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  1. #21
    If you are the kind of player that needs the game to constantly tell you that you have done something good and "reward you" then GW2 might not be for you.

    Many people have a difficult time to play games just for fun these days. There must always been some kind of goal with a shiny reward at the end. On the other hand, the same kind of players can grind something for hours or days, constantly complaining about how boring it is, just to get a few "points" or whatever.


    Try to not look at rewards when you play GW2. It's not built that way. Instead look at the journey, and how much fun you have there. Now, some player may not enjoy the gameplay of GW2 either, and that is alright. Not everyone like the same games. Just try to judge GW2 by what it is, and not by how you have been taught to judge WoW and all games on consoles since the idea of achivements were born.

  2. #22
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Thats always the worst argument when it comes to Guild wars 2, that people do stuff just for fun. Everything in this freaking game gives a reward, everything gives you an incentive to do it, top end gear is earned by doing anything and everything, it really is the most ridiculous statement that people just do GW2 for fun whereas other games its all about the reward.
    People dont do Fractals for any other reason than people do dungeons in traditional MMOs, people dont participate in PvP for any other reason than in other traditional MMO's. Everything I do in GW2 is about getting a reward at the end, and Gw2 throws rewards in your face at every opportunity. Want to explore the world and discover jumping puzzles, well heres a chest reward, want to go take a castle in WvW well here have some Karma, experience and gold, Im trying to think of a single game that offers a reward for literally everything you do. GW2 is the epitome of a game for completionists and those seeking rewards for their endeavours. You want 100% map completion here is shit tons of gold, karma, experience, exotics etc etc.
    Dailies in GW2 are yet another example of chasing that reward, its so clear Im amazed people pull this idea out so often.
    The difference is the draw with traditional MMO's is the gear grind and the hope for better gear it is absolutely not because guild wars 2 is just a fun game and not about the 'reward'.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-05-22 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #23
    Did Arenanet revamp all dungeons yet?I remember hearing about this few month ago.

  4. #24
    Most people seem to need something tangible as a reward in order to it to be considered "fun". People won't do the content if there is no reward associated with it. This isn't just for GW2, it's for all mmorpgs (it's partly why I think mmos in general are terrible games). Would I have liked GW2 to be a utopian experience for an online game? Sure but that just will never happen for any mmorpg. However, I think the concept of "need" is quite a bit lessened in this game due to the mechanics and design choices. What am I trying to say about fun? It is entirely up the individual person to decide what is fun and what isn't.

    Dray, those rewards are really just a bonus. I mean I certainly don't do the jumping puzzles to get to the chest. I have so much karma now that I don't do events just for that karma. I don't know what to use my laurels on anymore so I certainly don't do the daily. Although with the daily I wouldn't bother if there was no reward associated with it of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al816 View Post
    Did Arenanet revamp all dungeons yet?I remember hearing about this few month ago.
    Only one that I know of so far is Ascalon Catacombs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Thats always the worst argument when it comes to Guild wars 2, that people do stuff just for fun. Everything in this freaking game gives a reward, everything gives you an incentive to do it, top end gear is earned by doing anything and everything, it really is the most ridiculous statement that people just do GW2 for fun whereas other games its all about the reward.
    People dont do Fractals for any other reason than people do dungeons in traditional MMOs, people dont participate in PvP for any other reason than in other traditional MMO's. Everything I do in GW2 is about getting a reward at the end, and Gw2 throws rewards in your face at every opportunity. Want to explore the world and discover jumping puzzles, well heres a chest reward, want to go take a castle in WvW well here have some Karma, experience and gold, Im trying to think of a single game that offers a reward for literally everything you do. GW2 is the epitome of a game for completionists and those seeking rewards for their endeavours. You want 100% map completion here is shit tons of gold, karma, experience, exotics etc etc.
    Dailies in GW2 are yet another example of chasing that reward, its so clear Im amazed people pull this idea out so often.
    The difference is the draw with traditional MMO's is the gear grind and the hope for better gear it is absolutely not because guild wars 2 is just a fun game and not about the 'reward'.
    Hahaha I love it, it's so true. Actually, it's really just the perfect example of 2 things:

    1) The game we're playing is not the same game that ArenaNet initially had in mind or told us to expect. (How much of this is attributed to pure PR vs. leadership/management/publisher conflicts and issues depends on who you talk to) Their intent according to the manifesto and the subsequent plethora of PR spin would tell you that there is no goal/reward except FUNN!!111!!1one1! ... but the game shows otherwise.

