Proposed 10m vs 25m Raid Changes

[Nairobi]

But the extra DPS helps so much more when compared to 25m.

Getting a ~16% Raid DPS increase in 10m is much more significant than a ~5% Raid DPS increase on 25m.

I don't think you understand numbers.

A tank in 10man accounts for more % damage per capita than in 25 because of the size of the group. Let's say, for the purpose of this comparison, that all DPS/tank do even damage (yes, occasionally, tanks will beat out the DPS, but more often than not, DPS will be >= tanks. Besides...its not like you can stack tanks and win...):

10man with 1 tank, 7DPS, 2 heals: each non-healer does 12.5% of the raid's DPS.
25man with 1 tank, 19DPS, 5 heals: each non-healer does 5% of the raid's DPS.

Does that mean that the tank (or DPS) in 25man do less damage overall? Of course not. In fact, in all likelihood, they are HIGHER than in 10man due to factors like full buffs, raid cooldowns (banner(s), stormlash(es), etc at a higher rate than 10), and debuffs on boss that 10s don't always have. In our 10m, we frequently are missing up to 2 of 8 major buffs, have no warrior for banners/shouts, have no Symbiosis, have no sunder. Also, 25m tanks do a fair amount more damage than 10m tanks purely due to vengeance.

Yes, the example I posted above is for EZ math, real encounters can/do use more or less of each role, but the math remains the same.

Also, you did thrice-nerfed 10man normals with people who have been farming content: did you expect it to be hard?

[Belloc]

I would say normals, if anything, are far too easy. 12/12 clear in a week, and I don't think we've wiped on any of them after the first week. Lei Shen a couple times but that's it. "Brutal" is not a word I would use to describe them.

Perfect example of how you will never please everyone. Two people with completely different views on difficulty.

Please understand that I don't personally feel that 10-man normals are brutal. My raid had little issue clearing the place in a timely manner and we are now working on heroics. Look, however, at all of the "How do I horridon!?!?!" threads popping up on MMO and other forums. 10-man normals could stand to be slightly easier for those groups of players. Heroic raiders shouldn't really complain if normals are made easier because their end-game is heroics, not normals.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 07:58 PM ----------

Add 10 man "LFR version" and make it share lockout with 25 LFR; leave this 10man "LFR" version for f&f type group - require premade group rather than using the LFR tool. We can even add a little incentive to do 10man "LFR" - maybe low chance of TF lfr gear to reward the organizing effort.

This idea, while not being bad, is not very well thought out. Think about how destructive this would be to 25-man LFR. Every time a group of 10 people would get together to do LFR, that would be 10 people removed from the 25-man LFR pool. Imagine how many more 25-man LFR groups would fail as a result of this!

Further, factor in that most pre-made groups (not all, but more than not) are made of people who actually know what they're doing. Whether it be from the benefits that come with playing with a group of friends (improved communication being the key one... as long as one person in the group knows the fight, the rest of the group is going to be able to easily figure it out), these groups will have a higher chance to succeed and will improve at a faster rate. These are the people that you would be removing from the 25-man pool.

In short, an optional pre-made 10-man LFR would cause great damage to 25-man LFR.

[Deleted]

But the extra DPS helps so much more when compared to 25m.

Getting a ~16% Raid DPS increase in 10m is much more significant than a ~5% Raid DPS increase on 25m.

On the other hand, 25 man guilds gear up faster, (not to mention more thunderforged) so they already have a dps advantage.

[Deleted]

So since Population is speaking ...
The 20k ...right now 10-man guild's.......and descreassing....it's Quite Healthy for the Game?
Raiding population atm is ..300k People...looking Wow progress?
Raiding population as was in Wotlk was 2 mil???++??

People wanted 10-man beeing====25 man. Unhealthy as we see now.

I'm already laughing now seeing people that have..<Screw well sorry but this is the word) 25-man in order to do 10-man Heroic......... And now the guild is disbanded. PLayer's or better 2 say officer's... Now pay...2 play extras Migrate Ftw.

[Deleted]

the only thing i want to have changed is the rather crappy loot rng and bloated loottables that 10 mans have atm, i want the same change for an item to drop. dont get me wrong, 25 mans should still get 6 pieces of loot, and 10 mans should still get only 2 but you could allow 10 man bosses to drop 6 pieces of loot like in 25 man but only allowing you to pick 2 items, it will certainly make the loot RNG of 10 mans less brutal. when you've had a raidmember being forced to use an ilvl 471 staff from hc dungeons annd the way until now, then its just plain wrong and rng needs to be improved for loot.

[stgeorge78]

the only thing i want to have changed is the rather crappy loot rng and bloated loottables that 10 mans have atm, i want the same change for an item to drop. dont get me wrong, 25 mans should still get 6 pieces of loot, and 10 mans should still get only 2 but you could allow 10 man bosses to drop 6 pieces of loot like in 25 man but only allowing you to pick 2 items, it will certainly make the loot RNG of 10 mans less brutal. when you've had a raidmember being forced to use an ilvl 471 staff from hc dungeons annd the way until now, then its just plain wrong and rng needs to be improved for loot.

