1. #1
    Field Marshal Vyreks's Avatar
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    Heroic Scenario dagger vs. 483 (double upgraded to 491) Sha touched daggers

    As the Title suggests,

    Are the new 1.7 speed ilvl 516 daggers going to be competitive with my 491 Sha Touched Daggers from ToES LFR?

    I'm curious as to what effect 1.7 speed has vs. the normal 1.8 speed daggers usually have.

    Does the 25 ilvl improvement simply outweigh the speed difference??

    Armory is in my sig.

  2. #2
    The 0.1 speed difference isn't going to matter... the top end damage is what really determines which weapon you use for the mainhand. If you got one, it would certainly become your new mainhand, with the spiritsever containing the legendary gem as you offhand. If you got a second one, you'd have to consult shadowcraft or AMR to tell if it were worth ditching the 500 agi from the legendary.
    Tishelle (Rogue) - Tishä (Mage) - Tishandra (DK) - Tisharia (Priest) - Tishanna (Warlock) - Tishie (Monk) - Tishette (Boosted Warrior )

  3. #3
    Hmm not sure why you think .1 speed doesn't matter or why you are saying the top end is the determining factor (unless maybe pvp, but I doubt he means pvp). .1 speed slower means the average contribution from listed weapon damage will be lower compared to a 1.8 dagger of the same ilvl and speed differences are actually fairly significant (now not so much over 20 ilvls). For a weapon with 4k+ dps and using something like dispatch with a huge multiplier, the damage difference between a 1.7 and a 1.8 is important to consider.

    For weapon damage, what you want is the highest average hit, not the highest top end. Now recently it looks like damage ranges are fixed for all weapons of the same ilvl and dps.

  4. #4
    Well, you are right regarding the average damage as being the determining factor. However, I don't know of any weapons that have any really wacky low end damage values which would throw off looking at the top end to quickly determine what weapon to use though. My point was just that the damage increase from the ilvl difference is more than enough to compensate for what is lost by the small speed difference.
    Tishelle (Rogue) - Tishä (Mage) - Tishandra (DK) - Tisharia (Priest) - Tishanna (Warlock) - Tishie (Monk) - Tishette (Boosted Warrior )

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tisha View Post
    Well, you are right regarding the average damage as being the determining factor. However, I don't know of any weapons that have any really wacky low end damage values which would throw off looking at the top end to quickly determine what weapon to use though. My point was just that the damage increase from the ilvl difference is more than enough to compensate for what is lost by the small speed difference.
    Wacky low-end damage values would require wacky top-end damage values, to maintain DPS by ilevel. I'm not sure why people bring up top-end value, when it's really DPS *swingtimer (average damage per swing). This means that a 1.7 dagger (excluding stats) for the purpose of mut/dispatch, is 1/18 weaker than it would be otherwise. It should only take ~4 ilevels to overtake the 1/18 mut/disp loss, so a 516 dagger (MH) should be stronger than a 1.8 510 dagger (closest comparison). Yes, it would make a good mainhand.

    The same does not quite apply to the offhand. You lose less damage through OH mut swings, and agility matters more than weapon DPS. It takes, for most characters I've seen, close to 30 ilevels in the offhand to overtake the sha gem - you can check for yourself in ShC - but given that you've got a 491 spiritsever, you can safely use that in your OH until you see at least 2 522+ daggers (516 + 8 for the upgraded dagger could pull ahead, but you'll have to check once it's out and you actually have 2 and no need to upgrade something else significant with valor).

    For the situation you're looking at, ideally use the 516 (+8) 1.7 MH, and the 491 1.8 Spiritsever OH.


    The math above assumes they're not normalizing the damage for daggers on our abilities, since uh, we only have 1.8 daggers and it's hard to check - and may overestimate the value of mut/disp over auto-attack, but the values are close enough that nothing changes. If it is normalized and all weapons of the same DPS do the same damage per attack, treat this dagger like any other. But again, there's no "close" to check for, so it's not really worth the time. It's >510 regardless, and not as good as 522, so checking shouldn't be necessary.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-05-20 at 09:00 PM.

  6. #6
    @Tisha
    Thats because blizzard mostly standardized things like damage range and weapon speed. In most cases what you are saying is equivalent, but it hasn't always been that way and blizzard does randomly throw out non standardized items, so I think the fact that what you want is highest average hit instead of highest top end is worth being clear on.

    @Muga
    The attacks (mut/dispatch) are normalized, but that doesn't mean 'all weapons of the same dps do the same damage per attack' it just means weapon speed is irrelevant when determining the additional damage on attacks from attack power.

