View Poll Results: Which gear optimizer do you prefer?

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  • Ask Mr. Robot

    21 24.71%
  • Shadowcraft

    60 70.59%
  • None of the above

    4 4.71%
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  1. #1
    Pit Lord Galbrei's Avatar
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    Shadowcraft or Mr.Robot?

    Right now both gear optimizers are giving me very different results. Which one is more trustworthy? Which one, if any, do you guys use?

  2. #2
    As far as I am aware, ShadowCraft simulates your gear, and Mr. Robot only bases recommendations based on stat weights.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Slavka View Post
    As far as I am aware, ShadowCraft simulates your gear, and Mr. Robot only bases recommendations based on stat weights.
    ^.

    AMR does what it does very well - it optimizes your gear based on stat weights that are pre-determined which you can change. The default stat weights are wrong for your character.

    Shadowcraft tells you what your stat weights are, and uses those to reforge/regem your gear. To note; if there's a "sweet spot" where 2 stats change priority, ShC will tell you to reforge entirely one stat or the other - you'll have to find the ideal closer to manually (when the two stats have the same weight).

    Simulationcraft provides stat weights but doesn't reforge/regem gear.

    Your easiest option is to use Shadowcraft. More difficult, but also valid, is to use SimC, set the reforge for AMR, use that reforge for SimC, and repeat this process until you reach an ideal stat distribution. If you're down to deciding between haste and mastery, see discussions in this forum on the topic - in the 5.2 trinket discussion, assassination the nitty gritty, and other recent threads on stats.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Galbrei's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot for the help guys. I'll read up on those topics you mentioned, they seem like interesting read.

  6. #6
    Shadowcraft is a great tool, I won't deny. But like Mugajak said, it's a bit clunky when it tells you to reforge everything to one stat and I don't think it's as exhaustive as AMR.

    My general reforging process consists of either Simc/SC determining stat weightings then AMR telling me the optimal method. With that said, SC or AMR are pretty decent at reforging.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Shadowcraft is a great tool, I won't deny. But like Mugajak said, it's a bit clunky when it tells you to reforge everything to one stat and I don't think it's as exhaustive as AMR.

    My general reforging process consists of either Simc/SC determining stat weightings then AMR telling me the optimal method. With that said, SC or AMR are pretty decent at reforging.
    The thing is, as you reforge your stat weight changes. And i believe shadowcraft accounts for that.

  8. #8
    You can use the stat weights calculated by Shadowcraft on AskMrRobot if you want weights that are calculated specifically for your character. Then you can make use of some of the extra features that AMR has.

    One thing to note is that the weights calculated by SimC or SC are a localized solution. By this, I mean that you won't necessarily want to use those weights across all the ranges of stats possible with your current item budget. The default weights on AMR are created with this in mind. You might be able to tweak out a little more DPS by messing with them at any given time, but they will always get you reasonably close to the best solution right out of the box. (This is why you see the problem on SC where it will reforge too far into a particular secondary stat sometimes - the weights aren't looking "far enough ahead" so to speak.) There is nothing wrong with the way SC or SimC calculates weights - you just have to make sure you understand what they mean.
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  9. #9
    I use AMR on a regular basis for gearing my Mage. They have come a long long way with their site, their knowledge and research for each patch, their services offered, and their overall support that they give to us players. Basically what it boils down to is this - They do a GREAT JOB and are very worth using...the hours they spend in researching gear on our behalf is much appreciated by myself and so many others who raid and depend highly on our gear! THANK YOU AMR!!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    The thing is, as you reforge your stat weight changes. And i believe shadowcraft accounts for that.
    It tells you your new stat weights, but it doesn't optimize your reforge by stat changes on the fly. If your stat priority when you hit reforge is haste > mastery > crit, it reforges haste > mastery > crit. If your stat priority is then mastery > haste > crit, it reforges mastery > haste > crit, and you'll see haste > mastery > crit once again. It's not really "flawed" it's just not designed to the depth of finding the optimal reforge for changing stat weights.

    The problem with just importing stat weights from ShC or SimC to AMR is that stat weights change when you change gear. Otherwise ShC's optimizer would do the job just jolly for all of us, rather than people who don't care about the last ~100 DPS from finding the point where 2 stats have the exact same priority, as revulva points out above. For a rogue, though, since ShC exists and does so much, there's not much I can see AMR offering besides "I already know the platform" =). We're blessed to have such a powerful graphical interface for our class already.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It tells you your new stat weights, but it doesn't optimize your reforge by stat changes on the fly. If your stat priority when you hit reforge is haste > mastery > crit, it reforges haste > mastery > crit. If your stat priority is then mastery > haste > crit, it reforges mastery > haste > crit, and you'll see haste > mastery > crit once again. It's not really "flawed" it's just not designed to the depth of finding the optimal reforge for changing stat weights.

    The problem with just importing stat weights from ShC or SimC to AMR is that stat weights change when you change gear. Otherwise ShC's optimizer would do the job just jolly for all of us, rather than people who don't care about the last ~100 DPS from finding the point where 2 stats have the exact same priority, as revulva points out above. For a rogue, though, since ShC exists and does so much, there's not much I can see AMR offering besides "I already know the platform" =). We're blessed to have such a powerful graphical interface for our class already.
    As I mentioned, I think AMR is more exhaustive. Both tools don't have large computational power and time behind them to find the perfect reforge, settling on a damn close one instead.

    One thing i really can't stand though is the gear rankings. Open my (or any profile) and I have pretty much BIS everything according to SC. Apparently my VP bracers are better than heroic ones, yet when you click the heroic ones they provide better dps and are now ranked higher. It really boggles my mind how you can implement a pretty decent feature that is so flawed, instead you have to go to the piece you would consider replacing-> optimize-> compare dps/caps.

