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  1. #1

    Cloak and Dagger Developers Mistakes (Review & Suggestions)

    In patch 5.2, they had release a new rogue talent called Cloak and Dagger. I don't know what made them do this but its a remodeled version of the combats killing spree. Imagine Killing Spree + Steroids. You get the same advantages like teleporting behind every hit. Melee unable to do anything, casters cant run away, and casuals spamming complains. I also did that, not until I played my own rogue and start loving it.

    They had realized they did unleash a monstrosity and decided its needed to be leashed. They nerfed CnD into a passive version of Shadow Step minus the movement speed bonus and cast range. Did they miss that part?...I mean the part which says "Nerfed but Passive version of Shadow step".

    I really think they have bad people working with them. I am not saying their dumb since if ever there is one, that's me and only me. My point is, they don't see the comparison from one skill to another like how I realize "OMG this is exactly like killing spree, only 100x stronger" or how I realized "OH wait, this is like shadow step, but retarded weak. Am I the only one who notice those? I don't think so.

    Being a victim and playing a rogue myself gave me a conclusion that the talent is imbalance and overpowered. No matter how I am attached to it, or should I say love at 1st use (...ignore me) As I were saying, it is reasonable to nerf the skill but I find that difficult. No matter how I think of a possible solution, nerfing could never balance such talent. There is only 2 choice and that's be godlike or become an ignored talent.

    So, I there for conclude, base on my own experience and research...they should just remove CnD and replace it with something else. PVP players will rage over such idea but there is a fix to such madness. Make the patch 5.3 CnD into a Passive attached to Shadowstep. It should sound like this

    Shadowstep
    24 sec cd, 40 range, 70% MS
    Passive: teleports behind the target upon using an opener, does not work with subterfuge and shadow dance


    Then the new skill that should replace CnD would be the old zero cd redirect, BUT now as a passive.
    New Redirect Talent (Different from the one they removed at patch 5.2)
    All Combo points now automatically transfer and does not disappear on dead targets.
    Replaces Redirect and has zero cd(makes it a passive)


    Now the tier 4 talent choice would finally be balance (close, but not perfect)
    >Auto Point Transfer with zero cd (Pure passive)
    >Shadow Step with a new passive (patch 5.3 cnd as its passive)
    >MS speed increase (I really think this needs a buff)

    If they use their imagination, they can just rework CnD
    New CND
    Every Finisher Blinks you Behind the Enemy

    See? Easy balance fix right?. You only use finisher at 5 points, it takes time to make those points and you don't spam it like how subterfuge and shadow dance deal with ambush. Most of the time you are energy starve spamming point builder and you got none left for a finisher. They are concentrating on numbers too much, they are forgetting "cause and effect".
    Last edited by Tomia; 2013-05-20 at 02:54 AM.

  2. #2
    High Overlord
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    This is supposed to be our mobility tier, how exactly does your idea improve mobility? A DPS only, melee only class with no real baseline gap closer. Something like a restless blades for sprint in every spec + snare removal would be a better idea imo.

    Also, your "new" Shs is way too restrictive, and almost exactly what they are doing with CND. 24 sec CD and only usable with stealth kinda defeats the purpose... we can get close when they cant see us, its when we are getting kited out of stealth we have the problem.
    Why is there no "Demonhunter" hero class yet? He was only the coolest hero in WC3. Get busy Blizzard.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    This is supposed to be our mobility tier, how exactly does your idea improve mobility? A DPS only, melee only class with no real baseline gap closer. Something like a restless blades for sprint in every spec + snare removal would be a better idea imo.

    Also, your "new" Shs is way too restrictive, and almost exactly what they are doing with CND. 24 sec CD and only usable with stealth kinda defeats the purpose... we can get close when they cant see us, its when we are getting kited out of stealth we have the problem.
    You misunderstood it, The new SHS is like the warriors double time. Get it? 2 blinks instead of one. Passive which gives any opener a free blink while at stealth ONLY and the same skill provides a 24 sec cd blink whenever you want. So that's exactly like the warriors double time talent in rogue version.

    You need to realize the patch 5.2 CND is overpowered and there is no way to nerf it without becoming an ignorable talent. I agree with the nerf but as long as they can find a way to balance the 3 choice, which is not possible. The only way is to just stack it with SHS and add a new choice with equivalent value.

    MS+Snare removal is already a tier choice, you might have ignored and missed it. Check your rogue, you already have it. Its beside Shadow Dance and its on the same value as Shadow Dance when it comes to mobility.

