Poll: What would you do with Garrosh

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

Page 21 of 24 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
... LastLast
  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Yet the whole basis for his rage against the Alliance is because he believes them a serious threat to the Horde and on obstacle to the heights and power the Horde deserves.

    If those were no longer true in his mind why would he hate them then?
    That's not true. He hates them because they opposed the orcish race. That they continue to do so is simply fuel for the fire but that isn't the source. The source is the fact that they did it at all.

    The Alliance weren't really opposing them in Wrath, nor were they that serious of a threat, relatively. They were both there to deal with a greater threat. Garrosh chose to ignore that and hate them regardless. You're trying to make him seem rational but it's irrational to try and focus on a threat which isn't really that much of a threat compared to this thing that is capable of destroying BOTH you and the other guys. If Garrosh's rage was really based on something being a threat then why didn't he focus more on the real threat, the Scourge?

  2. #402
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,667
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The Alliance weren't really opposing them in Wrath, nor were they that serious of a threat, relatively.
    The Alliance were a threat none the less by them simply being the rival super-power.
    Humans and dwarves have been encroaching on Horde lands since before Wrath, something he learned about as soon he came To Azeroth

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    . They were both there to deal with a greater threat. Garrosh chose to ignore that and hate them regardless. You're trying to make him seem rational but it's irrational to try and focus on a threat which isn't really that much of a threat compared to this thing that is capable of destroying BOTH you and the other guys.
    Well what can you say, Old hatrds die hard. That to me seems like a common theme across the Warcraft Saga
    And Garrosh isnt the only person to not completely forget about the opposing faction just because Arthas showed his face

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    If Garrosh's rage was really based on something being a threat then why didn't he focus more on the real threat, the Scourge?
    its not like he totally ignored the Scourge to instead go after the Alliance
    Last edited by Dreknar20; 2013-05-20 at 08:15 PM.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  3. #403
    Exiled. Because every other boss has only ever been redeemed/killed (or both, <3 Arthas).

  4. #404
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,667
    Quote Originally Posted by soulzek View Post
    (or both, <3 Arthas).
    was Arthas really "redeemed"? He kinda loses the Lich King powers and basically says "im totally fucked"
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  5. #405
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    My views and opinion is based on the games and i remember someone at blizz told once those were canon and not the books. But i have no time or pleasure to dig that up now.
    Until you can back up your claim, everything you say about this is wrong.
    Originally Posted by Brian Kindregan
    When something goes out the door at Blizzard—in a game, a novel, a manga, or anything other than mods or the table-top RPG—it's canon.
    Blizzard promotes and posts excerpts from the novels on their site.

    They even made the Tides of War novel the real canon, overriding the in-game scenario (Alliance side).
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-05-20 at 10:07 PM.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Well what can you say, Old hatrds die hard. That to me seems like a common theme across the Warcraft Saga
    And Garrosh isnt the only person to not completely forget about the opposing faction just because Arthas showed his face
    That's absolutely true, that old hatreds die hard, and that's exactly my point. Combine that with the fact that Garrosh is obviously emotionally-driven, do you honestly believe he wouldn't press an attack if Varian said that the Alliance would leave him alone and that they honestly desire peace and wouldn't attack? He can't take valid criticism without threatening to silence his critics, how can you expect that he would be emotionally mature enough to let his hatred and his desire to kill Alliance die off if they're no longer a threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    The Alliance were a threat none the less by them simply being the rival super-power.
    Humans and dwarves have been encroaching on Horde lands since before Wrath, something he learned about as soon he came To Azeroth
    its not like he totally ignored the Scourge to instead go after the Alliance
    No but anyone with half a brain would realize that the Scourge is the primary threat on Northrend. Trying to attack the people who are attacking your common enemy just means that you're helping that common enemy. The fact that Garrosh goes after the lesser of two evils is extremely telling that he doesn't hate the Alliance because it's a threat. He hates the Alliance because they're the Alliance and was willing to weaken the joint war effort against the Lich King - weaken the Horde's position in the war against the Lich King - to satiate that hate.

