1. #1

    Getting back into raiding, thinking about rogue.

    I'm getting back into wow after a long hiatus and I'm thinking about playing rogue. I'm most interested in endgame raiding, what's hardmode raiding like for a rogue lately, are there any glaring holes with either mechanics or performance?

  2. #2
    As of right now, Rogues are really among the A-game classes you want in raids.
    Among the best dps on almost all fights, survivability beyond anyone else and now they even got a raid-CD(Although not superpowerful it's still useful)

    As for mechanics/performance, if I should break it down easily: Assassination Rogues will be your best bet if you haven't played for a while.
    Easy to play, can pull pretty good numbers without running around in full BiS gear and fairly forgiving on fights you don't know the mechanics of and have to pay attention to not die.
    Combat can also pull pretty good numbers, but it is insanely dependant on gear and playing it to it's fullest, if you want a challenge, Combat will be the one for you, but it will be pointless to try and match Assassination's numbers before you're running pretty awesome gear.
    Sub....just no :P

    Edit: Grammar xD

  3. #3
    Cool, I'd probably be playing assassination as I tend to just run with the highest performing spec.

    Also, is tricks swapping still a thing? I remember it was when I stopped, but I didn't see it in the guides I've looked at.

  4. #4
    High Overlord titcch's Avatar
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    Swapping tricks is well worth doing if you have double rogues in your team of course, the tradeoff from dropping the glyph is well worth it.

    Assassination is the easiest spec to play in-game currently and it seems you've already decided to go that route which is understandable but if you can play Combat to it's highest potential then you'll also be able to pull as high numbers that Assassination can do (You'd need the t15 4-set though as the spec is currently modeled around this).
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by titcch View Post
    Swapping tricks is well worth doing if you have double rogues in your team of course, the tradeoff from dropping the glyph is well worth it.
    Swapping tricks is highly inferior to tricks'ing whoever your highest DPS is (if you/the other rogue aren't the top at that point in time). Threat shouldn't be an issue anywhere, and there are plenty of times when "the tank" is the highest DPS, making them the best tricks target as well.

    There are no really glaring holes in our ability to perform, no. Rogues really are in a good place right now. On the assassination vs. combat: they're both simple in style, but combat will push you to a .5s GCD, so if you lag, have arthritis, or have a reason to fear arthritis, avoid combat. If you're in it for the endgame, learn both well, because you never know what next tier will bring, and being prepared always helps the most regardless.

    For guides on how to play rogues in PvE in current content and tips and tricks, try seeing the GUIDES! sticky up above.

  6. #6
    The Patient Lunareste's Avatar
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    Combat is stronger than Assassination if you have the correct gear and can ABSOLUTELY MAXIMIZE it. It's a GCD-locked, complex rotation that involves stacking CDs, Anticipation points at the correct time to maximize your Deep Insight buff, and Rupture weaving at the correct timings/Insight levels with very little room for error.

    If you cannot do those things, stick with Assassination. Energy + Anticipation pooling Assassination is slightly lower than Combat at the absolute top tier of players, but for everyone else should be superior. The rotation is also a lot more interesting than a lot of people give it credit for if you're playing it correctly by Energy/Anticipation pooling, but unfortunately most of the recent rerolls know absolutely nothing about playing Assassination correctly, so you'll have to do some research into the right way to play it.

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunareste View Post

    If you cannot do those things, stick with Assassination.
    Its less "can't do it" because of skill, more because the actual fight mechanics this tier won't allow you to maximise your combat spec play. Every second you are off target, running around or switching targets Assa gains ground against combat.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Its less "can't do it" because of skill, more because the actual fight mechanics this tier won't allow you to maximise your combat spec play. Every second you are off target, running around or switching targets Assa gains ground against combat.
    Bluegirl summed it up perfectly, Combat is the kind of spec you have to watch and keep track of every single thing to play at the top of the game, and this leaves very little room for error if you're trying to do the highest dps possible.
    Due to having to watch so much, most players gets overwhelmed and tunnel on their stuff so they fail on mechanics, I know how brutal Combat can be on most fights while as I said earlier, Assassination is alot more forgiving if you waste a second or two doing something else like dodging stuff