    2) The playerbase is also to blame, because 'amg, how dos i plaey a gaem just 4fun?' and need rewards for anything to be worthwhile... resulting in a game where we literally have to be rewarded for everything to minimize the crying and moaning of the playerbase, at the expense of quality.

    TL;DR - ANet sucks, the MMO playerbase at large sucks, and they have a symbiotic relationship of suck. (suckbiotic? Yeah, suckbiotic™) And that makes me bitter and whiny and in need of sharing those thoughts whenever I think too much about it, which luckily isn't all that often anymore.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    fractals and guild-missions would do that thing quite well
    No they don't. They are not endgame content.

    If you ask me the whole concept of endgame is flawed, keep people playing by gating them via better items to do more of the difficult stuff.
    This is a misunderstanding on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Because like you say the concept of endgame is flawed, fractals are not bimodal
    Actually Fractals are bimodal.

    They are a definitive example of a bimodal system, in fact.

    Endgame != bimodal systems.
    Bimodal systems != endgame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    how is fractals not endgame?
    They have no relevance outside of their singular mode.

    Endgame as a point of design is continued progression after an end point has been reached. Which is often a level cap but has also been in past concepts like meeting/completing a set of criteria within the game.

    Here are some examples:
    Everquest endgame: Level cap 90 -> content that progresses beyond 90. This would be penultimate content.
    Path of Exile endgame: Completion of all difficulty modes -> continued progression beyond the completion of the game. This is penultimate content.

    Difficulty, challenge, access and multi mode content are not necessarily endgame concepts.

  7. #27
    I don't think Gw2 has the same rewarding group play as Wow had, but there's so many things to do... i'm currently leveling my second character to 80, and i've played since launch.

    A couple of things comes to mind when thinking about it, the first is that if you have some friends or like minded people to play with, it gets so much more fun.
    I've taken many breaks from it, and that's also a great thing about it... you don't feel completely lost when coming back after 1 or 2 months.
    I used to play and raid in Wow but i'm not missing it at all... it was a fun time, but also very time consuming and sometimes not so fun after all.
    Guild Wars 2 is more about making your own experiences, but still there is plenty of the same ol' mmo features available.

    Guild Wars 2 does so many things right, but its just a game after all, i still think its one of the top active MMO's out at the moment.

    I think i understand why some lvl to 80 and get bored, but i just keep coming back for more... after taking a break.

  8. #28
    I've never seen the term "bimodal" used for gameplay... someone care to explain what that actually means in this context.

  9. #29
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Dray, those rewards are really just a bonus. I mean I certainly don't do the jumping puzzles to get to the chest. I have so much karma now that I don't do events just for that karma. I don't know what to use my laurels on anymore so I certainly don't do the daily. Although with the daily I wouldn't bother if there was no reward associated with it of course.
    Whilst I can agree that some people fine jumping puzzles fun enough to do for the sake of it, the reward is still there for the others, in response to karma, I could just as easily say that gear drops are just a bonus, particularly when farming content, I dont need that extra 6 i level to down farm content but its a nice bonus.
    People enjoy jumping puzzles some dont and just want the chest, some people enjoy LFR some people do it for the reward, not needing the reward yourself doesnt change the fact that GW2 hands you rewards on a plate, so for other people to suggest its a game that takes away the craving for rewards and makes you play for playings sake just seems a little obnoxious and very naive.

    And Drakhar avoid degenerating in to player bashing, I agree with points 1 and 2 but the last segment screams of disdain of the palyer base, which whether you like the game or not, the playerbase is a very broad group.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 03:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    I've never seen the term "bimodal" used for gameplay... someone care to explain what that actually means in this context.
    It means having 2 contrasting things, or 2 different modes so a game like Wow is bimodal, you have the 1-89 game which is different from the way you play level 90, I dont know what Fencers means by != I tend to read her posts with furrowed eyebrows as I try to rack my brain over her robotic take on gaming. Fractals are basically just dungeons you do from 1-80 so I dont get the bimodal but I really cant be arsed with a discussion with fencers, not because I think I'm right but its just makes my head hurt. I think because there is AR that it might be bimodal I think thats where I may be wrong.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-05-22 at 02:13 PM.

