enemies, the Alliance.
Likewise, Garrosh dominating and weakening the Alliance provides security to the Horde
Domination and security kinda go hand in hand

Plus its not like Garrosh has no interest in "security"
"Thrall did not understand that the Alliance would never leave them be. It would push at the edges—like the orcs' enemies in Garadar—until the Horde broke. The only counter was to fight, to drive the humans out first. The orcs' security came above all else. There would be no negotiation until the Alliance understood that. Garrosh would not stop. His people would never dwindle, not again. The Horde would never fall.'

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 06:09 PM ----------

he talks of the Alliance races as "whismical and egoistic" for justify his complete unwillingness to negotiate.

not only that there is just no chance in hell for Garrosh to achieve his ambitions through diplomacy

[JFrombaugh]

Killed, definitely. After all the atrocities he's committed (especially blowing up Theramore and nearly killing Anduin with the Divine Bell), not to mention his complete disregard for the lives of his people, he is gunning near the top of my "most hated video game characters" list right up there with Ghetsis, Porky Minch, and Jasper Batt Jr. If he gets redeemed it will make a lot of people, including myself, really angry at Blizzard because he will have become one of these, BIG TIME: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KarmaHoudini

[The Madgod]

Because your reasons kinda seem one and the same to me

You say Doomhammer wants security while Garrosh wants domination. But how exactly is Doomhammer aiming to get that security? By dominating their enemies, the Alliance.
Likewise, Garrosh dominating and weakening the Alliance provides security to the Horde
Domination and security kinda go hand in hand

Domination was a means to an end for Doomhammer. For Garrosh, it is a self-fulfilling end. All the difference in the world.

It's not the action that matters here. It's the intent and reasoning behind that action. Orgrim and Garrosh are very different in this.

Plus its not like Garrosh has no interest in "security"
"Thrall did not understand that the Alliance would never leave them be. It would push at the edges—like the orcs' enemies in Garadar—until the Horde broke. The only counter was to fight, to drive the humans out first. The orcs' security came above all else. There would be no negotiation until the Alliance understood that. Garrosh would not stop. His people would never dwindle, not again. The Horde would never fall.'

And yet, his attitude for such is significantly different from Orgrim's. He is forsaking allies instead of gaining them. He is against negotiation in any form, yet Orgrim made a deal with a human.

There's no real argument to say that they are very similar. When we look close enough we see two very different personalities and two very different viewpoints. They're two separate people placed into a couple broad parallels. Those are their only commonalities.

Not even beginning to go into how Orgrim was actually a tactician and didn't rely solely on brute force. They even wage their wars differently.

It's hard to define "extra benefits" the resources he would get when you have a numerous population like the orcish one living in Durotar. He talks all the time of dominion because is the only way in which he conceive the "gathering" of resources and new lands, he talks of the Alliance races as "whismical and egoistic" for justify his complete unwillingness to negotiate. In his mind, the orcs must just take what they need to, not "bow down" their heads to the Alliance with peace agreements, discussions and so on. And this because Garrosh is addicted to his own pride.

When he says he wants the entire continent, he's not talking about resources. He's talking Horde dominance. That's why it's an extra benefit rather than the primary goal.

[Duito]

I don't want him to die...I want to LOSE the siege! I want Vol'jin to die...Thrall to be drained of all his powers, so his very essence can give life to the monster creations I hope Garrosh creates!

I want Saurfang to be corrupted and turn on Thrall and the same with Bain ( Not corrupted, just weak and foolish)! Then I want Rexxar to come in, break us out of imprisonment and why we are retreating I want Garrosh to try to take us down on his own, Rexxar will shoot a poison arrow into Garrosh's neck and he will scamper away!

Dying

[Dreknar20]

Not even beginning to go into how Orgrim was actually a tactician and didn't rely solely on brute force. They even wage their wars differently.

Its not like Garrosh dooes either. Theramore had a great deal of cunning to it. Likewise during the Shattering, it was shown Garrosh had a backup plan in case Warsong Hold fell, something not evident in "typical" Orcs

[The Madgod]

Its not like Garrosh dooes either. Theramore had a great deal of cunning to it. Likewise during the Shattering, it was shown Garrosh had a backup plan in case Warsong Hold fell, something not evident in "typical" Orcs

And he scoffed at a superior soldier and general's advice on maintaining proper shipping routes and strategy back in the Northrend campaign, insisting that all the Horde needed for victory was its fighting spirit.