    Combat is stronger than Assassination if you have the correct gear and can ABSOLUTELY MAXIMIZE it. It's a GCD-locked, complex rotation that involves stacking CDs, Anticipation points at the correct time to maximize your Deep Insight buff, and Rupture weaving at the correct timings/Insight levels with very little room for error.
    Lunareste sums it up perfectly, and as you get into the more hectic fights on HC since that's what you are aiming for you often have to pay alot of attention to mechanics and less to your buffs and so on.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by zerynax View Post
    Due to having to watch so much, most players gets overwhelmed and tunnel on their stuff so they fail on mechanics, I know how brutal Combat can be on most fights while as I said earlier, Assassination is alot more forgiving if you waste a second or two doing something else like dodging stuff
    While true, I think you're misunderstanding at least part of the post you're quoting. It's not just a matter of your ability to stay alive and execute GCDs on time - if you're pushed off target, or better off multidotting, or there's fire under the boss's center, "play better" won't help you. You can't make use of energy when you're out of melee, you can't KS when death is under the boss (or it's about to cleave), and you don't have superior execute or multi-dotting ability. Combat being ahead relies not only on gear and player quality, but also on the encounter being patchwerk-style or in a manner that strongly supports Flurry.

    If you're pushing for the top, it takes some special conditions for combat to be ahead - it just won't be, if you're looking at the zone as a whole.

  10. #10
    Heh, I might've worded myself a bit bad, I typed it down in-between raidbreaks.

    I was trying to get to what you were saying about Combat being incredibly fight-dependant to do well, many bosses are horrible for Combat, Jin'Rokh during Storm, Horridon with Swipe, Council with shit on the ground, Tortos getting stuck behind rockfall, Cinders on Magaera, puddles on Ji'Kun, maze on Durumu and on and on.

    So yeah, I'd say at least 60% of the fights screws Combat over a bit being unable to use KS off CD or at all, and as you said Mugajak, Combat pretty literally does 0 dps while moving without a target in melee.

    I'm somewhat tired right now so might be some weird stuff in this post, dunno, I'll leave it to you to proofread it and correct me in places

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    Stay away from Combat. Do not listen to these people who will try to lull you into it by acting like the spec is some benevolent being that only the "few" pious men can master it. That is how people reel you in to play Combat. Simply put, Combat is horribly designed. At high levels with the 4pc, it's literally based around how much haste and how much Sinister Strikes/Revealing Strikes you can fit in without losing your hand. There is no room for rest or recovery. My left hand wrist is completely messed up from mashing Sinister Strike way too many times. Oh and if you have a low end PC or high latency, too bad you lose. Combat is literally the only spec in the game where you lose a substantial amount of damage from latency or fps.

    Playing Combat is similar to some Demon strapping you to a chair and forcing you to play Piano while dangling from a shark tank. Each missed stroke pulls you closer and closer to the tank and into the belly of the shark. There's absolutely no fun about playing this spec. Oh sure they'll always be people who will pretend that they enjoy it. Well guess what, they're liars. Nobody likes Combat, not even the people who design the Rogue class likes Combat.

    Play Assassination. Don't let fools who play Combat bully you because you decide to play a respectable, simple, enjoyable spec that is viable on EVERY encounter. Assassination is also very relaxing, its one of the few specs where you're not always mashing buttons on every Global, a spec where you can actually have time to rest every now and then. It's also very friendly to lesser geared players. Its a great spec for the Beginner Rogue, Seasoned Rogue and Veteran Rogue.

    Combat is reserved for people who are insane enough to put themselves through the kind of abuse that it delivers. It's also for people who want to be special and pin a medal on themselves that states "I'm special because I play an unrewarding insane spec that nobody plays." Some people may play it because they foolishly think it makes them a better player. It doesn't. It makes you more jaded and cynical over time until you realize that everything you've done is a waste of time.

    My advice would be to pretend as if the spec doesn't exist. Don't level with it, don't pvp with it, don't do scenarios with it, don't do dungeons with it, don't raid with it at low tiers and high alike. If you somehow decide to play it despite my warnings, please for the love of god, bind Sinister Strike to a mouse button. Do not be stupid and bind it to your keyboard like I did.

    Good luck.
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  12. #12
    ^ Wtf did I just read.

