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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    [5.3] Mage Bomb Discussion

    We all know the buff tomorrow (today-ish) to LB should make it superior on purely ST, but is that going to make it worth using on fights that have one additional target? I've looked through threads, and all I keep finding are small tidbits of information from everyone spread out across random threads (none even having bombs as the focus).

    SO, no more! I'm making a thread for it.

    Keep the topic purely to Mage Bombs. Feel free to differentiate between specs, what fights/# of targets which bomb is best on each, etc., just please, keep it to Bombs and their usage in 5.3.

    Any testing from the PTR/Live testing once the patch goes through, would be great and very helpful. [if you plan to do so, include your Haste rating unless the numbers all drastically lean towards one side]




    Edit 5/25: Looks like it's official that LB outweighs NT for PURELY single target fights. I've compiled a few lists below for which bomb "wins" on each fight. Something to keep in mind though is I'm only 2/13H (with experience in 4H, and knowledge of 7H), so if I get something wrong, don't come to my house with pitchforks and torches >_>; just say something and I'll update it!

    LB Wins
    - Jin'rohk (N/H) [One target]
    - Megaera (N/H) [One target]
    - Ji-Kun, as a NON-FLIER ONLY (N/H) [One target]
    - Durumu (N) [One target; occasional adds that are too far to cleave with NT]
    - Primordius (N/H) [There are adds, but once you get your buffs, there's only one target]
    - Iron Qon (N/H) [One target] [HEROIC ONLY: For the beginning of P4, NT is better in that brief moment. If you need higher DPS JUST for that section, take NT instead. LB will yield higher DPS overall though, just not during that period]
    - Lei Shen (N/H?) [I don't know H LS at all. Will edit once I know more]

    NT Wins
    - Horridon (N/H) [Adds. Adds. Adds. Multidotting + Cleaving? It's what NT is known for]
    - Council (N/H) [Even moreso when they're all stacked up on N]
    - Tortos (N/H) [There's just so many turtles and bats around that you're bound to cleave with it, though Frost Bomb would be a viable choice on Normal if your group is having problems with the bats] [Update 5/26: Most Mages play Frost on Tortos, and Brain Freeze procs more often with NT than LB. This coupled with the fact that slowing Turtles and burst DPSing them being vital components points to NT being better than LB, especially on Heroic where Ranged DPS need to step it up a notch]
    - Ji-Kun as a FLIER ONLY (N/H) [Bird cleave, and even better, egg cleave]
    - Durumu (H) [Ice Walls]

    Still Debatable or Preference based
    - Dark Animus [Completely preference based, or depends how your guild does this fight. I think it's pretty safe to say that NO amount of math will really say which is better overall, but if you're only concerned about DPS on Animus, LB is your choice]
    - Twin Consorts [Probably leaning towards LB, but it's in the air on this one]

    Unless you need to squeeze out EVERY last drop of DPS though, over the course of a raid, it probably won't affect you too much if you prefer LB or NT. Now if you pick FB, that's when you should consider a new bomb.

    As far as RPPM goes, some of you have been reporting a higher RPPM proc rate with LB over NT, but I don't get how that would be the case, unless people are specifically changing from Haste to Mastery (for Fire) when using LB over NT. NT = (almost) 3x the proc rate of LB, so Blizzard's RPPM system scales NT down to having 33% the chance to proc, but still having the average procs throughout. More testing will be needed on this using the same specialization. (Testing LB as Fire and then NT as Frost, for example, won't net good RPPM results, even moreso on the legendary)



    Current Issues and Questions
    - Brain Freeze procs more with NT than LB. This is an important component of Frost's damage, and something easily overlooked
    -- Yes, RNG plays a bigger role in procs, but 9% x3 = 27%, while LB = 25% a tick, and between LB Haste breakpoints, NT scales even better with BF

    ^- Is Arcane Missiles similar, or are proc rates similar through all bombs? Either way, NT also procs higher amounts of AM than LB does (Significantly more if proc rates are the same, unlike BF where it's a small-decent sized difference)



    TL;DR section
    - LB is flat out better on purely ST fights. NT is better on fights with adds/cleaving/AoE. It's questionable on DA, TC, and LS.
    - Reports of higher RPPM uptime with LB. More research, testing, and/or theorycrafting required.
    - Using NT or LB for all 12 (13) fights won't make or break you unless your raid requires every extra drop of DPS. Since you're not competing for World Firsts anymore, it really shouldn't make a difference, especially with VP upgrading and higher leveled gear.
    - Many people still hate L90 talents. Actual news at 11.