    The problem here is CND, which is a beloved by the users but hated by the victims because its obviously over powered. Make the patch 5.3 CND a shadow step bonus passive then replace the talent spot with something new and balance. I only gave an example, it is indirectly a mobility talent but its the best I could come up without forgetting the word "balance".

    My Idea is:
    CND should be replaced with a zero CD passive redirect, which keeps the points of corps even if you skinned or looted it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    I don't know what made them do this but its a remodeled version of the combats killing spree. Imagine Killing Spree + Steroids.
    A killing spree that doesn't make you immune to cc is a Killing Spree + Steroids interesting.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    A killing spree that doesn't make you immune to cc is a Killing Spree + Steroids interesting.
    It doesn't make you immune to stun, you can cloak everything else. Rather than stun, everything else is like Killing spree but with insane damage. Get the point? It really is the steroid version of KS.

    I love the talent. I don't hate it in anyway. If they ignore it, I will use it all the time...but my conscience cant handle how overpowered it is, so I find the nerf reasonable. Reason why I made this review is because the nerf they are doing is wrong. It will reduce its value far lower than Shadow Dance and the other One.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    You misunderstood it, The new SHS is like the warriors double time. Get it? 2 blinks instead of one. Passive which gives any opener a free blink while at stealth ONLY and the same skill provides a 24 sec cd blink whenever you want. So that's exactly like the warriors double time talent in rogue version.
    Shadowstep with an added bonus in stealth so you just made a talent that everyone will take for everything. Thats not their goal with the talents. If you're going to make a copy of a talent on the same tier and just make it better then you'd have to buff the original talent enough to still be an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    It doesn't make you immune to stun, you can cloak everything else. Rather than stun, everything else is like Killing spree but with insane damage. Get the point? It really is the steroid version of KS.

    I love the talent. I don't hate it in anyway. If they ignore it, I will use it all the time...but my conscience cant handle how overpowered it is, so I find the nerf reasonable. Reason why I made this review is because the nerf they are doing is wrong. It will reduce its value far lower than Shadow Dance and the other One.
    If you use cloak while dancing it won't really matter if you Cnd or shadowstep. Killing spree but with insane dmg interesting. Have you seen woundman play combat killing spree on 1 target > shadowdance as far as dmg killing spree has other issues but dmg isn't one.

    Lets look at what happens when other melee pop cd's Warrior if you try to just kite them without roots or hard cc you don't get the warrior off you, Feral same thing, Enh burst is 30yards, monks nope not kitting that by just running away. But rogues without Cnd easily peeled by just running away with the rogue snared. But with cnd you have to do the same thing as the other melee and use hard cc.

    So with that in mind what makes cnd so overpowered compared with warrior, feral, or monk mobility? If the issue is with cc with it just make it only with ambush. But none of this matters its nerfed tues and won't get fixed until 5.4 is live so all this is pointless until we at least get 5.4 ptr.

    Rogues need 70% passive crip again and poisons on throw or mobility buffed up to what other melee got this expansion.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-05-20 at 03:36 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Shadowstep with an added bonus in stealth so you just made a talent that everyone will take for everything. Thats not their goal with the talents. If you're going to make a copy of a talent on the same tier and just make it better then you'd have to buff the original talent enough to still be an option.

    If you use cloak while dancing it won't really matter if you Cnd or shadowstep. Killing spree but with insane dmg interesting. Have you seen woundman play combat killing spree on 1 target > shadowdance as far as dmg killing spree has other issues but dmg isn't one.

    Lets look at what happens when other melee pop cd's Warrior if you try to just kite them without roots or hard cc you don't get the warrior off you, Feral same thing, Enh burst is 30yards, monks nope not kitting that by just running away. But rogues without Cnd easily peeled by just running away with the rogue snared. But with cnd you have to do the same thing as the other melee and use hard cc.

    So with that in mind what makes cnd so overpowered compared with warrior, feral, or monk mobility? If the issue is with cc with it just make it only with ambush. But none of this matters its nerfed tues and won't get fixed until 5.4 is live so all this is pointless until we at least get 5.4 ptr.

    Rogues need 70% passive crip again and poisons on throw or mobility buffed up to what other melee got this expansion.
    Dude, your completely mixing up all the comments and replying it using the messed up idea it had created.
    I will clarify and put the puzzle back together.