    Otherwise, rogue is a very fun class to raid with. A handful of tricks, many utilities and globally it is very comfortable to play it.

  13. #13
    Yeah, tricks whoever will get the highest DPS benefit in the fight. There hasn't been a reason to tricks another Rogue (other than an agreement between both of you to help each other pad the meters :P) for a very long time. If you're the highest DPS then don't tricks at all since you can no longer remove the energy cost. But still tricks a few seconds before the pull as you can regen the energy in that time.

    Rogues are pretty simple in raids, if you like Rogues you'll like raiding on them. Now that BF has been nerfed you can pretty much play Assass on most fights. I think being pure melee can get boring after a while, but that's a personal thing.
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  14. #14
    In response to OP:

    - Rogues are high in dps at the moment. On some fights, the highest. However, they can compete on most fights (except perhaps fights like Council, and Dark Animus, which favour dot classes).
    - They have minimal ramp up, good burst where needed and good sustained damage.
    - Rogues have exceptional survivability. Feint (with talent) is a 30% shield wall with no cooldown and reduces aoe by 65%; Cloak is on a 1 min cd; Evasion strong on JiKun. I am bottom on damage taken on most fights.
    - They have reasonable raid utility: slows, stuns, interrupts, silences, they can self dispel, they are very strong on Jinrohk for avoiding debuff, Horridon for add control, Tortos for slowing adds (with kiting strat), Megaera with Smoke Bomb, Jikun for soaking pools, I am boring myself going through every fight.
    - Their mobility is not the best but it is better than some other melee classes (e.g. DKs, Enh shamans). In PvE Shadowstep and Sprint are more than enough.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    Stay away from Combat. Do not listen to these people who will try to lull you into it by acting like the spec is some benevolent being that only the "few" pious men can master it. That is how people reel you in to play Combat. Simply put, Combat is horribly designed. At high levels with the 4pc, it's literally based around how much haste and how much Sinister Strikes/Revealing Strikes you can fit in without losing your hand. There is no room for rest or recovery. My left hand wrist is completely messed up from mashing Sinister Strike way too many times. Oh and if you have a low end PC or high latency, too bad you lose. Combat is literally the only spec in the game where you lose a substantial amount of damage from latency or fps.

    Playing Combat is similar to some Demon strapping you to a chair and forcing you to play Piano while dangling from a shark tank. Each missed stroke pulls you closer and closer to the tank and into the belly of the shark. There's absolutely no fun about playing this spec. Oh sure they'll always be people who will pretend that they enjoy it. Well guess what, they're liars. Nobody likes Combat, not even the people who design the Rogue class likes Combat.

    Play Assassination. Don't let fools who play Combat bully you because you decide to play a respectable, simple, enjoyable spec that is viable on EVERY encounter. Assassination is also very relaxing, its one of the few specs where you're not always mashing buttons on every Global, a spec where you can actually have time to rest every now and then. It's also very friendly to lesser geared players. Its a great spec for the Beginner Rogue, Seasoned Rogue and Veteran Rogue.

    Combat is reserved for people who are insane enough to put themselves through the kind of abuse that it delivers. It's also for people who want to be special and pin a medal on themselves that states "I'm special because I play an unrewarding insane spec that nobody plays." Some people may play it because they foolishly think it makes them a better player. It doesn't. It makes you more jaded and cynical over time until you realize that everything you've done is a waste of time.

    My advice would be to pretend as if the spec doesn't exist. Don't level with it, don't pvp with it, don't do scenarios with it, don't do dungeons with it, don't raid with it at low tiers and high alike. If you somehow decide to play it despite my warnings, please for the love of god, bind Sinister Strike to a mouse button. Do not be stupid and bind it to your keyboard like I did.

    Good luck.
    i have to completly aggree whit this. And i am one of that insane people who play combat , but for necessity: in my 25 men raid, we are 3 rogue , and from the first week of ToT, we clear all the bossall the reset, and we only get 4 daggers VIA MOGU FATE COIN (me neither)!!! this is why i have to play combat whit my 2 522-528 fist.. (i had a 510 and 487 leishen dagger only).[COLOR="red"]
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2013-05-23 at 04:45 AM. Reason: removed double post

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