  12. #12
    I may be just a case of "teaching an old dog new tricks" but I've been using AMR from the beginning so its just my reforge resource of choice. Besides I like the options they've added and its just simply user friendly. I don't claim to be some huge expert simcrafter (hats off to those of you who are) but I guess I consider myself the "middle ground" majority. Maybe so, maybe not. AMR just works for me though. In & out.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    The thing is, as you reforge your stat weight changes. And i believe shadowcraft accounts for that.
    This is correct. When I reached a certain threshold on my rogue, my gemming changed substantially. Ask MrRobot didn't update accordingly at the time (and a couple months afterwards). The discussion, of which I was a part on the ElitistJerk forums, allowed the mods of the SC website to weigh in and comment on what the changes were and why. (Appears to be a haste threshold plus the increased AP bonus between 5.1 and 5.2 for combat). Plus, SC mod authors try very carefully to make sure the trinkets are correctly modeled to figure out which is better under most circumstances.

    AMR doesn't do this as well or as thoroughly. That's not AMR's fault, however. SC is designed specifically for rogues and takes a great deal of care making sure it is correct (or as much as can be modeled in a perfect Patchwerk fight which we don't get in most raids).
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by revulva View Post
    You can use the stat weights calculated by Shadowcraft on AskMrRobot if you want weights that are calculated specifically for your character. Then you can make use of some of the extra features that AMR has.

    One thing to note is that the weights calculated by SimC or SC are a localized solution. By this, I mean that you won't necessarily want to use those weights across all the ranges of stats possible with your current item budget. The default weights on AMR are created with this in mind. You might be able to tweak out a little more DPS by messing with them at any given time, but they will always get you reasonably close to the best solution right out of the box. (This is why you see the problem on SC where it will reforge too far into a particular secondary stat sometimes - the weights aren't looking "far enough ahead" so to speak.) There is nothing wrong with the way SC or SimC calculates weights - you just have to make sure you understand what they mean.
    This.

    The thing I've noticed is MrRobot is better right out of the box. The only thing that confuses me is how MrRobot calculates trinkets when the valor trinket is clearly better than Rune of Re-Organization yet MrRobot states the opposite.

  15. #15
    Crookids, here's some more information on how we handle trinkets. While not an exact science, we try to do something quite reasonable. The Rune of Reorigination is a tough one to estimate on top of that.
    Optimize your gear on AskMrRobot.com
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  16. #16
    For rogues, there's almost no reason not to use ShC. It's an awesome tool that's easy to use and equally or more accurate than anything else out there. It has some quirks (auto-optimize, gear comparison, etc.), but they're not that hard to figure out.

    That said, I use AMR for all my alts. Hunters don't have a ShC. Mages don't have a ShC. You have to use SimC or a spreadsheet or some other esoteric web app. AMR is just simple and easy, and it will get you to at least 90%+ optimized really quickly. That's all I really need on an alt.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    For rogues, there's almost no reason not to use ShC. It's an awesome tool that's easy to use and equally or more accurate than anything else out there. It has some quirks (auto-optimize, gear comparison, etc.), but they're not that hard to figure out.

    That said, I use AMR for all my alts. Hunters don't have a ShC. Mages don't have a ShC. You have to use SimC or a spreadsheet or some other esoteric web app. AMR is just simple and easy, and it will get you to at least 90%+ optimized really quickly. That's all I really need on an alt.
    Nothing to add to this.

  18. #18
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    They should only be different if you're not putting in your own stat weights. Otherwise they should be the same, or at least different to a negligible degree. And you should be doing your own stat weights if your concern is accuracy.

    Robot is a great tool but I don't use it for my rogue. There's no need. I'm getting my EP weights from Shadowcraft anyway, might as well use it to reforge, too.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    They should only be different if you're not putting in your own stat weights. Otherwise they should be the same, or at least different to a negligible degree. And you should be doing your own stat weights if your concern is accuracy.
    Well, sort of. The earlier comment that stat weights change based on your gear is correct. (Even ShC shows you this as you add/remove/change gear.) AskMrRobot doesn't, to my knowledge, do that (unless they've added some jiggery pokery in on the backend that suddenly does this when it didn't before).

    It uses a static value, generally determined by EJ at the start of either a major content patch or expansion. That value changes based on gear and usually set to 'end game heroic' gear. Most people don't get to that point. Those values don't become relevant until that gear level is reached. So, having a tool that dynamically updates values based on current gearing is ideal and, by definition, optimized. Less efficient isn't optimal, by definition.

    Robot is a great tool but I don't use it for my rogue. There's no need. I'm getting my EP weights from Shadowcraft anyway, might as well use it to reforge, too.
    Agreed. I only use AskMrRobot on alts - and I don't always follow it because I know when to do so and when not. (Funny story, I was going for hit/expertise caps on my feral kitty before reforging to mastery/crit/haste because of my theorycrafting knowledge. AMR eventually switched their format to this after reading EJ posts suggesting that this was in fact correct and better than the previous configuration priorities.)
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  20. #20
    I think the big problem here is you're kind of comparing apples to pancakes. I mean, Ask Mr. Robot is really great for those million alts and does really well across all classes and specs to get you functional at least to start out. Sure there are a few tricky bits in there, it's hard to fully optimize a tank or a healer without a thorough understanding of your own class. But it's good for everyone.

    On the other hand, shadowcraft seems like the best thing ever for rogues! And when my little rogue is 90 I will surely poke at it and try it. But it's a different type of tool for a different type of market. Dedicated rogue players will want to try everything out to get the most complete picture they can. Forresst the bear druid pretending to be a rogue so she can open some lockboxes and try to get the cool eyepatch hat again? I don't know as much, and I'm more apt to get Robotted so I can have some fun and not die without doing a lot of math.

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