    If he was really anti-Alliance because they were a threat then he should have been more anti-Scourge since they were the bigger threat and he should have focused on them before the Alliance.

  7. #407
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    5,528
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    So sad. You may have this "nananana" crap feeling about me just because i haven't discussed with you, but with the other guy, and i said that i'm done with this discussion. I'm not denying facts (that don't exist, no matter how hard you try to belive so) but i simply decided to stop arguing, because i made enough of it with essentialy no results at all. I apoligize with you for this, but i simply tired of reasoning again with you after i did for so much time with madgod and, as i said, with no results at all.
    I don't mean to offend you or anything but yet again you said these facts doesn't exist which again we linked you quotes from the novel and ingame about Garrosh willing to takeover Stormwind and Eastern Kingdom if he has the chance for it which prove that his current attitude is not the kinda like if the Alliance mind their own business forever Garrosh will not touch them nope he is not like that and I understand your point but we are just pointing out that you are wrong in this case anyway thanks for reading.

  8. #408
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Having a beer with dad'hardt
    Posts
    26,315
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post

    Blizzard promotes and posts excerpts from the novels on their site.

    They even made the Tides of War novel the real canon, overriding the in-game scenario (Alliance side).
    Thats because of something the playerbase can't seem to accept. They can't take the idea that the things there made up character avatar does, isn't in any way integral to the real story happening in wow, and they really have nothing to do with the events happening in the game.

    Tides of war, the novel, shows exactly what happens in the story, none of this 'behind the scenes secret mission' bullshit, thats just some made up plothole for the players ingame to feel like there part of the ride, kind of like seeing a child riding on disney land ride and believing he's part of a disney movie like Aladdin or beauty and the beast. But they are not part of anything.

    Also, there was none of this crap about the super secret staff the blue dragonflight gave to a random adventurer who witnessed kelec becoming the blue aspect. Twilight of the aspects shows it was Thrall who witnessed it, an actual lore character, not some f**king gnome called 'bubblepants' or 'Tinklewinkle'
    #boycottchina

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    I don't mean to offend you or anything but yet again you said these facts doesn't exist which again we linked you quotes from the novel and ingame about Garrosh willing to takeover Stormwind and Eastern Kingdom if he has the chance for it which prove that his current attitude is not the kinda like if the Alliance mind their own business forever Garrosh will not touch them nope he is not like that and I understand your point but we are just pointing out that you are wrong in this case anyway thanks for reading.
    Don't even need the novels for Stormwind's case. In Cata the whole setup for Vashj'ir was that Garrosh was trying to take the island off Stormwind's coast so they could invade Stormwind directly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 07:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    I thought you wanted to leave this discussion?

    Btw, personal attacks are against the rules here. I do not accept it, cause there is no proof and evidence other than a novel that backs up that Doomhammer is a honorable warchief and not exactly like Garrosh and Grom!
    My views and opinion is based on the games and i remember someone at blizz told once those were canon and not the books. But i have no time or pleasure to dig that up now.

    Interesting though, that guys of your kind, can only bring up flame and all the same line of my reply here, while not answering directly to my thoughts on this topic.

    Thats really not worth my time so i am out.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:44 PM ----------



    i hope this, too. As i can simply see no replacement for Garrosh worthy of the title "Warchief". The other Horde Leaders like Bane and Voljin are more "Peacechiefs". But it seems the burning legion will return, thus, alliance and horde will work together again - never liked that and never will.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 04:59 PM ----------



    At least this is a good reply, even though i disagree with you. Can't imagine Lothar beeing killed by Doomhammer in a fair duell, cause i really think Lothar was the more powerful Character and just needed to be ambushed to be defeated.
    Lets remember how Grom Hellscream dealt with Cenarius, Grom was strong and powerful as Doomhammer but he could not beat a legendary demi God on his own.
    I think the ambush, the original story before it was retconned via a novel, fits the horde in their desperate situation just more, they were about to lose the war against the alliance. You don't do honor duels in such a situation. Also Doomhammer needed Lothar dead to rout the alliance armies, but it resulted in a more brave alliance charging the hordes armies to their ultimate defeat at the Black Portal.