    I said the Cloak and Dagger talent, being used with shadow dance is COMPARABLE to a Killing Spree because it has the same concept which is consecutive blinking behind while doing damage. If you are going to compare 2 styles which are similar to each other then I can make a conclusion that CND+ Shadow Dance is the steroid version of Killing Spree. Get it? No? Moving on...

    Next puzzle you had created in your mind. Someone said Killing Spree makes you immune to CC so I replied If EVER you use Cloak of Shadow WITH Shadow dance + CND then you will come up with a steroid clone of killing spree. Get it? No? Moving on...

    Now, lets talk about you pointing out CND is not overpowered.
    Subterfuge: 3 Openers = 3 Auto blinks BEHIND
    Shadow Dance: 4-5 Openers = 4-5 Auto Blinks BEHIND

    Now tell me again, how many counters can you do with 3-5 auto blinks? Plus Cloak of Shadow makes you immune to everything except stuns, Which you can clearly Trinket out. Now answer this, are you sure its not OVERPOWERED?? think again.

    The 1st part, you said I just buffed shadow step. Reason is simple, people already have fallen in love with CND but the nerf is just too much. Their is no possible way to make it equal in value with shadow dance without making it an ignorable talent. The solution is simple, just make the patch 5.3 an added passive buff to shadow step then create a new talent with equivalent value to replace CND. Its up for them to use their imagination for a replacement.
    Last edited by Tomia; 2013-05-20 at 04:15 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post

    Now tell me again, how many counters can you do with 3-5 auto blinks? Plus Cloak of Shadow makes you immune to everything except stuns, Which you can clearly Trinket out. Now answer this, are you sure its not OVERPOWERED?? think again.
    Sounds like your problem is with cloak.

    Anyway nothing matters until the 5.4 ptr.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Sounds like your problem is with cloak.

    Anyway nothing matters until the 5.4 ptr.
    NOOOOoooooOOOOOo

    So summarize all the nerf its
    PvP power gain is reduced by 50%
    PvP power/resi on gems are reduce by 50%
    Find weakness is now 50% (down from 70%)
    CND now only works on stealth (NOT shadow dance, NOT subterfuge)
    Rogues are now uninstalling wow
    WoW has lost another million subscribers
    Sussan Express has given up on both diablo and wow
    Blizzards technicians are PRO and well educated on the situation
    NOW WORIES, we now get healing from pvp power. MORE RECUPERATE and Bandage...does it even include bandage? how about Leaching poison?...still, everything will be fine, no worries.

    Does that make everything clear? That is the blue post for patch 5.3 on Tuesday

    I want Patch 6.0 not patch 5.4

  10. #10
    why not make shadow step baseline and then let the 3 talents increase shadow step. someting in the line of

    1: increase the range of shs by xx

    2. lower the cd of shs

    3. give shs 2 charges. so you can duble shs when needed

    because all they do is overbuffing talents to make it somewhat more atractive then shs. but then next patch nerfing it again

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    why not make shadow step baseline and then let the 3 talents increase shadow step. someting in the line of

    1: increase the range of shs by xx

    2. lower the cd of shs

    3. give shs 2 charges. so you can duble shs when needed

    because all they do is overbuffing talents to make it somewhat more atractive then shs. but then next patch nerfing it again
    YES, best idea...better than mine
    >Every Spec should just have Shadow Step (Your idea)
    >CnD is a passive talent choice that modifies shadow step (MY idea)
    >Make new talent to replace shadow step

    Problem done, all spec is balance...no op, no retard nerf...how can the developers not think of this? dem brains mon

  12. #12
    The Patient FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    I never really liked CnD and so i cant understand why most rogues use it. Might be that my "style" is just different but.... yah. I just prefer BoS+Nightstalker = makes you so fast its unreal. I tried using shadow focus+CnD but it feelt way to slow for me.

    But, i must say that still changes made to CnD are retarded because i allready considered CnD and kinda "maimed" ShS (like you can made a macro shs+opener and basically that same thing, with ability to use shs out of stealth) - because you ShS lets you do so much more while the only adventage to CnD was that it allowed you to have gimmicly stuff with subterfuge and ShDance.

    I dont even consider it as viable talent anymore- its dead now, and only options that still count are BoS or ShS.

    They could at least give Hit and Run from last PTR, while it could turn out to not be so usefull it would give something interesting/gimmicly to play around.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome the9tail's Avatar
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    CnD still works with Subterfuge correct and not Shadow Dance correct?

