Proposed 10m vs 25m Raid Changes

[Orion Antares]

There's a reason why our item levels go up so much,we have 5 levels of epics. You want to add 1, possibly 2, more?

No.

This is what I said:

Leave 10 and 25 man normal and heroic as-is.
Leave LFR as-is.
Add a 10 man "Easy Mode".

The 10 man "Easy mode" would have the same mechanics as LFR and lower mob health such that 5 DPS that aren't good but are not afk can kill the bosses. Make the bosses drop LFR gear, 2 pieces just like the other 10 mans. They could also add in the Thunderforged option for this 10 man "Easy mode".

They already mentioned that normal modes were a bit harder than they should of been for THIS TIER. It's been noted. They are aware. This is not an issue that has existed for years, it was this tier.

They said the normal modes were over tuned on release and have since tuned them accordingly. The normal modes aren't hard. The hardest part of the normal modes is getting everyone to pay attention to the things happening around them for the duration of the fight. That actually makes 10 mans harder than 25 mans for the simple reason that their is more slop room in a 25 man for some of the people to be tunnelers.

[Nairobi]

Scrap both, go to 15man (or 20, or 12, or 8...I don't care) as the ONE raid size and give it 3 difficulties:

LFR - Tuned for the "log in, queue up, see content, refresh sub" crowd. Drops (example) 496 loot. Can be queued up with a full group for a chance at TF-style loot, but then puts that group on a lockout with normals.
Normal - Tuned for "average" players, somewhere between as difficult as WotLK 10s and WotLK 25s. Drops 522 (with chance of TF). Shares lockout with Heroic (and LFR if full-group-queued).
Heroics - Tuned for the same audience as current, Drops 535 (chance of TF), shares lockout with normal.

LFR remains there for the community that it has created/fostered. It is a great tool for the majority of players who are interested in raiding to get their feet wet, and is a great way to prop up subs. Would like to see it not drop tier or trinkets, to keep the "unintended audience" out, for everyone's sake.
Normals return to their "beer league" status, at least for the first 1/2 of the raid. Later bosses should ramp up and prepare the group for the jump to heroics, but at least allow for PUGs and F+F guilds to get the first few bosses down, and leave something on the table to work towards/strive for.
Heroics remain as is.

I'd like to see ilvl get reigned in a bit too, with this model:

Tier X: LFR = ~496, Norm = 522, HC = 535
Tier X+1: LFR = ~515, Norm = 540, HC = 553
Tier X+2: LFR = ~535, Norm = 558, HC = 571

Obviously TF and valor upgrades makes that matrix really convoluted.

I'm saying this as a prior 25H raider, now current 10H raider, who genuinely enjoys the smaller atmosphere but would not mind moving back up. I just feel that ONE size makes it easier for EVERYONE to plan and balance around. Blizzard, Raid Leaders, recruiters, raiders, etc. Having generally accepted "norms" for # of tanks vs DPS vs healers would certainly help. Having one loot system and one set of mechanics and abilities to balance around would save time and frustration. Just seems so much easier.

[Deleted]

Even though im a 10 man raider atm and i personally think that this tier 10 man ended up being harder, i would love for blizzard to state that 25 mans are supposed to be the harder raid size and they actually make it like that, becuz i think a lot of atleast high end raiders would start reforming and goin back to 25 mans, I know i would do it atleast. Because 25 man just is more epic when you play it and when something is really challenging in a 25 man raid its just so awesome. I love raiding today but i will never have nostalgy about this tier, to me i only seem to have nostalgy for 25 mans. I know a lot of players that kind of share the same view but they are also raiding 10 man because its an option to a hard raiding environment and when theres no offical raidsize being harder then another one then more people will choose 10 man because of things such as computer issues, raiding with friends etc. Making 25 man officially harder would be that little push it actually needs and i dont see why it shouldnt happen since they have already made 25 man get better loot through the TF system and more loot per player in 25 mans.

[Oxyra]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...8#post21013008

Split lockouts, bring out same gear disparities and iLvl disparities as Korea/Taiwan. ie. 25man loot is 2/4 upgraded when dropped, 10man is 0/4. Esp. with the cheaper upgrade system, this means that upgrading to 4/4 for pure 10mans is easily doable.

Give people a choice to do both raid lockouts if they actually want to do both lockouts.