The 25-man gets 6 items, then 10 man should get 3 items. The excuse to give 6 was to make 25-man more desirable. It failed. 25s already get 4-5 TF items every boss, so that's enough of an advantage. Getting 2 items in 10-man, of which neither are ever TF, 1 is a repeat every week and the other is always for a class/armor type you don't have represented - it gets to be lame.

[Deleted]

3 pieces of loot is a bit overboard for 10m if you ask me. what you're asking about stgeorge78 can be easily solved by allowing 10m to pick 2 pieces of loot, but giving them the same amount of drops as 25m, basically giving you 6 options of which you can only pick 2. when you start to disenchant half your drops while your raidmembers still need to replace 5-10 pieces of their gear, then something is seriously wrong.

[Deleted]

You don't need more loot for 10M but you need some cover up options (which can also be applied to 25M).

Starting with universal tokens (they already had that on Al'Akir, remember?), checking for items nobody in your raid can even use (including offspeccs) and bringing back a Sunmote-esque exchance currency for niche items would be really great. But all those things have been suggested several hundreds of times and it looks like Blizzard still likes it enough the way it is. So you'll always have that one item that won't drop on 25M and some stuff that you won't get in 10M, deal with it.

[Deleted]

So since Population is speaking ...
The 20k ...right now 10-man guild's.......and descreassing....it's Quite Healthy for the Game?
Raiding population atm is ..300k People...looking Wow progress?
Raiding population as was in Wotlk was 2 mil???++??

People wanted 10-man beeing====25 man. Unhealthy as we see now.

I'm already laughing now seeing people that have..<Screw well sorry but this is the word) 25-man in order to do 10-man Heroic......... And now the guild is disbanded. PLayer's or better 2 say officer's... Now pay...2 play extras Migrate Ftw.

Yea it is rather funny somehow.

But well who cares soon it will probably only be one format left standing LFR. Because LFR is like so popular and like so amazing. And like some people write on the forum you can take 24 special friends with you into LFR and afterwards you will never ever have to see them again.
But if you end up in an LFR group with Taylor swift she will write a song about you^^

more on-topic: No the idea smells a bit like wrath, which is something that the special snowflake brigade from the 10 man circus will never accept. So unfortunatly learn to live with it, blizz apparently does not want 10 man normal mode to be beer league.
More items won't solve the problem. They wanted guaranteed drops and the drops that they want and need and they don't have to share with anybody and it has to drop like now and right away.^^
Maybe blizz schould just build in some kind of rep grinding system where at each tier you wil be guaranteed 2 items. And then in the future all bosses do is drop reputation^^ Congratulation there is no RNG anymore all you have to do is kill the entire instance 6-8 times and you can buy all your items from Lord Vendor^^

[Deleted]

I honestly do not know why anyone would want to raid 25 man should it be equally tuned with 10s.

[Deleted]

Nah, higher ilvl for 25mans is just gonna cause a shitstorm from all 10m raidgroups. It may have worked with wotlk but that was a long time ago now.

[Applenazi]

From what I have experienced, 10m is so much easier than 25m for ToT at least.

Hilariously false. Tonight after we 1 shotted heroic Council during which I watched two Twisted Fate adds make out with each other they were so fucking close I actually felt guilty how amazingly less punishing 25 man raiding is. You can just get away with so much, ignore multiple mechanics outright, ignore player deaths; its absolutely incredible to me that 25 man raiders can still delude themselves by claiming that what they do is the only "real raiding".

Your personal experience, as well as your progression, only illustrates the simple fact that finding 25 competent players is logistically harder than finding 10.

[Deleted]

10m (especially after the nerfs) are a lot easier than 25 mans.
This is not coming from me, but from the 10+ recruits we've had over the past 3 months, who used to raid 10 man.

So yes, i agree with OP, 25s should provide a higher ilvl, since, well, it's a different level of difficulty.

[Shtanky]

I think your proposal is solid and has merit. That being said, my personal opinion is that this current tier is REALLY good all around, with the following minor issues:

- I raid 10m. NORMAL Horridon and Tortos were overtuned. Taking 100 attempts to down Tortos, then 2 shotting Primordius and 4 shotting Twins felt ... wrong (for lack of a better term). Ramping difficulty is always nice and that felt a bit off, especially in relation to those 4 encounters.
- Dark Animus trash is harder than the boss. I don't mind challenging trash, but that pull is a bit ridiculous in comparison to any trash I've seen since Tempest Keep.

I can't speak for 25m, but that's my take on ToT.

No need to re-invent the wheel though, or you just end up back in a scenario where everyone feels pressured to run 25's like in Wrath, because that's where the good stuff is.

The existing format is ok IMO.

[Orion Antares]

This is a direct reply to the OP:

Leave 10 and 25 man normal and heroic as-is.
Leave LFR as-is.
Add a 10 man "Easy Mode".

The 10 man "Easy mode" would have the same mechanics as LFR and lower mob health such that 5 DPS that aren't good but are not afk can kill the bosses. Make the bosses drop LFR gear, 2 pieces just like the other 10 mans. They could also add in the Thunderforged option for this 10 man "Easy mode".