  10. #30
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    Sure, why not?

    Recently got into it, and loving it. Not like it'll cost you anything, other then a few updates.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Thats always the worst argument when it comes to Guild wars 2, that people do stuff just for fun. Everything in this freaking game gives a reward, everything gives you an incentive to do it, top end gear is earned by doing anything and everything, it really is the most ridiculous statement that people just do GW2 for fun whereas other games its all about the reward.
    People dont do Fractals for any other reason than people do dungeons in traditional MMOs, people dont participate in PvP for any other reason than in other traditional MMO's. Everything I do in GW2 is about getting a reward at the end, and Gw2 throws rewards in your face at every opportunity. Want to explore the world and discover jumping puzzles, well heres a chest reward, want to go take a castle in WvW well here have some Karma, experience and gold, Im trying to think of a single game that offers a reward for literally everything you do. GW2 is the epitome of a game for completionists and those seeking rewards for their endeavours. You want 100% map completion here is shit tons of gold, karma, experience, exotics etc etc.
    Dailies in GW2 are yet another example of chasing that reward, its so clear Im amazed people pull this idea out so often.
    The difference is the draw with traditional MMO's is the gear grind and the hope for better gear it is absolutely not because guild wars 2 is just a fun game and not about the 'reward'.
    But since everything rewards you, and rewards of you (relatively) equal value, you can play how you want (ie, for fun) and still get rewarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  12. #32
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    But since everything rewards you, and rewards of you (relatively) equal value, you can play how you want (ie, for fun) and still get rewarded.
    That doesn't differ from a traditional MMO in any regard, there are those who will do solely what they enjoy in any MMO especially GW2, but that doesn't stop what I would construe as the majority of people, for example, running to kill claw for the umpteenth time to get easy loot not for the pleasure (there is none) in fighting the boss. Nor does the fact that its a hell of a lot of fun to form a small group and cap in WvW, however the majority take easy and most rewarding route for loot and follow the blobs.
    Gw2 is still a reward driven game, it is still absolutely loaded with achievements that provide nothing but a time sink and people will chase that for the 'reward' the stance that people take that you just play the game for fun is in my opinion inaccurate and quite frankly PR spin.

    Just try to judge GW2 by what it is, and not by how you have been taught to judge WoW and all games on consoles since the idea of achivements were born.
    This is a ridiculous statement, probably the one I too most dislike to.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-05-22 at 03:48 PM.

  13. #33
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post

    I dont know what Fencers means by != I tend to read her posts with furrowed eyebrows as I try to rack my brain over her robotic take on gaming. Fractals are basically just dungeons you do from 1-80 so I dont get the bimodal but I really cant be arsed with a discussion with fencers, not because I think I'm right but its just makes my head hurt. I think because there is AR that it might be bimodal I think thats where I may be wrong.
    me neither, perhaps she thinks that you can do fractals at lv.80 only?! And they are relevant outside of fractals because the infusions aren't the only rewards you get, loot you get is still usable outside of that dungeon too.



    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    That doesn't differ from a traditional MMO in any regard, there are those who will do solely what they enjoy in any MMO especially GW2, but that doesn't stop what I would construe as the majority of people, for example, running to kill claw for the umpteenth time to get easy loot not for the pleasure (there is none) in fighting the boss. Nor does the fact that its a hell of a lot of fun to form a small group and cap in WvW, however the majority take easy and most rewarding route for loot and follow the blobs.
    Gw2 is still a reward driven game, it is still absolutely loaded with achievements that provide nothing but a time sink and people will chase that for the 'reward' the stance that people take that you just play the game for fun is in my opinion inaccurate and quite frankly PR spin.
    I disagree on something here:
    -) in other MMOS you might get rewarded for everything you do as well, but the reward doesn't scale with your level. When you're 80 in WoW for example, the rewards in zones <80 have no potential to be useable for you. In GW2 though, you might get a max. level rare or exotic weapon in a lv. 70 zone as well. Each chest can drop usable equipment, low level area or not.