Imo, the best raid lockout system was ToC, although the raid itself wasn't that great. Having a separate lockout for 10man Normal, 25man Normal, 10man Heroic and 25man Heroic gave everyone the opportunity to PuG. You had your geared raiders PuGging with the community because they were bored and weren't saved to normals, carrying people through, there was a sense of community in Wrath more so than any other expansion, as shown by raiding numbers, because people were able to go in with so many random people into 25mans, without the risk of wasting their lockout for the week on 10man, meet new people, and actually play the game. Instead of this restriction because a few people feel the need to run both otherwise they're not min/maxing for their race to be Top 10 in the world.

GM: Okay guys, we cleared Jin'rokh 25man, yeah! Now everyone split into groups and let's go clear Jin'rokh and Horridon 10man so we can get all that min/max gear and push for 3/12 normals! /endsarcasm

[Deleted]

What they should have done is make MSV 10man only, and HoF, ToES and ToT 25man only. Then maybe add another 10man raid in 5.4.

[Raxxed]

The only thing the raiding scene at the moment is missing in my opinion is non-lfr raids for the supercasuals. I'm talking the people who play the game maybe 4-5hours a week.
Now you could say 'do lfr lel' but that's not fulfilling for them, or anyone. You end up with a bunch of pre adolescent kids who think they are LE FUNNEh TRoLL XDD. Is that seriously what the vast majority of the games community should be stuck with?

Add a 10man 'easy' mode. Like lfr, but a little tougher. Not as tough as normal modes.
This way the vast majority of the community can do a REAL (somewhat) raid with their friends or guild, have fun killing bosses and not brick walling on horridon for 4 months or dealing with the little shitheads you can find in LFR.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for hard raids, but from a financial and a logical standpoint adding something for the vast majority of players that they can do and ENJOY just makes sense. Dailies and LFR aren't fun. Raiding with friends and killing bosses is.

I apologise if this is snarky or offensive in any way, bit on-edge lately.

Edit: forgot to mention the possibility of ilvl scaling so people who don't have time to farm gear can still have fun without having to spend weeks to get the prerequisite ilvl.

[Deleted]

The only thing the raiding scene at the moment is missing in my opinion is non-lfr raids for the supercasuals. I'm talking the people who play the game maybe 4-5hours a week.
Now you could say 'do lfr lel' but that's not fulfilling for them, or anyone. You end up with a bunch of pre adolescent kids who think they are LE FUNNEh TRoLL XDD. Is that seriously what the vast majority of the games community should be stuck with?

Add a 10man 'easy' mode. Like lfr, but a little tougher. Not as tough as normal modes.
This way the vast majority of the community can do a REAL (somewhat) raid with their friends or guild, have fun killing bosses and not brick walling on horridon for 4 months or dealing with the little shitheads you can find in LFR.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for hard raids, but from a financial and a logical standpoint adding something for the vast majority of players that they can do and ENJOY just makes sense. Dailies and LFR aren't fun. Raiding with friends and killing bosses is.

I apologise if this is snarky or offensive in any way, bit on-edge lately.

Edit: forgot to mention the possibility of ilvl scaling so people who don't have time to farm gear can still have fun without having to spend weeks to get the prerequisite ilvl.

Personally I think it would be better for the game if they scrapped LFR and brought back the wrath system of raiding, then casual players can have a somewhat challenging content in 10 man normal raiding that they can do with other players. LFR ends up being 5-6 hours of single player "entertainment" each week and it simply isn't that fun.

Sure the people who are not world class raiders in 10 man guilds will cry out "but then we will have to do 25 man pugs" or "but then we will have to do 10 man pugs". Sure but you are already doing LFR on the side, so what is the difference. My experience in wrath comparred to MoP is that it was faster and more fun to run a pug than the current LFR que waiting game, then LFRing and then rinse and repeat.

And I am rather baffled by people claiming that LFR is optional but pugging wasn't optional back in wrath. They where both optional, but they where/are both places where you can get items to make your char more powerful, so that you felt like it would be a good idea to do them both. And because the latter is my point of view, I will have to say again that the way raiding was in wrath, was way more fun than the current system.

I am not a world class raider, I never was so I never finished a tier with full BiS, and for the majority of raiders they will never finish a tier with BiS. Therefor for the majority of raiders, they will always feel inclined to look at LFR and see that there they can get more powerful upgrades to their current gear and they will feel inclined to go into that rather annoying place. Sure it is their own fault that they want the rewards and that they torture themselves with the LFR experience, but in the end raiders will just leave the game. Which is probably good for their personal lives, since WoW can be a massive timesink

In the end bring back the wrath system with beerleague 10 man and 25 man raiding being the challenging mode. And throw out LFR.

[Alonzo33]

no , no and no .. wont happen

[Deleted]

No.

I don't like 25 man. My computer doesn't run it too well and I don't like the impersonal and crowded ambience of 25m raids yet I like to run heroic content, why should I be forced to raid in a raid size I don't like just so I can do the more challenging stuff?

[Deleted]

With the ideas regarding 10M lfr you tend to forget why it is 25M right now: the amount of tanks/healers needed. You can "carry" 17 dps through 25 man while you can only carry 5 dps through 10 man. Unless you always queue as/with tank/healer it's likely you already encountered the rather long waiting time during peak times. Now more than tripple that time to get a 10 man lfr raid rolling ... fun isn't it?

And don't underestimate the carry options, i guess it's rather save to assume that there are always 1 healer and some dps in your LFR who don't pay attention or just stick/afk. How do you want to translate that to 10M? Tune the fights around 7-8 people?

tldr; - i can't see it working properly

If you are into raiding you'll have to put some effort into it to make it work and have a challenge, if you're not and just want to fool around with some friends then LFR might be the thing for you. There's simply no way to have another difficulty level between to easy and challenging when most of the actual challenge comes from ilvl/enrage timers and not personal effort. As your raid gears up you'll meet the requirements to beat Horridon, Megaera and other roadblocks and thanks to valor vendors, heroic scenarios and upgrades it's faster than ever.

[Nobleshield]

I would say normals, if anything, are far too easy. 12/12 clear in a week, and I don't think we've wiped on any of them after the first week. Lei Shen a couple times but that's it. "Brutal" is not a word I would use to describe them.

Perfect example of how you will never please everyone. Two people with completely different views on difficulty.

I would argue that anyone who clears 12/12 in a week is far above "normal" level, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion of if normals are appropriate for the masses.

[Deleted]

How about this?

10man normal, higher difficulty then 25man normal. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.
10man heroic, higher difficulty then 25man heroic. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.

In this scenario the easier raiders (25man trolol) will still have equal itemlvl. Just abit less gear then the harder 10man raids.

[darkwarrior42]

If a new difficulty is needed, add it; don't destroy one of the existing ones.

Wanting challenge and preferring 10m raiding are not mutually exclusive.

[Oxyra]

How about this?

10man normal, higher difficulty then 25man normal. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.
10man heroic, higher difficulty then 25man heroic. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.

In this scenario the easier raiders (25man trolol) will still have equal itemlvl. Just abit less gear then the harder 10man raids.

wot.

/10chars

[Deleted]

It's already working like that.

[Deleted]

wot.

/10chars

You must be one of the 25 man groupies that thinks they have harder content, while Afking on boss kills etc?

[Oxyra]

You must be one of the 25 man groupies that thinks they have harder content, while Afking on boss kills etc?

You must have never raided in both difficulties at a current level?

I can tell you from experience that 10man and 25man Heroics are equally challenging, one is sometimes harder than the other due to off tuning.

If you honestly think that 10man is more difficult, you have honestly never raided progression or even close to it.

[hablix]

Normal: Harder than LFR, easier than current Normals
Heroic: Equal to current Normal
Challenge: Equal to current Heroic

Smaller ilvl gap between difficulty levels and tune encounters accordingly. For one thing, if the ilvl gap were narrower, it would be easier to pull in someone who geared up quickly in Normals/LFR into progression Challenge raids. Overall, make it even less about gear and more about skill than it currently is.

They can probably come up with other, clever incentives to prop up 25 mans other than dropping better gear.

[Deleted]

You must have never raided in both difficulties at a current level?

I can tell you from experience that 10man and 25man Heroics are equally challenging, one is sometimes harder than the other due to off tuning.

If you honestly think that 10man is more difficult, you have honestly never raided progression or even close to it.

And being 5/12 normal makes you entitled to an opinion? lol

[Oxyra]

And being 5/12 normal makes you entitled to an opinion? lol

Congratulations. You didn't read my signature.

Your blatant elitism shows to me that you're only like 4-5/13 Heroic tops. Congratulations. You're not even close to world top 100 or even US top 100.

Allow me to highlight. "Ex-Serious raider, now nearly 100% casual PuG leader." Sorry to say that I have RL studies that get in the way y'know.