    Changelog 5/26
    - Added a "Current Issues and Questions" section
    - Decided to start making Changelogs because I edit this shit near daily due to new information being fed constantly
    - Additional information on Tortos
    - Added Durumu Heroic from (no section) to NT
    - Primordius changed from NT to LB
    - Iron Qon Heroic information updated
    - Lei Shen changes from Debatable to LB
    - I decided to make things a bit more colorful
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-05-26 at 09:37 PM.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    We all know the buff tomorrow (today-ish) to LB should make it superior on purely ST, but is that going to make it worth using on fights that have one additional target? I've looked through threads, and all I keep finding are small tidbits of information from everyone spread out across random threads (none even having bombs as the focus).

    SO, no more! I'm making a thread for it.

    Keep the topic purely to Mage Bombs. Feel free to differentiate between specs, what fights/# of targets which bomb is best on each, etc., just please, keep it to Bombs and their usage in 5.3.



    (Also: Any testing from the PTR/Live testing once the patch goes through, would be great and very helpful. [if you plan to do so, include your Haste rating unless the numbers all drastically lean towards one side])
    Sorry but I still don't see how LB will do more single target damage than NT.. NT's base damage is 3900/tick and it ticks 3 times more often than the 4288 of LB..

    So yes LB scales better with sp now, but NT has a big big lead. So let's take 40k sp: (3900+40000*0,2436)*15=204660 against (4288+40000*0,8036)*5+0,08*40000+429=185789

    I might be calculating it wrong, but there is no way LB is going to beat NT at least till LB gets buffed or we get a lot more SP

    Edit: Actually forgot that the explosion scales too now.. Not sure how it actually calculates from the haste, so leaving it out still
    Last edited by mrgreenthump; 2013-05-21 at 07:25 AM.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Neoxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Sorry but I still don't see how LB will do more single target damage than NT.. NT's base damage is 3900/tick and it ticks 3 times more often than the 4288 of LB..

    So yes LB scales better with sp now, but NT has a big big lead. So let's take 40k sp: (3900+40000*0,2436)*15=204660 against (4288+40000*0,8036)*5+0,08*40000+429=185789

    I might be calculating it wrong, but there is no way LB is going to beat NT at least till LB gets buffed or we get a lot more SP

    Edit: Actually forgot that the explosion scales too now.. Not sure how it actually calculates from the haste, so leaving it out still
    The extra dmg from the explosion scales the same way as the ticks from Living Bomb.
    The formulas are:

    Living Bomb:
    (4288/4 + 0.8036*SP)*bomb_ticks + ((4288/4 + 0.8036*SP)*bomb_ticks)*0.1

    Nether Tempest:
    (3900/12 + 0.2436*SP)*bomb_ticks


    Example 1: 35k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks
    29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1 = 145990 + 14599 = 160589

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks
    8851*14 = 123914


    Example 2: 35k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks
    29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1 = 145990 + 14599 = 160589

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks
    8851*15 = 132765


    Example 3: 40k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks
    33216*5 + 33216*5*0.1 = 166080 + 16608 = 182688

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks
    10069*14 = 140966


    Example 4: 40k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks
    33216*5 + 33216*5*0.1 = 166080 + 16608 = 182688

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks
    10069*15 = 151035


    This examples are for non goblins and without Frost Armor. Please correct me if my calculations are wrong!
    edit: Thank you tannzenator



    What can you see from this numbers:
    - Living Bomb is way ahead on single target
    - Living Bomb scales way better with spellpower
    - Nether Tempest becomes better with more haste, but still behind Living bomb

    BUT there are much more things to consider like:
    - int procs from trinkets and weapon enchants
    - haste procs from meta gem, trinkets, bloodlust --> it's hard to get additional bomb ticks from Living Bomb, much easier for Nether Tempest
    - Living Bomb has a fixed 1.0 sec global cooldown, Nether Tempest doesn't
    - Living Bomb lasts longer than Nether Tempest
    - cleave dmg from both bombs (number of targets is a big factor here)
    - encounter design
    - some more things



    tl;dr:
    Seems like Living Bomb is the way to go in 5.3 for single target fights.
    Hopefully this post helps other people for theorycrafting etc.
    Last edited by Neoxx; 2013-05-21 at 02:50 PM.