    So it will still be used but it wont be the default choice, as you said its a choice between passive and active teleportation and with Glyph of Shadow, Prep and Vanish helping with Subterfuge in RBGs - people could still choose the passive choice.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    In patch 5.2, they had release a new rogue talent called Cloak and Dagger. I don't know what made them do this but its a remodeled version of the combats killing spree. Imagine Killing Spree + Steroids. You get the same advantages like teleporting behind every hit. Melee unable to do anything, casters cant run away, and casuals spamming complains. I also did that, not until I played my own rogue and start loving it.
    (A) They implemented it because they made Prep baseline and needed a replacement talent in that tier. It had to be a strong mobility talent because it competes with ShS.

    (B) Why would anyone expect to be able to just walk away from a Rogue during ShD? Any Rogue with a brain saves ShD until their target is rooted, stunned, slowed or otherwise unable to escape.

    (C) CnD in no way increases the damage of ShD, nor does it make the Rogue immune to stuns, fears or any other kind of peel other than slows/roots.

    I really don't see why people think this talent is so awesomely powerful. I feel it's actually inferior to ShS.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 05:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    why not make shadow step baseline and then let the 3 talents increase shadow step. someting in the line of

    1: increase the range of shs by xx

    2. lower the cd of shs

    3. give shs 2 charges. so you can duble shs when needed

    because all they do is overbuffing talents to make it somewhat more atractive then shs. but then next patch nerfing it again
    First of all, everyone would take 3.

    Secondly, by that logic every Rogue ability would wind up baseline. The whole point of talents is diversification.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 05:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    It doesn't make you immune to stun, you can cloak everything else. Rather than stun, everything else is like Killing spree but with insane damage. Get the point? It really is the steroid version of KS.
    Well everything has insane damage compared to KS lol. But you're being ridiculous, it has no more damage than any properly executed ShD.

    Honestly, targets moving away during ShD is so rarely a concern I can't see what all the fuss is about.
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  15. #15
    Herald of the Titans Naxere's Avatar
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    Cloak and Dagger was SO heavily biased towards Subtlety that I figured it would get changed eventually.

  16. #16
    The Patient FAILoZOFF's Avatar
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    I stated that way before 5.2 went live that this is a very poorly designed talent that promotes only one talent spec while all other talents for other classes are aimed to fit well them all.
    Still i have seen non sub rogues using it for both pvp and pve, and i ask why? Is it so hard to make a macro shs+opener or even use them separately because then you have that same effect + ablity to use it every 24s without any stealth requirements or even you can shs to friendly target.

    Sprint has close to no use when you take BoS, only time i use it is when im low on energy and need to chase my target.
    Would change BoS name to Sprint and delete sprint (coz i like sprint name better than bos ;P)
    Then ShS fbaseline with mobility tier adding something cool to it and boom, rogues have viable gap closer.

    Also I think ST nad DT should be baseline but nerfed.
    ST have no autoattack, and DT to no longer interrupt cast- instead its bebuff reduces targets damage and healing for 1s every cp.
    Why? Because these are fun and very rogueish abilities.

    Also Poisons needs rework, they all should be baseline. You can only have 1 of 2 types at the time anyway, and with pvp bonus if you dont take any of talented poisons you have no choice at all, Imo it kills the purpose of having to apply them ;3

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomia View Post
    Its up for them to use their imagination for a replacement.
    Unfortunately, Blizzard class devs have shown little-to-no imaginative capacity when it comes to the class.

    Hence Rogues having changed the LEAST since original beta.

  18. #18
    Anything short of Step Baseline with a tree devoted to changing it (like warriors charge) is garbage.

    CnD was broken and shouldn't have ever made it live

    I lived through 5.0 5.1 and now that 5.3 is here I'm not sure if I'll even bother until our mobility is looked at.
    Want Rogue Gameplay? Subtlety/Assassination Guides? 2v2 3v3 and 1v1 strategies?

    http://www.youtube.com/user/SusejFTW

    Also SCP Containment Breach, Guild Wars 2, and Diablo 3!

  19. #19
    Just replace Cloak and Dagger with "Kunai toss" or something.

    You shout "GET OVER HERE" and pull the player back towards you with it.

    Honestly though, when you look at things like Warriors charge, it's kinda ridiculous that Shadowstep isn't baseline now anyway.

  20. #20
    Teleporting behind your target upon opener should be a baseline thing (not working with SD and Subterfuge.) Not worked in with SS, just baseline.

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