    @OP
    As said, for mh the new one is going to be better. For OH, assuming you upgrade both, I would guess the new one edges out as well, but I would consult sc or simc to be sure.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyreks View Post
    As the Title suggests,

    Are the new 1.7 speed ilvl 516 daggers going to be competitive with my 491 Sha Touched Daggers from ToES LFR?

    I'm curious as to what effect 1.7 speed has vs. the normal 1.8 speed daggers usually have.

    Does the 25 ilvl improvement simply outweigh the speed difference??

    Armory is in my sig.
    Since you'll ALSO be able to upgrade the 516 ilvl daggers to 524, making the overall ilvl difference 33 points, the daggers will be FAR above :FR sha touched for main hand, and a bit better then LFR sha-touched off hand.

    If they were both 491, then the speed difference would matter slightly. Faster weapon speed=more auto attacks, and generally less damage on specials.
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  8. #8
    Field Marshal Vyreks's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice guys.

    I'm gonna try to get a 516 in my MH and hope for a 2nd one for my OH assuming I can't get a 502 or 522 from LFR/25m normals.

    So far, my dagger dropping boss luck has been horrible ever since getting a 2nd LFR Spiritsever.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tisha View Post
    The 0.1 speed difference isn't going to matter... the top end damage is what really determines which weapon you use for the mainhand. If you got one, it would certainly become your new mainhand, with the spiritsever containing the legendary gem as you offhand. If you got a second one, you'd have to consult shadowcraft or AMR to tell if it were worth ditching the 500 agi from the legendary.
    Wrong.

    Top end is not what matters. Average damage does, and average damage is dps * speed, so yes, speed matters. The 516 would be better by virtue of its superior dps.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 10:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyreks View Post
    Thanks for the advice guys.

    I'm gonna try to get a 516 in my MH and hope for a 2nd one for my OH assuming I can't get a 502 or 522 from LFR/25m normals.

    So far, my dagger dropping boss luck has been horrible ever since getting a 2nd LFR Spiritsever.
    How's this for luck. I replaced my 496 fist weap with a 522 strength weapon--last week.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tisha View Post
    The 0.1 speed difference isn't going to matter... the top end damage is what really determines which weapon you use for the mainhand. If you got one, it would certainly become your new mainhand, with the spiritsever containing the legendary gem as you offhand. If you got a second one, you'd have to consult shadowcraft or AMR to tell if it were worth ditching the 500 agi from the legendary.
    Top end damage does not matter in the least bit. Average damage is what you're looking for.

    A weapon that does 0 - 10000 damage would be significantly worse than one that does 5000 - 6000.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyreks View Post
    Thanks for the advice guys.

    I'm gonna try to get a 516 in my MH and hope for a 2nd one for my OH assuming I can't get a 502 or 522 from LFR/25m normals.

    So far, my dagger dropping boss luck has been horrible ever since getting a 2nd LFR Spiritsever.
    LFR Spiritseverer in your offhand will be better than anything below 522 ilvl. The 500 agi gem is worth a lot.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-05-21 at 02:11 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Top end damage does not matter in the least bit. Average damage is what you're looking for.

    A weapon that does 0 - 10000 damage would be significantly worse than one that does 5000 - 6000.
    As I already stated in a previous post... yes the average is indeed the important thing. However, I challenge you to find any recent dagger which has an absurdly out of proportion low end which would make the distinction worth worrying about.
    Tishelle (Rogue) - Tishä (Mage) - Tishandra (DK) - Tisharia (Priest) - Tishanna (Warlock) - Tishie (Monk) - Tishette (Boosted Warrior )

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Vyreks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    LFR Spiritseverer in your offhand will be better than anything below 522 ilvl. The 500 agi gem is worth a lot.
    Ok, that is a good point, the 500 agi gem is work a lot for sure.

    Here's another question entirely though, will the Eye of the Black Prince (extra gem socket) work on the 516 Heroic Scenario daggers??

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyreks View Post
    Ok, that is a good point, the 500 agi gem is work a lot for sure.

    Here's another question entirely though, will the Eye of the Black Prince (extra gem socket) work on the 516 Heroic Scenario daggers??
    It prolly wont but recently they changed it to work on the reborn weapons so we have to wait and see.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    @Muga
    The attacks (mut/dispatch) are normalized, but that doesn't mean 'all weapons of the same dps do the same damage per attack' it just means weapon speed is irrelevant when determining the additional damage on attacks from attack power.
    Riiight. Been a while since we talked normalization. That should further drop the divide in damage by weapon, so we're probably down to a ~2 ilevel loss by approximation standards for the MH, and less of a loss for the OH, but again for anyone else reading: there's no dagger even remotely close to compare to, so it's solidly "in its place" where it is.

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