  4. #4
    The tooltip formula are deceptive for LB and NT. The base damage per tick (before sp) for NT is actually 3900/12 and for LB is 4288/4.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    I may be mistaken but I didn't think the explosion hit the target the bomb was applied to, just those around it.
    I haven't used LB in what seems like ages so I may be mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk Myz's Avatar
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    Without math to back up my argument (I don't have the time to check myself), and only PTR experience on the subject, I'd suppose we'd go something like this:

    Jin'rokh: LB
    Horridon: NT
    Council: NT
    Tortos: NT? (I noticed that even with slows, turtles often don't stay within NT cleave range for more than a few ticks)
    Megaera: LB
    Ji-Kun: LB
    Durumu: LB
    Primordius: LB (I have Balance Druids, Priests and Locks to sit on adds)
    Dark Animus: LB (At least with our strategy where everyone gets assigned one golem and tanks slowly pick them off until their Large golem is full, after which we activate the boss. The cleaving potential with NT here is almost nil, unless you count scumbag DPS on the Large Golems)
    Iron Qon: LB
    Twin Consorts: LB (Would have to see if the limited use of NT cleave on Tears and final phase is worth it, doubt it)
    Lei Shen: LB

    The change does seem marginal at best though. I suppose you could run with whatever you wanted and not see any form of significant drop in performance, especially at higher levels of Haste. Still, LB seems to outperform NT on fights where NT can't cleave.
    Last edited by Myz; 2013-05-21 at 01:00 PM.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Neoxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannzenator View Post
    The tooltip formula are deceptive for LB and NT. The base damage per tick (before sp) for NT is actually 3900/12 and for LB is 4288/4.
    That's absolutely right, thank you.
    I edited my post, numbers are so different now ... Living Bomb seems way better now lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    I may be mistaken but I didn't think the explosion hit the target the bomb was applied to, just those around it.
    I haven't used LB in what seems like ages so I may be mistaken.
    The explosion hits the target and everything around.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 04:43 PM ----------

    Ok I'm bored ... multi target here we go!


    All these calculations are for non goblins and without Frost Armor. Please correct me if something is wrong!


    35k spellpower:

    Example 5: 2 targets, 35k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 2*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*2 + (29198*5*0,1)*2 = 321178 + 29198 = 350376

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*14)*2 + (8851*14*0.5)*2 = 247828 + 123914 = 371742


    Example 6: 2 targets, 35k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 2*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*2 + (29198*5*0,1)*2 = 321178 + 29198 = 350376

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*15)*2 + (8851*15*0.5)*2 = 265530 + 132765 = 398295


    Example 7: 3 targets, 35k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 6*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*3 + (29198*5*0,1)*6 = 481767 + 87594 = 569361

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*14)*3 + (8851*14*0.5)*3 = 371742 + 185871 = 557613


    Example 8: 3 targets, 35k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 6*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*3 + (29198*5*0,1)*6 = 481767 + 87594 = 569361

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*15)*3 + (8851*15*0.5)*3 = 398295 + 199147,5 = 597442,5


    Example 9: 5 targets, 35k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff
    Note: Living Bomb is capped at 3, so I only take 3 Nether Tempest to compare

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 15*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*3 + (29198*5*0,1)*12 = 481767 + 175188 = 656955

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*14)*3 + (8851*14*0.5)*3 = 371742 + 185871 = 557613


    Example 10: 5 targets, 35k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff
    Note: Living Bomb is capped at 3, so I only take 3 Nether Tempest to compare

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 15*explosion cleave
    (29198*5 + 29198*5*0,1)*3 + (29198*5*0,1)*12 = 481767 + 175188 = 656955