    -) You're saying people run the Claw only for the easy reward? Well, why aren't there as many people in other chest-events too then? I haven't seen nearly as much running the flame shaman than running the Claw. I love the claw because it's damn impressive to fight a big dragon, not because of the rare loot... I'm quite a long time almost full exotic and don't care for a Legendary (at all).

  14. #34
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    The fire shaman sure is an anomoly, noone wants to touch that thing irregardless of loot, the behemoth the other day had about 10 people on it, today it had 40, possible api timers might help but the shaman has sat idle all day...I've never done it, I can only assume the encounter is so dreadful that people dont even want the loot.
    Im being a bit biased towards claw because I find it so tedious, the scale is grand, the execution monotonous, had 3 guildies who all came along typing /sleep every so often, I think its the constant spawn timers. Anyway I've deviated from the main topic, yes come back, like it or don't like it, youll not know if you dont try, its a bit like kissing a man, you'll never know...no wait thats not it.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    That doesn't differ from a traditional MMO in any regard, there are those who will do solely what they enjoy in any MMO especially GW2, but that doesn't stop what I would construe as the majority of people, for example, running to kill claw for the umpteenth time to get easy loot not for the pleasure (there is none) in fighting the boss. Nor does the fact that its a hell of a lot of fun to form a small group and cap in WvW, however the majority take easy and most rewarding route for loot and follow the blobs.
    Gw2 is still a reward driven game, it is still absolutely loaded with achievements that provide nothing but a time sink and people will chase that for the 'reward' the stance that people take that you just play the game for fun is in my opinion inaccurate and quite frankly PR spin.
    The thing is, everything rewards you (more or less) equally in GW2, while in other MMOs, different activities have different values of rewards. GW2 allows you to do pretty much anything you want to get (nearly) any type of reward you want (ascended gear is a slight outlier but being brought in line as time goes on), while every other game requires you to do a single activity (raid) to get the best rewards. That's the difference between doing something for fun vs for reward. Sure, there's often overlap between what's fun and what's rewarding, and it's quite subjective, but when rewards are comparable across the board, you're more able to do what you enjoy rather than what is most rewarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  16. #36
    Legendary! draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    The thing is, everything rewards you (more or less) equally in GW2, while in other MMOs, different activities have different values of rewards. GW2 allows you to do pretty much anything you want to get (nearly) any type of reward you want (ascended gear is a slight outlier but being brought in line as time goes on), while every other game requires you to do a single activity (raid) to get the best rewards. That's the difference between doing something for fun vs for reward. Sure, there's often overlap between what's fun and what's rewarding, and it's quite subjective, but when rewards are comparable across the board, you're more able to do what you enjoy rather than what is most rewarding.
    Yes I wouldn't disagree with that perse but I think saying that 'to get the best rewards' you have to raid is fine but you dont have to get the best rewards to have fun. I think were heading off tangent with the OP. I agree that GW2 offers more equality for your rewards but it doesnt mean people just run stuff for fun, I was merely being critical of this weird idea that you can log in to GW2 and just do stuff and have fun compared to other traditional mmos where you log in and do stuff for the reward. Its all one and the same between MMO's in general. The thing that draws me to GW2 right now and not WoW is the lack of gear grind, its simple as that, I certainly feel like i do very mundance tasks to get rewards in GW2 much like I did in wow.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    how is fractals not endgame? You'll get the best gear for doing them, lots of difficult dungeons and they're the hardest part of the game. How would you define endgame? Gating?
    You can get the best gear a lot of different ways and it's all pointless because there's never harder content to use it on.

    As for the OP, I can't really say anything encouraging. I log on each time there's a content patch and finish what ridiculously little there is for "content" within 2-3 days at most. It hasn't been very engaging or compelling in my opinion.