    You support the book, i support the game and my thoughts on the story. And i am really not sure if the story is in good hands right now, if old lore gets retconned for no reasion other than making the conflict horde vs alliance to simply disappear. After Garrosh, there is really only Sylvanas that would want to wage a worldwide war.(possibly).
    Lothar's awesome and all, but what exactly about him makes you think he couldn't be defeated in single combat? The reason they sought eachother out, was an attempt to cut the head off the enemy so to speak. Doomhammer though that by defeating Lothar in single combat, he could shatter the spirits of the alliance, though it backfired. Even so, you could make the arguement Lothar won because he had an inferior weapon, with the Doomhammer breaking through his sword and smashing his skull, but I know nothing about Lothar that suggests that Doomhammer wouldn't fight him on equal grounds.

    Warcraft 2 was extremely limited in its storytelling, both from the game's limitations and the fact the story was pretty much 'humans good orcs bad' back in those days. The novels paint a much broader and detailed picture of things, from showing Deathwing's plans and involvement (he was just kind of there in the game), to developing characters like Turalyon and Khadgar in a way the now outdated RTS system couldn't.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post

    Blizzard promotes and posts excerpts from the novels on their site.

    They even made the Tides of War novel the real canon, overriding the in-game scenario (Alliance side).
    yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

    So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

    A bad retcon is bad.

    It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
    I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
    That one got lost with this retcon.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-05-21 at 12:38 AM.

  11. #411
    I am Murloc! Velshin's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    5,528
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

    So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

    A bad retcon is bad.

    It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
    I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
    That one got lost with this retcon.

    Yes but keep in mind that even though Doomhammer defeated Lothar 1 vs 1 in the novel that doesn't mean he did it so easily in fact he was way so weakned and tired after his fight with Lothar which one of the reason that Turalyon overpowered him easily with of course the enraged Alliance soldiers.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post

    Tides of war, the novel, shows exactly what happens in the story, none of this 'behind the scenes secret mission' bullshit, thats just some made up plothole for the players ingame to feel like there part of the ride, kind of like seeing a child riding on disney land ride and believing he's part of a disney movie like Aladdin or beauty and the beast. But they are not part of anything.

    Also, there was none of this crap about the super secret staff the blue dragonflight gave to a random adventurer who witnessed kelec becoming the blue aspect. Twilight of the aspects shows it was Thrall who witnessed it, an actual lore character, not some f**king gnome called 'bubblepants' or 'Tinklewinkle'
    aha ok, this all doesn't make the slightes of a sense, uh.

    Secret mission.....i was refering to the events of a major battle at blackrock spire, that was very critical to the story and how the alliance could overcome the horde. Actually if you have played this important scenario you were quite shocked seeing lothar killed by ambushing and outnumbering orc armies. That was a slaughter and execution. In addition, it was important to motivate the alliance troops and its leading general Turalyon to beat the horde and doomhammer once and for all.

    In fact i think the chances are not that low, if doomhamer had a fair duel with lothar and beats him, the horde would get the morale boost and win that battle and maybe even the 2nd war in the long run.

    But please continue to defend bad retcons made up by a lousy novel.

  13. #413
    Deleted
    I want him to be the Warchief!

  14. #414
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    yeah, but it is bad. Because, if Doomhammer and Lothar just had a fair duel and Lothar lost it honorably, the alliance armies led by Turalyon wouldn't be enraged and that brave to beat the horde afterwards. A mean ambush though, could do the trick.

    So i wonder what the purpose of this retcon should be? Doomhammer is not from the frostwolf clan, but blackrock clan, he does not need to be extra honorable. He isn't Durotan, Thralls father. With this retcon, it makes one wonder why those factions even were at war?

    A bad retcon is bad.

    It destroyed the character of Doomhammer as well as the logic of some of the battlefield scenarios, and reasions how the alliance could defeat the horde.
    I mean you can have superior numbers, but you need to motivate your men!
    That one got lost with this retcon.
    If Blizzard wants to screw with their lore, that's their prerogative. It's their intellectual property. They decide what counts, whether we like it or not.