[brirrspliff]

There aren't many 25 player raiding guilds that only focus on Normal difficulty. These guilds usually try to get through Normal difficulty encounters quickly to move on to Heroic difficulty encounters.
There are a lot of 10 player raiding guilds that just focus on Normal content though, which means the players doing 10 player difficulty in Throne of Thunder struggled a little bit compared to the 25 player guilds.

hit the nail on it's head. this is what i see since they introduced the 10 man format. and it makes sense. now they just have to tune the game/raids for it!

edit @ post above:
no? why add ANOTHER difficulty? makes no sense...

[Orion Antares]

edit @ post above:
no? why add ANOTHER difficulty? makes no sense...

Because there are genuine guilds that do 10 mans the same way those guilds that are cited do 25 mans. If you want to cater to the people that don't want to do that, add the "Easy mode" level for them. That actually makes more sense than reverting to the old WotLK model. They could make it even more flexible and split the "Easy mode" lockout from the normal and heroic lockout. Just so there's the option that your buddy in that 10 or 25 man raid guild could come power your beer league through.

[fangless]

now guess why? because many people are not quite happy with how it is now.

Because everyone wants to believe they're a pro.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 12:33 PM ----------

Because there are genuine guilds that do 10 mans the same way those guilds you cite do 25 mans. If you want to cater to the people that don't want to do that, add the "Easy mode" level for them. That actually makes more sense than reverting to the old WotLK model. They could make it even more flexible and split the "Easy mode" lockout from the normal and heroic lockout. Just so there's the option that your buddy in that 10 or 25 man raid guild could come power your beer league through.

There's a reason why our item levels go up so much,we have 5 levels of epics. You want to add 1, possibly 2, more? Why don't we add in a super heroic too, and a casual heroic.

When does it stop?

They already mentioned that normal modes were a bit harder than they should of been for THIS TIER. It's been noted. They are aware. This is not an issue that has existed for years, it was this tier.

[Algearond]

I posted this in a thread over at General Discussion, but I wanted to see what the "Raid & Dungeons" community thought of the idea as well:


I miss PvE in Wrath (although I'm loving raiding right now), and I think we could adopt a similar model for future raid tiers.

10 man normal - slightly easier than 25 man, lower ilvl, few "TF" drops, low chance for 3 drops per boss
25 man normal - harder than 10 man, higher ilvl, more "TF" drops, 6 drops per boss
10 man heroic - similarly tuned as 25 man heroic, reduced ilvl gap between 25man heroic and 10man heroic gear
25 man heroic - slightly higher tuned than 10 man heroic, highest ilvl option

25 man LFR - faceroll, keep as is

I'm aware that people aren't happy with the current state of LFR, but I think it actually serves it's purpose as a way for people to experience content and catch up in gear.

As a 10m raider, it stings to suggest that we get the "downgraded" version of the gear, but I think adding an extra "difficulty" of raiding currently solves two issues:

1. It'll make normal raiding more accessible to family/friend/casual guilds. ToT is a great raid and our 10m team is progressing into heroics now, but I can see how more "casual" guilds may be getting stuck early in the raid. The fights (at least during normal progression) can be challenging for healers and our first few Iron Qon kills were DPS checks (~10-30 seconds from Enrage). Making 10m slightly easier, as they were in WoTLK, would help more guilds experience more content in normal difficulty - which is the difficulty that I believe Blizz wants the majority of the population to experience the content in (opposed to LFR as it is now).

2. Making 10m easier will allow people to pug successful normal raids. Unless you are on a High or active Medium population server with a pool of good raiders, I would imagine forming a successful ToT raid is extremely difficult. Apart from Jin'Rokh, the bosses in ToT require a lot of coordination (interrupts on Horridon, target swaps on Council, etc.) that will cause a raid to wipe if not performed accurately. Fights shouldn't be tuned down to LFR levels where fight mechanics aren't needed, but they shouldn't be to the point where one mistake can cause an entire raid to wipe.

10m progression guilds (like mine) shouldn't be neglected either, which is why I proposed a smaller gap between 10m heroic and 25m heroic gear. If the ilvl difference between 10 man normal vs 25 man normal gear is (hypothetically) 7 levels, as it was in WoTLK, the ilvl difference in heroic gear could be brought down to 3 or 4. The heroic fights in a 10m heroic raid would have to be easier to accomodate for a lower ilvl, but I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked to make sure neither raid size has an overall advantage.

One last note - I proposed a chance for a 3rd loot drop in 10 man raids because RNG can be cruel and sharding loot after loot can be a bigger hinderance for 10m guilds vs. 25m guilds (at least in my experience).

I believe these changes could address the decline in normal raiding that we've seen in addition to spurring on more community interaction.

I would like to see a return to the ICC model of raiding, and convert LFR to 10 man

[Deleted]

It's fine as is. Some fights are harder on 25 man, some fights are harder on 10 man.

The only issue there actually is mostly has to do with room sizes not scaling for each difficulty. 25 man Lei Shen is a lot harder than 10 man Lei Shen for this obvious reason.