  18. #38
    It's the sweet thing with b2p, you can just login and check things out. Nothing is forcing you to stay if you dont like it, and you already bought the game so it wont cost you more than your time. I have the game installed on computer even if I dont play regulary. It's usually a downloaded patch away for me to login and check out some changes. I can say Im still anticipating some changes for me to start playing a bit regular, but I dont mind being able to check in every now and then just for the sake of doing it. You dont need expansions, you dont need subfee, so why ask? Just login and check around, spend an hour or two and see if you find something fun to do. Also this forum usually discuss upcoming patches and changes so if you dont like it when you tried it just read here and see if you find something interesting in a patch that you would like to check out, and then do it!
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    The fire shaman sure is an anomoly, noone wants to touch that thing irregardless of loot, the behemoth the other day had about 10 people on it, today it had 40, possible api timers might help but the shaman has sat idle all day...I've never done it, I can only assume the encounter is so dreadful that people dont even want the loot.
    Fire shaman is actually quite enjoyable, at least for me, especially if you only have a few people there. It's not faceroll, that's why people don't do it. A lot don't have the waypoints either. You can't just stand there and DPS, it will eat you alive.

    Im being a bit biased towards claw because I find it so tedious, the scale is grand, the execution monotonous, had 3 guildies who all came along typing /sleep every so often, I think its the constant spawn timers. Anyway I've deviated from the main topic, yes come back, like it or don't like it, youll not know if you dont try, its a bit like kissing a man, you'll never know...no wait thats not it.
    I don't like claw at all, it's just takes too long.

    Back on topic though, I think GW2 differs from other MMO's in what you said before. There is no end game, just game. You need to set yourself goals, the game won't do it for you. There is no gear treadmill to keep you logging in. There is the initial "goal" of getting to 80 but that's where it stops. After that, it's up to you to decide what you want to do. Level alts, world completion, fractals level 60, legendary, jumping puzzles, etc. I had a few friends who quit after getting to 80. About half of those who quit have started playing again, but this time, they are working towards something and that makes the difference. If you just wonder around hoping to be entertained, you are in for a disappointment.

  20. #40
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    You can get the best gear a lot of different ways and it's all pointless because there's never harder content to use it on.

    As for the OP, I can't really say anything encouraging. I log on each time there's a content patch and finish what ridiculously little there is for "content" within 2-3 days at most. It hasn't been very engaging or compelling in my opinion.
    pointless? how so? Just because encounters are possible with any gear doesn't mean that it's pointless. Enemies can one-hit you in this game too, you have to be skilled enough to hit the dodge at the right time and use your skills appropriately - gear doesn't save you from that in GW2. Imho thats one of GW2s strenghts, not a weakness.

    let's see... harder content...

    -) fractals get harder, much harder.
    -) in WvW good gear might definitely safe your ass, I've seen skilled players though who killed enemies naked.
    -) solo champions
    ...

    I agree that there aren't too much new event in the latest updates, but a new dungeon is quite nice and there is still the whole world which is relevant and more than 1600 events to experience. With all the monthly updates I can't say I was bored since release... but maybe people who only care for achievements, loot and world-completion tick offs (which aren't nearly all content there is, just a sidebonus) will get bored faster than the rest of us. Example: I've completed the Secret of Southsun achievements in a short time, I haven't seen all the events which are new there though.

    Defeat the riot-instigating settler. Active
    Help Advisor Zakk repair his golem and reclaim his training area. Active
    Kill the reef drake broodmother threatening the Lionguard. Active
    Help Laelia return to her settlement. Active
    Help Skeggi return to his settlement. Active
    Help Mikla return to her settlement. Active
    Help Nattus return to his settlement. Active
    Patrol with the Lionguard to secure the road. Active
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Active
    Kill the reef shark in Sawtooth Bay. Active
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Active
    Bring karka eggs to Owain. Warmup
    Defeat the riot-instigating settler. Warmup
    Fend off attacking karka and keep Fralloo's crab alive inside the circle. Warmup
    Help Lionguard Demolitionist Varrv plant explosives in karka nests. Warmup
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Warmup
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Warmup
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Warmup
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Warmup
    Clear the karka and their eggs to rebuild Camp Karka. Success
    Defend the settlement from the crazed creatures' attack. Success
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Success
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Success
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Success
    Quell the skirmishing between dissenting factions. Success
    Defend Camp Karka from karka invasion. Success
    Subdue and capture Ander "Wildman" Westward. Success
    Defend the settlement from rampaging, crazed wildlife. Fail
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Fail
    Defend the targeted victim of the angry mob. Fail
    quite a bit more content than the achievements might suggest
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