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (8851*15)*3 + (8851*15*0.5)*3 = 398295 + 199147,5 = 597442,5



    40k spellpower:


    Example 11: 2 targets, 40k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 2*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*2 + (33216*5*0,1)*2 = 365376 + 33216 = 398592

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*14)*2 + (10069*14*0.5)*2 = 281932 + 140966 = 422898


    Example 12: 2 targets, 40k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 2*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*2 + (33216*5*0,1)*2 = 365376 + 33216 = 398592

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*15)*2 + (10069*15*0.5)*2 = 302070 + 151035 = 453105


    Example 13: 3 targets, 40k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 6*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*6 = 548064 + 99648 = 647712

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*14)*3 + (10069*14*0.5)*3 = 422898 + 211449 = 634347


    Example 14: 3 targets, 40k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 6*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*6 = 548064 + 99648 = 647712

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*15)*3 + (10069*15*0.5)*3 = 452925 + 226462,5 = 679387,5


    Example 15: 5 targets, 40k SP, 5k haste from gear + raid haste buff
    Note: Living Bomb is capped at 3, so I only take 3 Nether Tempest to compare

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 12*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*12 = 548064 + 199296 = 747360

    Nether Tempest: 14 ticks + 14 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*14)*3 + (10069*14*0.5)*3 = 422898 + 211449 = 634347


    Example 16: 5 targets, 40k SP, 6.5k haste from gear + raid haste buff
    Note: Living Bomb is capped at 3, so I only take 3 Nether Tempest to compare

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 12*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*12 = 548064 + 199296 = 747360

    Nether Tempest: 15 ticks + 15 cleave ticks per bomb
    (10069*15)*3 + (10069*15*0.5)*3 = 453105 + 226552,5 = 679657,5



    TL;DR:


    - all these calculations are for non goblins and without Frost Armor.
    - it's simple napkin math and doesn't consider procs, target debuffs etc.
    - other things I have listed in my first post


    1 target:
    LB > NT

    2 targets:
    LB < NT

    3 targets:
    LB = NT
    (LB is little better if you can't get the 15th NT tick, else NT is a littel better)

    5 targets:
    LB < NT if you dot 5/5 targets with NT
    LB > NT if you only dot 3/5 targets



    After all these calculations I think that I will use Living Bomb for single target fights and Nether Tempest for multitarget fights.
    Last edited by Neoxx; 2013-05-21 at 03:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    That's absolutely right, thank you.
    I edited my post, numbers are so different now ... Living Bomb seems way better now lol
    No problem, I only just noticed that a few days ago myself when calculations weren't matching up with actual damage done. Now it works like a charm. In the end this should be a significant buff to LB because the entire spell now scales with haste instead of half of it. I honestly do not know if this was the intended way for tick damage to work but it does (probably would not have needed the buff a ways back if it was calculated as written).

    Also, I believe simcraft is calculating it incorrectly by applying the 3900 (or 4288 for LB) to each tick.

  9. #9
    Well good to be wrong then if the base damage is divided by the ammount of ticks at 0 haste

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckx View Post
    BUT there are much more things to consider like:
    - int procs from trinkets and weapon enchants
    - haste procs from meta gem, trinkets, bloodlust --> it's hard to get additional bomb ticks from Living Bomb, much easier for Nether Tempest
    - Living Bomb has a fixed 1.0 sec global cooldown, Nether Tempest doesn't
    - Living Bomb lasts longer than Nether Tempest
    - cleave dmg from both bombs (number of targets is a big factor here)
    - encounter design
    - some more things
    Very helpful, I also did some maths regarding multi-target fights and came up with similar conclusions to yours (though I calculated for my own spellpower and haste, of course!).

    Regards haste and int procs, obviously int procs will benefit LB more than NT, but I don't imagine this will make it stronger than NT's cleave on 2-3 target fights. For the way haste affects NT: at 8.9k a tick, bloodlust gives you about 19 ticks (as opposed to a usual 15), which is an extra 36k or so, giving (stealing your numbers!) 132765 + 36000 = 168765 compared to LB's 160589. However, bloodlust also gives us one extra tick of LB, bumping up its damage/12s to 192706k. So NT can't catch up to LB single target with the aid of haste procs. (I won't take into account the meta gem proccing during BL because, well, 10s won't make a different in a 6 minute fight).