All that means is that he has learned something since then, while managing to fail at many other aspects of war, such as picking competent generals for an important offensive.

Again, there's not much they have in common other than they fought the Alliance and they used some morally questionable tactics, two very broad topics which when examined closer show that even in those aspects the two are different.

[Lumineus]

And yet, his attitude for such is significantly different from Orgrim's. He is forsaking allies instead of gaining them.

In fairness, he already had allies, Doomhammer did not. Yet Doomhammer used and discarded the Mok'Nathal and Amani just as readily as Garrosh does to the Forsaken, Sindorei, and Darkspear. In this their attitudes are remarkably similar. Horde = Orcs, everyone else is cannon fodder.

[iggie]

Killed and Org destroyed, completely.

[The Madgod]

In fairness, he already had allies, Doomhammer did not. Yet Doomhammer used and discarded the Mok'Nathal and Amani just as readily as Garrosh does to the Forsaken, Sindorei, and Darkspear. In this their attitudes are remarkably similar. Horde = Orcs, everyone else is cannon fodder.

That's not true. Orgrim didn't "discard" them in the same way Garrosh would have. They broke their ties out of different goals, not out of a sense of Orc superiority. They had a mutual respect for one another. Garrosh, if he respects someone that isn't an orc, it's begrudgingly. Not so for Doomhammer.

As well there were no significant numbers of Mok'Nathal in the Second War. There were Ogres, but they were mainly under the command of Gul'Dan's Twilight's Hammer and they left not because they were abandoned by Orgrim but because Gul'dan left.

[Obsolus]

I want to be able to KILL the endboss for once. JUST THIS ONCE!!

Onyxia
C'thun
Kel'thuzad
Illidan
Yogg Saron
Lich King
Ragnaros
Deathwing
Sha of Fear
Thunderking...

Loads others

[Deleted]

How I want to see MoP wrap up:

Garrosh at 10% hp. Suddenly huge planet disturbs the party, everyone gasps. Booming voice holds an evil speech. Is actually Avatar of Sargeras on his big ass ship-planet. A ray of light holds Garrosh midair. We dps him down as he dramaticly waves his hands around in slow-mo while he spins and yells about how it's not over. At 1 hp left booming voice says "LOL NOPE" and abducts Garrosh while he starts moo-ing. SUDDENLY EXPLOSIONS AND LIGHTS AND SPARKS AND GAMON APPEARS OUT OF FUCKING NOWHERE AND YELLS: PREQUEL!1!!!!!!1111!!1 The planet remains on the skies of Azeroth the whole next expansion. That gnome leader dude (lord'thermar I think) invents some shit and we get a way to go on that planet. The planet is now the new continent. Then we go on the forums and complain about how it will suck. Then we will go on the forums and say about how good MoP was. The end.

EDIT: oh I voted "other"

[Arkamedis]

Beheaded and staked outside of Orgrimmars gates, only fitting.

[Reminisce]

Killed, then Sylvanas resurrects him as her new pet.

[Lumineus]

Onyxia
C'thun
Kel'thuzad
Illidan
Yogg Saron
Lich King
Ragnaros
Deathwing
Sha of Fear
Thunderking...

Loads others

END boss. The final boss always gets retconned, revived, escapes, or otherwise raiders are only also-rans who help kill-stealing NPCs on their quest for vengeance.

Kel'thuzad - Still never destroyed his phylactery, even @ lv70
C'Thun (since Kel'thuzad was redacted) - actually killed by Med'an in the comics
Kil'jaeden - lolnope! Back through the portal he goes. And even if you don't count him, Akama and Maiev took the credit for Illidan.
Lich King - KS'd by Tirion and Shade of Terenas
Deathwing - KS'd by Thrall and Alexstrasza

So yeah, even if Garrosh dies, don't expect the raiders to be the ones who kill him. Kill credit will probably go to Vol'jin or Varian depending on which faction is raiding, and Blizzard will decide which version is canon later (likely Varian, since it seems Alliance characters are always present at the defeat of the end boss).

