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  1. #1

    Proposed 10m vs 25m Raid Changes

    I posted this in a thread over at General Discussion, but I wanted to see what the "Raid & Dungeons" community thought of the idea as well:


    I miss PvE in Wrath (although I'm loving raiding right now), and I think we could adopt a similar model for future raid tiers.

    10 man normal - slightly easier than 25 man, lower ilvl, few "TF" drops, low chance for 3 drops per boss
    25 man normal - harder than 10 man, higher ilvl, more "TF" drops, 6 drops per boss
    10 man heroic - similarly tuned as 25 man heroic, reduced ilvl gap between 25man heroic and 10man heroic gear
    25 man heroic - slightly higher tuned than 10 man heroic, highest ilvl option

    25 man LFR - faceroll, keep as is

    I'm aware that people aren't happy with the current state of LFR, but I think it actually serves it's purpose as a way for people to experience content and catch up in gear.

    As a 10m raider, it stings to suggest that we get the "downgraded" version of the gear, but I think adding an extra "difficulty" of raiding currently solves two issues:

    1. It'll make normal raiding more accessible to family/friend/casual guilds. ToT is a great raid and our 10m team is progressing into heroics now, but I can see how more "casual" guilds may be getting stuck early in the raid. The fights (at least during normal progression) can be challenging for healers and our first few Iron Qon kills were DPS checks (~10-30 seconds from Enrage). Making 10m slightly easier, as they were in WoTLK, would help more guilds experience more content in normal difficulty - which is the difficulty that I believe Blizz wants the majority of the population to experience the content in (opposed to LFR as it is now).

    2. Making 10m easier will allow people to pug successful normal raids. Unless you are on a High or active Medium population server with a pool of good raiders, I would imagine forming a successful ToT raid is extremely difficult. Apart from Jin'Rokh, the bosses in ToT require a lot of coordination (interrupts on Horridon, target swaps on Council, etc.) that will cause a raid to wipe if not performed accurately. Fights shouldn't be tuned down to LFR levels where fight mechanics aren't needed, but they shouldn't be to the point where one mistake can cause an entire raid to wipe.

    10m progression guilds (like mine) shouldn't be neglected either, which is why I proposed a smaller gap between 10m heroic and 25m heroic gear. If the ilvl difference between 10 man normal vs 25 man normal gear is (hypothetically) 7 levels, as it was in WoTLK, the ilvl difference in heroic gear could be brought down to 3 or 4. The heroic fights in a 10m heroic raid would have to be easier to accomodate for a lower ilvl, but I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked to make sure neither raid size has an overall advantage.

    One last note - I proposed a chance for a 3rd loot drop in 10 man raids because RNG can be cruel and sharding loot after loot can be a bigger hinderance for 10m guilds vs. 25m guilds (at least in my experience).

    I believe these changes could address the decline in normal raiding that we've seen in addition to spurring on more community interaction.

  2. #2
    I, personally, do not want 10-man to be intentionally easier than 25-man. I don't raid 10-man because I want easy raids, I raid 10-man because it's a lot more fun than raiding 25-man. Note: I do actually raid both difficulties, one on each of my characters.

    If 10-mans were made easier than 25-mans, I think a lot of 10-man guilds would complain. It took a lot of effort to get Blizzard to make them as equal as they are now and it would be destructive to the 10-man community to revert that change. Note that the 10-man community is almost certainly bigger than the 25-man community at this point.


    A compromise: Make both 10 and 25-man normals slightly easier while leaving heroics at their current difficulty. Normal raids should still be punishing at times, but not quite as brutal as they can be. They should still be much harder than LFR.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Razecog's Avatar
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    How about no.
    Some fights are easier on 10, some on 25. They're different and cannot be compared, but that does not mean one of the sizes should get a gear advantage over the other.
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  4. #4
    I like this system, I would prefer if they solved the gearing issue by having bonus roll drops slightly more likely to be successful in 10 man. I also think I would prefer seperate lockouts but I don't think that is ever coming back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    but that does not mean one of the sizes should get a gear advantage over the other.
    They do already.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Well, currently 10 mans are tighter tuned than 25's accross the board (according to GC in an interview yesterday) so some changes their would be good.

    I think they could just drop the difficulty of all of it a notch or two and it would be good for the game in general.

    Changes to ilvl aren't a good idea because it entices people to put up with modes they aren't really interested in (increases burnout.) Though I think that mog gear for the highest mode is a better idea than items with player power on it as the seriously into endgame HC raiding tend to only be interested in the vanity aspect anyway.

    honestly. I think the biggest and best change they could make to raiding would simply be to reduce the amount of mechanics involved. Or pick high DPS/HPS requirements OR high mechanics and not have both. It's getting to be a bit overkill needing both all the time (especially as you say for F+F guilds who just want to basically hang out and have fun.)
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    I, personally, do not want 10-man to be intentionally easier than 25-man. I don't raid 10-man because I want easy raids, I raid 10-man because it's a lot more fun than raiding 25-man. Note: I do actually raid both difficulties, one on each of my characters.

    If 10-mans were made easier than 25-mans, I think a lot of 10-man guilds would complain. It took a lot of effort to get Blizzard to make them as equal as they are now and it would be destructive to the 10-man community to revert that change. Note that the 10-man community is almost certainly bigger than the 25-man community at this point.


