Proposed 10m vs 25m Raid Changes

[Deleted]

How about this?

10man normal, higher difficulty then 25man normal. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.
10man heroic, higher difficulty then 25man heroic. 4 drops vs 5 in 25man. Significiantly higher chance to drop TF in 10man to reward more difficult content.

In this scenario the easier raiders (25man trolol) will still have equal itemlvl. Just abit less gear then the harder 10man raids.

Personally why make the format which is easier to organise into the hard format. Wouldn't it be better for the casual and friends if they had an easier to manage format.
Then those who are very dedicated to raiding can have the 25 man format which is harder to organise, but if they want to do the more challenging content, then i do not see it as a problem to also have the more organisationally challenging format.

I know the 10 man special snowflakes love to come with their superiority complex of everybody is 10% of a raid yada yada, but seriously that is just fun with percentages.

[Deleted]

I raid 10 man. I raided 25man during WotLK. Will be raiding 25man in the coming weeks. All I can say about the two difficulties is that Blizzard will have to tune T16 with the fact that 25man will be 4-5 ilvls higher from Thunderforged droprates. All that will do is make 10 man easier to a 25man guild that has disbanded late ToTT and gone 10 man.

[Valech]

Personally why make the format which is easier to organise into the hard format. Wouldn't it be better for the casual and friends if they had an easier to manage format.
Then those who are very dedicated to raiding can have the 25 man format which is harder to organise, but if they want to do the more challenging content, then i do not see it as a problem to also have the more organisationally challenging format.

I know the 10 man special snowflakes love to come with their superiority complex of everybody is 10% of a raid yada yada, but seriously that is just fun with percentages.

Oh I love how Miscam just turned around what people like you demand and suddenly it makes you uncomfortable.
10 man has Pros and Cons comparing to 25 man. I think nobody will argue that. You may have to deal less with organisation, but regarding the performance, everyone has to show what he´s made of. In 10 man as in 25 man. Hence, why just keep it the way it is. I can understand the higher chance of thunderforge drops in 25 man, and as a 10 man raider I do not feel uncomfortable with that. I´m just wondering what 25 man raiders will blatantly demand after a change of loot would have happend. Which hopefully won´t occur.

[Deleted]

Oh I love how Miscam just turned around what people like you demand and suddenly it makes you uncomfortable.
10 man has Pros and Cons comparing to 25 man. I think nobody will argue that. You may have to deal less with organisation, but regarding the performance, everyone has to show what he´s made of. In 10 man as in 25 man. Hence, why just keep it the way it is. I can understand the higher chance of thunderforge drops in 25 man, and as a 10 man raider I do not feel uncomfortable with that. I´m just wondering what 25 man raiders will blatantly demand after a change of loot would have happend. Which hopefully won´t occur.

Thank god some people can spot the invisible sarcasme sign, took a while.

[MrExcelion]

I raid 10 man. I raided 25man during WotLK. Will be raiding 25man in the coming weeks. All I can say about the two difficulties is that Blizzard will have to tune T16 with the fact that 25man will be 4-5 ilvls higher from Thunderforged droprates. All that will do is make 10 man easier to a 25man guild that has disbanded late ToTT and gone 10 man.

Random aside here, but do you think they'll have to tune it for everyone having their 600 cloaks too? Seems like it'll be a balancing nightmare either way. They'll probably just opt for heroic bosses without tight enrages again like they did in T15.

[Deleted]

Pretty much every fight this tier has been easier on 10hc, there's only a few that were more difficult on 10hc (Council / Megaera / Dark Animus).

Same thing for the previous tier, same with Dragon Soul, Firelands. It wouldn't make much of a difference.

[Rucati]

I vote for the leave it alone option. There's no reason that 10man should be easier, on a lot of servers finding a 25man guild is nearly impossible, so those people that are already on a completely terrible server shouldn't be punished even more for it by not being allowed to do content at the same difficulty as the higher pop servers.