[Zulkhan]

When he says he wants the entire continent, he's not talking about resources. He's talking Horde dominance. That's why it's an extra benefit rather than the primary goal.

Not excatly. Of course he wants the continent, because he wants new lands for the orcs, not just resources. The situation will never change if the orcs reamin in Durotar, for him, the orcs need a new and rich land. In the end conquering Kalimdor doesn't mean nothing else than kicking the night elves by the continent, as they hold the most beautiful and blooming lands, and the humans of Theramore, in which he almost succeed, because they were the allies and supporters of them, and so an obstacle. And this is the whole reason for which, when Nazgrim said to him of Pandaria, he exploded in anger at the possibility that the Alliance could have reached it first, ready to opposing him again.

[Soulwind]

A trial would be appropiate for this new Thrall/Vol'jin Horde, even if they ended up killing him. But the game asks for a final boss where the players are needed. Not killing Garrosh (or fighting him until another character kills him) leaves an empty feeling to the raid.

Still, he IS a different kind of villain. He is not super-powerful or a threat to the world. He is dangerous because he uses dangerous artifacts/powers that he doesn't fully understand. But even if the final boss doesn't HAVE to be Garrosh directly, and even if it isn't, his actions deserve punishment. Also, while Blizzard usually leaves several loose ends, they also like to close the main expansion stories by killing the bad guy.

Illidan is dead, Kil'jaeden is alive. Arthas is dead, the Lich King is alive. Deathwing is dead, N'zoth is alive.

Garrosh can die. Garrosh should die. It fits for Garrosh to die. The game needs Garrosh to die, even if the story doesn't.

[Deleted]

Doomhammer slaughtered Lothar by ambushing him with superior numbers, while Lothar was on a diplomatic mission, guess you never played that scenario. That was not a fight, but an execution. Today you see a big Statue of Lothar, who is the guy to honor as he fought to the death in that doomhamer ambush, in the burning steppes. Didn't see much Statues of Doomhammer, maybe point me to one.

Retconned, Lothar went down on a one-on-one battle with Doomhammer.

WC2 maps weren't the best storytelling model. Heck, we had to assault the Blackrock Mountain by sea, from south, on the game.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 08:13 PM ----------

Being the Overlord that led the Warsong Offesnive hardly counts as doing nothing

Tell me what he done to gain the title of Overlord and what he done during his time as Overlord. And no, what the others did from him doesn't count.

They both waged wars of conquest against the Alliance and they both used ruthless tactics, seems similar to me

That's an absolute oversimplistic view of what happen.

[The Madgod]

Not excatly. Of course he wants the continent, because he wants new lands for the orcs, not just resources. The situation will never change if the orcs reamin in Durotar, for him, the orcs need a new and rich land. In the end conquering Kalimdor doesn't mean nothing else than kicking the night elves by the continent, as they hold the most beautiful and blooming lands, and the humans of Theramore, in which he almost succeed, because they were the allies and supporters of them, and so an obstacle. And this is the whole reason for which, when Nazgrim said to him of Pandaria, he exploded in anger at the possibility that the Alliance could have reached it first, ready to opposing him again.

"For I believe in my heart that it is not our fate to bow and scrape and sue for peace before the Alliance. It is
our right to dominate and control this land of Kalimdor. It is ours, and we will claim it as such!”

"“You respond to this as if the conquest of Theramore were the goal. I tell you now, it is only the
beginning! I do not speak solely of destroying the human foothold in Kalimdor. I speak also, and even more
vigorously, of the night elves. Let them flee to the Eastern Kingdoms as we crush their cities and take their
resources!”

"The night elves have lived here long enough. Let them now linger only as a bad
memory. It is the Horde’s hour to reign on this continent, and reign we shall!"

“The night elves will be gone; the Alliance will be afraid to attack; and Kalimdor will belong to the
Horde. Those will be the consequences, elder.”

These are all from page 19-20 of Tides of War. While it's certainly true that it's not purely for domination... it's rather obvious that's the primary goal. All of his talk has one thing in common: Horde dominance. It's not just about resources or land, it's about proving that the Horde is superior.