    A compromise: Make both 10 and 25-man normals slightly easier while leaving heroics at their current difficulty. Normal raids should still be punishing at times, but not quite as brutal as they can be. They should still be much harder than LFR.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well, currently 10 mans are tighter tuned than 25's accross the board (according to GC in an interview yesterday)
    Could you link the interview? Would be interested in reading it...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    A compromise: Make both 10 and 25-man normals slightly easier while leaving heroics at their current difficulty. Normal raids should still be punishing at times, but not quite as brutal as they can be. They should still be much harder than LFR.
    What? Normals are brutal? Normals are perfectly fine! Easy for heroic raiders, and challenging but not overtuned for guilds just doing normals..
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  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordsphinx View Post
    Could you link the interview? Would be interested in reading it...
    It's the vid that was on MMO champ yesterday. Each ten man member is worth more than 25 man members are, apparently. Can't carry in 10's can in 25. Then made the point that this arrangement sucks for F+F guilds.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    I, personally, do not want 10-man to be intentionally easier than 25-man. I don't raid 10-man because I want easy raids, I raid 10-man because it's a lot more fun than raiding 25-man. Note: I do actually raid both difficulties, one on each of my characters.

    If 10-mans were made easier than 25-mans, I think a lot of 10-man guilds would complain. It took a lot of effort to get Blizzard to make them as equal as they are now and it would be destructive to the 10-man community to revert that change. Note that the 10-man community is almost certainly bigger than the 25-man community at this point.


    A compromise: Make both 10 and 25-man normals slightly easier while leaving heroics at their current difficulty. Normal raids should still be punishing at times, but not quite as brutal as they can be. They should still be much harder than LFR.
    10 man raids are popular because its easier to manage 10man raids, not because ppl like 10 man more. If they added a 4man raid, wouldn't it be more popular than 10,25man raids, if 4-man droped same ilvl as 10 and 25?

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xjev View Post
    10 man raids are popular because its easier to manage 10man raids, not because ppl like 10 man more. If they added a 4man raid, wouldn't it be more popular than 10,25man raids if 4man droped same ilvl as 10 and 25?
    That only means that LEADING a 10 man raid is more popular than LEADING a 25 man one.

    having done both, I know why.
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  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    i feel like this thread is to secretly want a nerf to normals. Normal difficulty is fine as it is in all honesty. ToT is one of the best raids because they are NOT a faceroll and mechanics MATTER. If people are hitting a wall it is likely a matter of execution not gear. Gear disparity b/w 10 and 25 is a bad idea. I don't disagree that the logistics of 25man is higher but there is also more room for error. 10man while have easier logistics have to be more tightly executed. 1 death in 25man usually won't matter, one death in 10 can mean a wipe. There is pros and cons to both and the current RNG-thunder-forge factor for 25 vs 10 is enough of a incentive and difference as a model for the future.

    10man community is "growing" because people have a choice as to what to do. Before (aka wrath) if you wanted the best you HAD to be 25 there was no choice. You needed to pug/recruit and /pray people will show up on time. 25 mans aren't dying. populated servers have more than one 25man progression guilds. low pop servers will likely stick to 10's. Bottom line is choice you should not punish 10's with the gear ilvl because they made that.
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  13. #13
    These 10 vs 25 man threads never end well.

    OP: No ty.

  14. #14
    As soon as you state that there should be higher item level in 25m, even if a small amount then your argument falls flat.
    That is exactly why it was changed in the first place, to stop 25m becoming a mandatory route due to better gear.
    If 25m is not popular now then it is only due to a community problem, one where they are too damn lazy to play a format for fun, but play the one which is easier to organise.
    Do not penalise smaller guilds with inferior gear.

    People keep bringing up the community argument, but it is the community which chose the route of least resistance.
    The community that practically killed world pvp when battlegrounds, more convenient and more rewarding en-masse pvp came along.
    The community that decided that shinier purples mattered above anything else.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-05-21 at 05:06 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    A compromise: Make both 10 and 25-man normals slightly easier while leaving heroics at their current difficulty. Normal raids should still be punishing at times, but not quite as brutal as they can be. They should still be much harder than LFR.
    I would say normals, if anything, are far too easy. 12/12 clear in a week, and I don't think we've wiped on any of them after the first week. Lei Shen a couple times but that's it. "Brutal" is not a word I would use to describe them.

    Perfect example of how you will never please everyone. Two people with completely different views on difficulty.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-05-21 at 05:11 PM.

  16. #16
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    What about no. I´m leading a semi-pro raiding guild since early wotlk and similar itemlvls in 10 man and 25 man came to me like a celestial gift. So much reduced organisation. be happy with the increased thunderforged drops.

  17. #17
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Wrath 10 mans were not least easier because you could do them in 25 man gear and ICC got nerfed (or players buffed) over time. 10 man with a 30% nerf and in 25 man gear ...

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 07:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    I would say normals, if anything, are far too easy. 12/12 clear in a week, and I don't think we've wiped on any of them after the first week. Lei Shen a couple times but that's it. "Brutal" is not a word I would use to describe them.

    Perfect example of how you will never please everyone. Two people with completely different views on difficulty.
    ..which is why we should look at bigger progression numbers.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    These 10 vs 25 man threads never end well.
    now guess why? because many people are not quite happy with how it is now.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    now guess why? because many people are not quite happy with how it is now.
    You can't please everyone, it's impossible. There's no way everyone will be 100% happy so there will always be threads like these. The important thing is "are they happy enough to keep playing", and for most people that answer is Yes.

  20. #20
    No. The issues here are many, but 1) 10 man shouldn't be intentionally easier, 2) with separate lockouts people with 25 man gear always went into 10s, stormed through and got acheivements and distorted progress, 3) people feel compelled to raid several levels if they're in a competitive guild.

    If they were going to change raids significantly I'd EITHER:

    1) Have 1 size, 15 man. Normal and Heroic.

    OR

    2) Leave it as is, perhaps with a 10 Easy mode for the very social, Friends and Family style guilds so that those people can again carry a couple of people who aren't up to it. Leave normal and heroic (and LFR) alone.

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