Lots of people do 10man because it's far more fun to play with a group of friends and progress with them than it is to get 25 people, most of whom you don't have any type of friendship with, and play with them. They don't do it because it's supposed to be easier. It's harder on some fights and easier on some, that's how it will always be.

They should share a lockout, they should give the same gear, and they should be roughly the same difficulty. People that want to do 25's can do them, nothing is stopping them, they shouldn't feel entitled to better loot or a harder raid because they get more people together, getting 25 people to not do stupid stuff is hard enough on its own, so there's the increased difficulty.

Never really understood why people want 10/25 to not share a lockout, do you really want to spend 6 hours progressing in 25man just to split into two smaller raids, leave 5 people out, and then do the same fights again in 10 man? Doesn't seem particularly fun, sounds more like a job, which is what they're trying to avoid by making the raids share a lockout.

[Deleted]

I vote for the leave it alone option. There's no reason that 10man should be easier, on a lot of servers finding a 25man guild is nearly impossible, so those people that are already on a completely terrible server shouldn't be punished even more for it by not being allowed to do content at the same difficulty as the higher pop servers.

Lots of people do 10man because it's far more fun to play with a group of friends and progress with them than it is to get 25 people, most of whom you don't have any type of friendship with, and play with them. They don't do it because it's supposed to be easier. It's harder on some fights and easier on some, that's how it will always be.

They should share a lockout, they should give the same gear, and they should be roughly the same difficulty. People that want to do 25's can do them, nothing is stopping them, they shouldn't feel entitled to better loot or a harder raid because they get more people together, getting 25 people to not do stupid stuff is hard enough on its own, so there's the increased difficulty.

Never really understood why people want 10/25 to not share a lockout, do you really want to spend 6 hours progressing in 25man just to split into two smaller raids, leave 5 people out, and then do the same fights again in 10 man? Doesn't seem particularly fun, sounds more like a job, which is what they're trying to avoid by making the raids share a lockout.

No reason? About 2 millions reasons. Subscriptions have been in free-fall since they introduced this change. It's good for you personally, but not good for the vast majority.

The standard rebuttal to this is 'Old game, ect'. Ignoring the fact that taking 80,000 mostly 25 man guilds and changing them in 20,000 mostly 10 man guilds may cause players to quit en-masse. Game's don't suddenly get 'Old' and lose players, ask Eve Online - 10 years old and they've seen an increase in player activity.

10 man's aren't 'more fun' anymore, they were back in Karazhan when they were a lot easier. In Cataclysm when they were slightly easier, which is why people still enjoyed them - now that Blizzard have got the balance 'just right' in MoP, we've seen raiding almost die out.

10 man raiding has been Guild poison for the game. 25's man forced to downsize for better progression. 10's man struggling to raid casually in such a fragile state, where one member leaving causes the guild to fold. GC has stated that whilst 25's have always got 10 to drop to, failing 10 man Guilds just quit, with many not raiding again.

In summary. 10 man raiding has been bad for the game. Blizzard expecting it to boost raiding, instead it's destroyed raiding. People that stick to the fact that 10 man being the majority makes it 'popular' purposely ignore the fact that raiding guilds have been falling since it was introduced. People that say it's more 'fun' ignore the that fact that 80% of Raiders have quit rather than do it.

The old Wrath system was resilient, extremely popular, and it worked. With the way things are looking number-wise Blizzard can afford a switch back. It will cause player to quit, but then again 200,000 10 man raiders is a handful compared to Wrath's Millions of active players.

[Valech]

No reason? About 2 millions reasons. Subscriptions have been in free-fall since they introduced this change. It's good for you personally, but not good for the vast majority.

The standard rebuttal to this is 'Old game, ect'. Ignoring the fact that taking 80,000 mostly 25 man guilds and changing them in 20,000 mostly 10 man guilds may cause players to quit en-masse. Game's don't suddenly get 'Old' and lose players, ask Eve Online - 10 years old and they've seen an increase in player activity.

10 man's aren't 'more fun' anymore, they were back in Karazhan when they were a lot easier. In Cataclysm when they were slightly easier, which is why people still enjoyed them - now that Blizzard have got the balance 'just right' in MoP, we've seen raiding almost die out.

10 man raiding has been Guild poison for the game. 25's man forced to downsize for better progression. 10's man struggling to raid casually in such a fragile state, where one member leaving causes the guild to fold. GC has stated that whilst 25's have always got 10 to drop to, failing 10 man Guilds just quit, with many not raiding again.

In summary. 10 man raiding has been bad for the game. Blizzard expecting it to boost raiding, instead it's destroyed raiding. People that stick to the fact that 10 man being the majority makes it 'popular' purposely ignore the fact that raiding guilds have been falling since it was introduced. People that say it's more 'fun' ignore the that fact that 80% of Raiders have quit rather than do it.

The old Wrath system was resilient, extremely popular, and it worked. With the way things are looking number-wise Blizzard can afford a switch back. It will cause player to quit, but then again 200,000 10 man raiders is a handful compared to Wrath's Millions of active players.

First of all, I wonder where you get all those numbers. 80% of Raiders have quit due to their 25 man guild disbanding? Free Fall of subscriptions since they introduced that change? I just want to remind you, that that change was introduced Cata if I remember right. Subscription numbers fell, rose, fell again, rose again. Like, let´s sa... always since 2008. That pattern was visible far before 10 man raiding was introduced as equal to 25 man raiding.
Beyond that, I also wonder where you take the information that the loss of subscriptions and the change in game mode are coherent in the first instance. I can think of many reasons why people may have quit or taking a break and change in game mode is only a minor part of those reasons, if any. As long as you cannot provide me any significant (and this time not made up) pools which proof your statement, it´s just like with pirates and global warming: Since 1500 the number of Pirates sunk, but the average temperature of the earth rose. Hence, we should all become pirates, so that the temperature can sink again.

[Deleted]

No reason? About 2 millions reasons. Subscriptions have been in free-fall since they introduced this change. It's good for you personally, but not good for the vast majority.

The standard rebuttal to this is 'Old game, ect'. Ignoring the fact that taking 80,000 mostly 25 man guilds and changing them in 20,000 mostly 10 man guilds may cause players to quit en-masse. Game's don't suddenly get 'Old' and lose players, ask Eve Online - 10 years old and they've seen an increase in player activity.

False, like the poster before me said, the subs always rise-fall-rise- and then fall again. Just because you think this is because of equal itemlvl doesn't mean much tbh.

10 man's aren't 'more fun' anymore, they were back in Karazhan when they were a lot easier. In Cataclysm when they were slightly easier, which is why people still enjoyed them - now that Blizzard have got the balance 'just right' in MoP, we've seen raiding almost die out.

10 man raiding has been Guild poison for the game. 25's man forced to downsize for better progression. 10's man struggling to raid casually in such a fragile state, where one member leaving causes the guild to fold. GC has stated that whilst 25's have always got 10 to drop to, failing 10 man Guilds just quit, with many not raiding again.

Seriously, 25man guilds forced to downsize for better progression? Where do you get this nonsense? They downsize mainly because on so many servers it is pretty much impossible to sustain a 25 man group. Partly because 25man asks for better cpu, wich not everyone has. People can't be bothered to boost people anymore, wich happens in 99% of the active 25man's. And overall there are plenty of people that enjoy the value of a player in a 10man grp, it is much more personal.

In summary. 10 man raiding has been bad for the game. Blizzard expecting it to boost raiding, instead it's destroyed raiding. People that stick to the fact that 10 man being the majority makes it 'popular' purposely ignore the fact that raiding guilds have been falling since it was introduced. People that say it's more 'fun' ignore the that fact that 80% of Raiders have quit rather than do it.

The old Wrath system was resilient, extremely popular, and it worked. With the way things are looking number-wise Blizzard can afford a switch back. It will cause player to quit, but then again 200,000 10 man raiders is a handful compared to Wrath's Millions of active players.

25 man raiding is falling apart because of the unwillingness to deal with server pop issues. And the wrath system was horrible. I played 25 man there, just because 10 man was not rewarded like it should have been. And i gladly switched to 10 man in Cata because i enjoy it alot more. No more boosting, 25man on anything besides top level is horrible, and to reward those people again would be the death of this game.

[Deleted]

Stop giving 25s better & more gear.

Done.

[Deleted]

False, like the poster before me said, the subs always rise-fall-rise- and then fall again. Just because you think this is because of equal itemlvl doesn't mean much tbh.



Seriously, 25man guilds forced to downsize for better progression? Where do you get this nonsense? They downsize mainly because on so many servers it is pretty much impossible to sustain a 25 man group. Partly because 25man asks for better cpu, wich not everyone has. People can't be bothered to boost people anymore, wich happens in 99% of the active 25man's. And overall there are plenty of people that enjoy the value of a player in a 10man grp, it is much more personal.



25 man raiding is falling apart because of the unwillingness to deal with server pop issues. And the wrath system was horrible. I played 25 man there, just because 10 man was not rewarded like it should have been. And i gladly switched to 10 man in Cata because i enjoy it alot more. No more boosting, 25man on anything besides top level is horrible, and to reward those people again would be the death of this game.

oh you are being sarcastic again.

[Deleted]

oh you are being sarcastic again.

No, and thanks for your very constructive answer.

[Deleted]

Random aside here, but do you think they'll have to tune it for everyone having their 600 cloaks too? Seems like it'll be a balancing nightmare either way. They'll probably just opt for heroic bosses without tight enrages again like they did in T15.

They will have to balance 25man with the assumption of an average ilvl of 543 (Which for most 25mans farming 13/13 even from now, will be at 545 ish). 10 mans will see an average ilvl under that, due to loot saturation and bloated loot tables (ra-den as an example). The cloak will probably be factored in to all future boss enrage timers.

[Deleted]

It's a bit desperate some of the arguments people come up with to defend the current status quo.

Subs falling and rising? Look at any graph. The highest point is 2010, peaking at the Cataclysm release. Not surprisingly, Subs will always spike for an xpac, then fall off shortly after. This is normal xpac experience. Since Cataclysm the numbers have been falling, with a rise when MoP expansion was released. Server Pop issues? Odd how you claim sub numbers are Rising (as well as falling) but then go on about Server Pop Issues, which are a cause of falling sub numbers.

25's not downsizing for better progression. Every 25 man Raid Leader knows that they will get quicker progression if they take their best 10 and do what are generally easier fights. It's would be the same for 10 man Raid Leaders if there was a 5 man raid option.

In the end, you're opinions do not matter. Just read the front page for Blizzard's view on the Situation.

We felt the first tier was fine in 10 overall. Dogs, Elegon and Garalon required some hotfixes. ToT was a little too hard on 10.
It's tough because our stated goal is to make 10 and 25 equal difficulty since they provide same ilevel.
But the majority of 25 guilds are heroic guilds. That means 25s overall tend to be more skilled than 10s.
So even if the difficulty is the same, 10s end up feeling harder to their actual audiences.
Yet nerfing 10s adds to the pressure of having 25s just give up and run 10s since effort per reward is easier.
Tough problem to solve, which is why I sometimes opine if the ICC model of lower ilevel for 10s worked better.

By making the difficulty equal, they punish the average 10 man raiders who are generally less skilled than the average 25 man raider.

By making 10 man raids easier, they pressure more 25 man guilds drop down.

It's a bad situation, and the current situation of having 10 man guilds equal with 25 man is bad for the game. Even Blizzard want a return to ICC.

Something has to give, so come the next expansion - who will get thrown under the bus?
25 man guilds - described by Blizzard as good for the game and more epic.
10 man casual guilds - who need content tuned appropriate to their skill level.
10 man HC guilds - ???
I think we can all guess the answer to that one

We'll risk backlash when we think it's the right call for the game. Not sure that changing the 10 v 25 model is a clear win.

It's not a clear win. But's it's the best solution.

[laplacedemon]

Something has to give, so come the next expansion - who will get thrown under the bus?
25 man guilds - described by Blizzard as good for the game and more epic.
10 man casual guilds - who need content tuned appropriate to their skill level.
10 man HC guilds - ???
I think we can all guess the answer to that one

It's not only the 10man hc guilds though, 10s have a much bigger spectrum than that. From the guilds who can't get past Horridon normal to the ones who only raid normals or just a few heroics, it's quite the majority of the raiding population nowadays. We don't know if the mostly normal mode raiders are happy with the current difficulty settings or not as most of the people aren't vocal, especially when they're fine.

To make that change, they need to make sure that the number of people they are going to alienate is lower than the people they are going to make happy (unlike the time when they decided to equalize 10s and 25s) and it would last (again, unlike last time). I doubt even Blizzard has numbers for that and therefore they are afraid to make the call.

They can't just throw 10s under the bus like they did it with 25s just based on "25s are epic and it used to work". They did that with 25s and they practically don't have a 25man raiding scene anymore...

[Deleted]

You must be one of the 25 man groupies that thinks they have harder content, while Afking on boss kills etc?

There's no need for that really.

Yes, 10-man might be less forgiving when you have a single fuckup during progression (Infact, nearly impossible to kill bosses if you have a death since most likely one of those players brings buffs) but at the current gear levels you can easily kill bosses (including ra-den/lei shen) with 8-9 players alive for the kill.

None of us have "harder content" in that we've both had our fair share of hard bosses this tier (Council & DA in 10 / Twins & Lei Shen in 25) and actually one could argue that having the end-boss being harder in 25 could make the rankings unfair (Guilds like Apex that you're used to seeing in at least the top 20 actually outside it).

on topic: there won't be any major changes for the fact that most of the "minority" of top raiders are in 10-man now.

[Deleted]

It's not only the 10man hc guilds though, 10s have a much bigger spectrum than that. From the guilds who can't get past Horridon normal to the ones who only raid normals or just a few heroics, it's quite the majority of the raiding population nowadays. We don't know if the mostly normal mode raiders are happy with the current difficulty settings or not as most of the people aren't vocal, especially when they're fine.

To make that change, they need to make sure that the number of people they are going to alienate is lower than the people they are going to make happy (unlike the time when they decided to equalize 10s and 25s) and it would last (again, unlike last time). I doubt even Blizzard has numbers for that and therefore they are afraid to make the call.

They can't just throw 10s under the bus like they did it with 25s just based on "25s are epic and it used to work". They did that with 25s and they practically don't have a 25man raiding scene anymore...

I agree. but, they need to make 10 man's more tuned for the target audience. They can't do that while they are pegged at the same difficulty as 25's.

The current situation in 10 man is akin to what 25 man was like 2 years back, the rot is working it's way from the bottom up. This is due to a combination of comparable tuning with 25's and the LFR effect. To quote Ghostcrawler again:

When you have 10 players, every single slot is pretty precious. You can do things in 25's like kill a bunch of players and they can still succeed, where if you kill five players in a 10, it's probably a wipe. And just what I said before, that 25 has somewhere to go -- if it starts to fall apart, the guild can reorganize itself as a 10, or often a 25 will recruit again to fill the ranks back up, whereas all the time we see 10 player guilds that start to fall apart just fall apart. It's hard for them to back-fill their ranks and keep the guild going. We're worried that the path from 10 is 10 to exit, rather than 10 to a different guild to raid.

The path from a folded 10 man is exit. Rather than back into raiding to prop-up all the other failing 10 man guilds.

[Deleted]

There's no need for that really.

Yes, 10-man might be less forgiving when you have a single fuckup during progression (Infact, nearly impossible to kill bosses if you have a death since most likely one of those players brings buffs) but at the current gear levels you can easily kill bosses (including ra-den/lei shen) with 8-9 players alive for the kill.

The personal skill level of those 8-9 players has to be extraordinary, though.

[Pandacally]

As long as they do things the way that playing is fun, I dont care about 10/25 or whatever.