  11. #11
    Slight edit Beckx

    You are double counting cleaves from the explosion in the 5-target cases (other cases were fine). This will not alter your conclusions, only bring the two bombs a bit closer together.

    ie.
    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 15*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*15 = 548064 + 249120 = 797184

    should be (keeping consistent with earlier notation)

    Living Bomb: 5 ticks per bomb + 12*explosion cleave
    (33216*5 + 33216*5*0,1)*3 + (33216*5*0,1)*12 = 548064 + 199296 = 747360


    Also, NT's DPT will be a will unfortunately take a hit at the haste values mentioned above since you will not be GCD capped (LB has a 1 second GCD already), making LB more attractive.

  12. #12

  13. #13
    Another question: will BotH still be BiS for fire if using LB?

  14. #14
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It's great everyone is mathing out the bombs, but what about RPPM triggering?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by katmage View Post
    Another question: will BotH still be BiS for fire if using LB?
    As far as I know, BotH is actually not BiS for Fire. Should be Wush and Cha-Ye.

  16. #16
    High Overlord Neoxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannzenator View Post
    Slight edit Beckx

    You are double counting cleaves from the explosion in the 5-target cases (other cases were fine). This will not alter your conclusions, only bring the two bombs a bit closer together.
    That happens when you try to quick calc this in a 20 minute brake at work
    Thanks again, edited it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    NT on all fights.
    Might be true for frost, but cba to do the math for that

    edit: ok fuck it
    Frost Armor, 9522 haste (6 LB ticks and 17 NT ticks), raid haste, 35k spellpower, single target
    Living Bomb: 192706,8
    Nether Tempest: 150467

    That's a pretty big deal if you ask me ... maybe I do some math for frost later
    Last edited by Neoxx; 2013-05-21 at 04:31 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by awildpidgeyappears View Post
    As far as I know, BotH is actually not BiS for Fire. Should be Wush and Cha-Ye.
    Okay, problem solved!

  18. #18
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    At 18 ticks of NT (12684) I see NT doing 181242 single target, add in the extra ticks from the meta gem and heroism and consider RPPM triggering and it looks like frost can keep using NT.

    I see 5 targets at 815589 if you put it on 3, or 1132762.5 for 5 actual targets.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    It's great everyone is mathing out the bombs, but what about RPPM triggering?
    LB versus NT shouldn't matter that much for RPPM. The lower frequency of ticks from LB is countered by the higher percentage chance per tick or trigerring RPPM.

    Lets assume 45.88% haste (no meta proc yet) - and just gonna choose 1 rppm for ease, and only the dot ticks being the trigger:

    LB 3/1.4588 = 2.06 sec tick: 1 RPPM*1.4588*2.06/60 = 5.01% chance per tick to proc
    NT 1/1.4588 = 0.69 sec tick: 1 RPPM *1.4588*0.69/60 = 1.68% chance per tick

    In 2.06 secs, you'll have LB with 1 tick for 5.01% chance to proc, or NT with 3 ticks (in 2.07 sec) at 1.68% chance each is what, approximately 5.0% chance to proc at least once in those 3 ticks (0.9832^3)

    In short, because of the way RPPM works, which dot you choose doesn't matter, more haste matters, but not the tick frequency of the dot. Using LB for single target will be fine regarding RPPM, and in fact for Frost, will prolly get a small dps increase from easier refreshes without clipping and less missed/overwritten Brain Freeze procs.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2013-05-21 at 04:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    At 18 ticks of NT (12684) I see NT doing 181242 single target, add in the extra ticks from the meta gem and heroism and consider RPPM triggering and it looks like frost can keep using NT.
    That is correct for 40k sp...but LB at 40k sp would be 219226

    For 2 targets:
    LB - 478310
    NT - 543726

    For 3 targets:
    LB - 777255
    NT -815589


    Under metagem proc (at 12684 haste):
    23 ticks of NT for 231587
    8 ticks of LB for 292301

    As far as RPPM, it may be worth testing to see what avg uptimes we have on metagem and trinket procs for NT vs LB.

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