    In this specific case, the point of the retcon was to add depth to the orcs. Previously, the orcs didn't really have a story. They were just green rage monsters rampaging across the landscape. After the retcon, they're noble savages with a code of honor which opened up their story for development in WC3 and WoW.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-05-21 at 12:59 AM.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    Yes but keep in mind that even though Doomhammer defeated Lothar 1 vs 1 in the novel that doesn't mean he did it so easily in fact he was way so weakned and tired after his fight with Lothar which one of the reason that Turalyon overpowered him easily with of course the enraged Alliance soldiers.
    yeah, but beating someone 1on1 isn't that shocking as mean ambush to take someone out before the actual battle starts. The original story was just better. And the alliance soldiers and Turalyon had a better reasion to get enraged.

  16. #416
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    18,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    yeah, but beating someone 1on1 isn't that shocking as mean ambush to take someone out before the actual battle starts. The original story was just better. And the alliance soldiers and Turalyon had a better reasion to get enraged.
    Even as a fair 1v1, the humans think so little of orcs at that point that they could have just assumed Doomhammer cheated.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    If Blizzard want's to screw with their lore, that's their prerogative. It's their intellectual property. They decide what counts, whether we like it or not.

    In this specific case, the point of the retcon was to add depth to the orcs. Previously, the orcs didn't really have a story. They were just green rage monsters rampaging across the landscape. After the retcon, they're noble savages with a code of honor which opens up their story for development in WC3 and WoW.
    sure thats fair to say, i respect that, especially in the light of wc3, where grom healscream and thrall tried to tame kalimdor for the new horde.
    However, there is nothing wrong with orgrim doomhammer beeing a brutal warchief, like grom and garrosh. They have personality, too, and give enough reasions to battle them. Thrall and co are to peaceful and careful for this.
    I like to compare doomhammer to king vortiger of the grail saga, he was rude, brutal but an effective leader and soldier, after him came arthur who was more friendly and wiser.
    Not all orcs need to have a code of honor, we allready got the frostwolf clan, and not all orcs need to be green raged monsters similar to the hellscream clan. I like diversity in the past, present and future of a story and their characters. And intellectual property or not i can discuss the story and point to retcons that do no good for it.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-05-21 at 01:02 AM.

  18. #418
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Having a beer with dad'hardt
    Posts
    26,315
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    But please continue to defend bad retcons made up by a lousy novel.
    And this ladies and gents is the generic response from posters who can't be bothered to read/can't read/can't afford the books to read, and so passes it off as obscure fiction, even when the developers state its not just canon, its how the lore actually happens.

    but keep telling yourself otherwise. No, please do.
    #boycottchina

  19. #419
    Force him to operate the pedals on the Northrend blimps for the rest of his life.

    That poor goblin chick...
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  20. #420
    Leading the Horde through the Dark Portal after defeating the draenei, Blackhand conducted the entire war effort against the Kingdom of Stormwind in what became known as the First War. Though Stormwind eventually fell, Blackhand was left vulnerable when Gul'dan fell into a coma after attempting to steal information pertaining to the Tomb of Sargeras from the mind of Medivh. Seizing the opportunity provided by the powerful warlock's incapacitation, Blackhand's second-in-command, Orgrim Doomhammer — later known as the Backstabber for the deed he was about to commit — decided to seize power from the puppet Warchief, hoping he could lead his wayward people from the path they had taken. Leading loyalist troops in a surprise attack, Doomhammer defeated Blackhand and cut his head from his shoulders, becoming both Warchief and Chieftain of the Blackrock.
    Source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer

    Look, he did it once and he continued with lothar, exactly as it has happened in the games. Stop the bad novel retcon defense, finally. No one needs another retconned Thrall or Durotan.

    How much proof do you need to be convinced that Doomhammer was a strong, smart and wayward warchief of the horde? The term honor just doesn't fit.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-05-21 at 01:49 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •