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  1. #1

    I don't want to read up tactics.

    My guild is currently inactive. It is a guild of friends who most of them got tired, or played too much or just simply grown up.

    I've also grown up and I just dont have the same willpower I had when I was younger. Despite that (I've grown up and my guild currently doesn't raid) I am usually still competitive at raid finder, usually being first on the meters, without even strugglying(on LFR gear).

    The reduced willpower directly translates in a struggle when it comes to reading tactics on icy veins or watching a bad video about someone downing a boss without necessarily explaining the fight properly. Apart from these two popular ways of learning a boss fight, in vanilla we traditionally had someone explain in vent the key elements of the fight quickly. That sort of learning process is a taboo nowadays. I've experienced it first hand.

    The question is, and considering that many guilds often struggle with activity, would a guild, or your guild for the matter (who is replying to this thread), recruit a lesser active, perhaps lesser skilled player who pretends to know tactics (I've faced numerous people who still have no idea what to do after supposdely reading the guide or watching the video) because it is "wow's way" (or the highway) over someone like me who honestly is fed up with blizzards 300th boss mechanics and just wants to experience the mechanics in action, otherwise being active and knowing his class, his theory and his buttons?

    As a sidetopic for discussion I've read in the book recently that there are 3 learning styles. Visual, Auditory, Kinesthetic. The author meant to say that we can learning while reading or seeing something, listening something, or actually experiencing something with motions or gestures. He also mentions that traditional schools favor the visual system, tolerate the auditory system and actively discourage the kinesthetic style. Is something similar the case with wow? Is it that evil to actually want to learn by experience and wiping? Is it and should it be a requirement? Some people may jump into quick conclusions and call for "lazy". But is different lazy? Is "fed up" lazy? What if reading some wall of text is just not fun? What if having someone highlighting the key points is more fun, faster and more efficient?

    EDIT: BTW I dont want this discussion to turn personal, about me, about how bad or lazy or innapropriate I am. You can judge me - I will accept it - but the topic is wider beyond me.
    Last edited by Kreeshak; 2013-02-28 at 08:25 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Reading up on tactics makes raiding a lot easier, and most importantly, more fun for those who also read up on tactics. People who don't know anything about the tactics for a boss fight will cost you raid time.

    Learning while doing is also one of my favourite ways of learning as it's a lot easier, and I learn better that way. But to go into a fight where you don't know anything won't get you anywhere.

    If you want to learn while doing, you should join a top 10 progression raid guild. They learn while wiping. Tons of wiping.

  3. #3
    Not reading tactics is lazy. Not watching a video is even lazier. That said, everyone needs to learn a fight by doing it a few times; otherwise top guilds would be known for 1-shotting the hardest fights, not spending many hours on them. Also, no one learns everything through just one style of learning, so you should not simply ignore additional sources because you're a special snowflake that doesn't learn anything that way. We have multiple senses for a reason.

    Also, I'm not sure where explaining a fight in Vent is taboo. A tiresome 10-minute explanation of every little mechanic is not something that should be expected, but a 2-minute synopsis for new people and necessary assignment is something everyone does.

    Sorry you lack the "willpower" to research fights on your own and want to be spoonfed the strategy while wasting the time of 9/24 other people with unnecessary wipes and complete verbal explanations. Research is part of raiding and something the majority of the community expects.

  4. #4
    In before classic raiders and "Back in my day, we didn't have this fancy doodle Youtube thing you youngin's use to upload these videos of how to complete boss fights".

    ...Wait, I am said classic raider. :P

    Some of these fights are just so damn long winded to explain that's it's painful, whether it's explained and demonstrated via video or whatever. Ever had to explain heroic LK from start to finish? I have. Despite this, people still stood in shadow traps and defile. :P

    Nowadays I just thumb through the dungeon journal in-game, make note of any "this will rape your soul and eat your face" mechanics, then go from there.

  5. #5
    I will kick out of the raid and from the guild, if it is up to me..

  6. #6
    We expect everyone on the team to read tactics BUT we also explain them at the beginning at the fight with a focus on how we'll be dealing with them.. we THEN learn and adjust strats from wiping a bunch.

    In short, I agree with you and employ all three learning methods as we have 10 different people who may not learn the same way BUT that doesn't mean I don't love them and want to game with them.

    My co-RL and I love researching every nitty gritty about a fight but we don't expect everyone to do that... if they did, they'd probably be the raid leader or on a top 1% team. We set reasonable expectations. We expect everyone to watch the video(s) we send out in an email before we face the fight.

    Want people to NOT burn out? Do you best to make research easy and consistent (ie send them the info you want retained for the night)

    Also, to the OP I believe both my videos and FATBOSS do a nice job of making the boss videos interesting and fun to watch rather than the oldschool 15minute videos that talked so slowly and treated you like you didn't know anything about the game.

    Frontallobe Tips/Tricks video (me! )



    Fatboss example (the most popular - these guys do more of a spellbook read but it's the defacto standard in current tier raid videos)

    Being generally horrible but helpful since Molten Core;
    When leading was more about managing bathroom breaks than boss mechanics.
    http://www.ihazlead.com - Raid leading guides, tutorials, and videos.

  7. #7
    I don't care for tactics as well. No research. No YouTube. No guides. Who cares?
    Member of the World of Warcraft community since 2001 =)
    No more member of the hardcore raiding scene since Wrath - Coliseum.
    I'm addon author with focus on broker addons. Check out my WoW addons here !

  8. #8
    Honestly, reading up on tactics is not very time consuming, you can spend like an hour of your time, spread out over a week or two if you will, and have a good feeling for how all 12 bosses work in 5.2. It shows when people aren't prepared and when you get to content that isn't faceroll, you're just wasting other people's time if you aren't coming prepared. If you're sitting there trying to figure out wtf is going on in a fight you could have easily already known the details about ahead of time I'm not sure how anyone could think they're doing it right, again, you're wasting people's time that did come prepared. Now if you're whole guild is casual as hell and no one really gives a rats ass about figuring stuff out ahead of time, than by all means, use your own judgement, but with any kind of remotely progression oriented guild, you should do your homework, and I've always found it fun.

    That being said, I learn by actually doing it best myself, and I think most people do and this is why, when applied to WoW for example, most people will improve on their DPS/HPS, their active time or whatever each week even when their gear did not, simply because they are more comfortable with the fight, and kills should only go smoother every time.

  9. #9
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    You can do without tactics. World first guilds have nowhere to read up - and they do it. You just have to be dedicated and good.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  10. #10
    Too time consuming for me. Boss mechanics aren't too complex for not being figured out after one or two wipes, which will happen either. Honestly.

    det: +1
    Member of the World of Warcraft community since 2001 =)
    No more member of the hardcore raiding scene since Wrath - Coliseum.
    I'm addon author with focus on broker addons. Check out my WoW addons here !

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    In the time it took to complain about how lazy you are and how little you like to read, you could have sped through every strategy for the current tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  12. #12
    Reading tacts takes out all the excitement :S

  13. #13
    to jfragment (I didn't want to quote the whole post)

    I've watched your video, and I dont mean any offense I still found it boring. It is NOT your video that is boring. It is me. While I used to love cinema, nowadays I find most movies boring unless they have fast pace and perfect cinematics.

    The point I want to make is not the video however. If I understood correctly the only difference between lei-shi lfr and normal (from a melee dps pov) is that you have to spread during hide, which makes me wonder how innefective or disrespectful would be to being told that detail before the encounter? Perhaps Lei-Shi is an extreme example of simplicity though.
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Rivyr's Avatar
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    Everyone learns in a different way. I do not hold this against anyone but I like for my raiders to read at the very least what a boss does so when I explain it they know what I am talking about. Though I try as best I can to give in game examples of how the mechanic works. While I will say that my raiders need to know what is going on, as raid leader it is my job to make sure everyone knows what is going on. After all a little more time spent of explination is well worth it if it helps to clarify what someones given role will be during the fight. Beyond that, practice makes perfect..

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    In the time it took to complain about how lazy you are and how little you like to read, you could have sped through every strategy for the current tier.
    We are discussing. I don't need teachers to perform well.
    Member of the World of Warcraft community since 2001 =)
    No more member of the hardcore raiding scene since Wrath - Coliseum.
    I'm addon author with focus on broker addons. Check out my WoW addons here !

  16. #16
    When it honestly takes like 5 minutes to read up on a fight and it takes 4+ wipes that could total about 20+ minutes if you dont look it up. Its kinda stupid not to. Especially with fights that have more complex mechanics.

    Now of course when doing fights you still just need to attempt them to see how it all works together. Talking about a boss all day wont kill it, but when you have some knowledge of the fight to build upon it makes everything so much simpler.
    Last edited by Banzubie; 2013-02-28 at 09:16 PM.

  17. #17
    I dont know how anyone cannot enjoy watching a Fatboss raid video guide.

    I lol every time and i learn something to boot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    You can do without tactics. World first guilds have nowhere to read up - and they do it. You just have to be dedicated and good.
    But from my experience as I said in the OP plenty of guilds have the attitude "read tactics or burn"
    Quote Originally Posted by meathead View Post
    The problem is warriors are not easy to kill like we were in cata and people are mad at that
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    Brian may answer differently, but I would say mages are hard to counter for average players but easy for great players.

  19. #19
    And then these guilds complain about bosses get downed too fast. Do it yourself guys. More wipes but more fun
    Member of the World of Warcraft community since 2001 =)
    No more member of the hardcore raiding scene since Wrath - Coliseum.
    I'm addon author with focus on broker addons. Check out my WoW addons here !

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    But from my experience as I said in the OP plenty of guilds have the attitude "read tactics or burn"
    I started playing WoW in vanilla thinking raiding would be exciting and not a chore where you know everything before even attempting the boss for the first time (well there was a time when I tried somewhat competitive raiding where we didn't have everything on videos beforehand, but I burned out on that about when I had the best gear on the server).

    Then I tried out pvp and swoosh the unpredictable enemies tingled me the right way. Sure after 12 seasons this is boring as well when you can read lesser opponents 3 steps ahead if you don't play against players of your level..

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